Bioelectromagnetics
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Experiments with pregnant rats were carried out by Andy Marino and published several decades ago. There was considerable abnormality of three generations, compared with similar unexposed strains. The brain is responsible for morphology it seems, but no one knows quite how. We have some speculative ideas, but I wont bore you with them here.
It also seems to me that one could explore the effect of E-waves (I do love that construction!) on the cells that comprise the mylen sheath in vitreo. In any event a cellular or animal model could be used. I don't see the problem. Dead rats are not quite as evokitive as dead children but they are moreso than dead cells.
It does seem to me that a solid benchmark experiment could be designed and executed fairly cheaply.
It does seem to me that a solid benchmark experiment could be designed and executed fairly cheaply.
cogreslab said:
Whoa, me thinks you are contradicting yourself here.
cogreslab said:
So, you use earthworms, but not mammals. But you still claim to know what's going to happen to an infant.
You have never run experiments on this, yet you claim to know what will happen, if an infant - not your own, of course - is placed under the lines.
Don't you see just how weak your argument is?
Two questions:
How, do you extrapolate the in vitro effects on cell cultures up to complete organisms?
The other's a bit off thread, I was looking at your site and noted this.
Just wondered where? I have the RO Faulkner 1969, OUP translation. I realise that the language is highly symbolic and it's suggested that there's lot of astronomical in there, but nothing springs to mind that could describe the cycles of renewal of civilization.
BTW. I don't want to divert the thread, just a quick pointer on the second, if it's quick and easy.
Edit for a silly typo.
How, do you extrapolate the in vitro effects on cell cultures up to complete organisms?
The other's a bit off thread, I was looking at your site and noted this.
Just wondered where? I have the RO Faulkner 1969, OUP translation. I realise that the language is highly symbolic and it's suggested that there's lot of astronomical in there, but nothing springs to mind that could describe the cycles of renewal of civilization.
BTW. I don't want to divert the thread, just a quick pointer on the second, if it's quick and easy.
Edit for a silly typo.
cogreslab said:
I am not disputing volume enlargement, I am disputing that mylenization would increase head circumference to the extent that it would be a significant impediment to birth. In fact I do not know for a fact what the impact would be, you made the claim after all. Incidentially, please, for the sake of serious conversation, do not dare suggest sin in others when you propose infant research that could be fatal.
That is neither here nor there. The issue is animal experimentation. Why not do the benchmark study?
Please Mr. Coghill. Don't you think that it 's tad ridiculous for you to complain that we do not answer to questions and we do not provide evidence to support our claims.
I don't know what Ed does for a living ( apart from collecting medieval armoury and "stealing" antiquities...) but I am a simple consumer who is worreid about your claims and I am willing to sponsor your experiment if you perform it on your child.
Does somebody needs to be qualified in order you address his concerns? Your web-site is filled with products and price tags and with horror stories about issues of public health.
You came here today as if you were addressing a bunch of school kids and offered us a way to earn easily 5000 dollars and now you complain and make ironic remarks for the posters!
It's seems that courtesy has left the building.
I don't know what Ed does for a living ( apart from collecting medieval armoury and "stealing" antiquities...) but I am a simple consumer who is worreid about your claims and I am willing to sponsor your experiment if you perform it on your child.
Does somebody needs to be qualified in order you address his concerns? Your web-site is filled with products and price tags and with horror stories about issues of public health.
You came here today as if you were addressing a bunch of school kids and offered us a way to earn easily 5000 dollars and now you complain and make ironic remarks for the posters!
It's seems that courtesy has left the building.
Physiol Chem Phys. 1977;9(4-5):433-41. Related Articles, Links
In vivo bioelectrochemical changes associated with exposure to extremely low frequency electric fields.
Marino AA, Berger TJ, Austin BP, Becker RO, Hart FX.
One hundred seventy-four 21- to 24-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats were continuously exposed to a 60 Hz electric field of 150 V/cm for one month in ten separate experiments. Biological effects observed included depressed body weights, serum corticoids, and water consumption. The findings are tentatively in terpreted as indicating that a power frequency electric field is a biological stressor. The observed effects cannot be a consequence of Joule heating and therefore indicate that electric fields can influence biological systems either at the systemic level, or at the cellular level via electrochemical alteration of the microenvironment.
I hope this asnswers you question.
I suggest that you all use Entrez Pubmed to check out Marino's work, so you can get a feel for the immense amount of research underpinning what I am casting before you, (even though some are not fitted to receive these pearls). Must go now. Other things to do.
In vivo bioelectrochemical changes associated with exposure to extremely low frequency electric fields.
Marino AA, Berger TJ, Austin BP, Becker RO, Hart FX.
One hundred seventy-four 21- to 24-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats were continuously exposed to a 60 Hz electric field of 150 V/cm for one month in ten separate experiments. Biological effects observed included depressed body weights, serum corticoids, and water consumption. The findings are tentatively in terpreted as indicating that a power frequency electric field is a biological stressor. The observed effects cannot be a consequence of Joule heating and therefore indicate that electric fields can influence biological systems either at the systemic level, or at the cellular level via electrochemical alteration of the microenvironment.
I hope this asnswers you question.
I suggest that you all use Entrez Pubmed to check out Marino's work, so you can get a feel for the immense amount of research underpinning what I am casting before you, (even though some are not fitted to receive these pearls). Must go now. Other things to do.
cogreslab said:
Excellent. Now we are getting somewhere. Now, what does 150V/cm correspond to? That is to say, if I have a 50,000 volt powerline above my home what would the energy impinging on me be?
You see, you can actually communicate, it just takes will.
davefoc
Philosopher
Mr. Coghill,
I think it is almost impossible to respond intelligently to your various claims because there are just too many and when the discussion focuses on one of them you immediately make another even stranger claim.
In the two threads that I have seen you take part in you have made claims concerning a wide variety of notions that fall well outside mainstream scientific thought.
You say that there is evidence for your claims and yet when I read a report that you said supported your claims the report provided an almost complete rebuttal of what you were saying. You selectively quoted out of that report to find almost the only verbiage in the report that could be seen to support your view.
You have made statements concerning electrical theory that are completely inconsistent with standard electrical theory and yet you claim that your years of working with technical people has allowed you to absorb a certain amount of technical expertise. So far nothing in any of your posts has demonstrated that you have absorbed anything of a technical nature in those years except an ability to toss out some technical buzzwords.
As to your challenge, I am somewhat at odds with many of the posters. I would absolutely submit my baby to such a challenge (admittedly my wife might shoot me first). I do not know that you are wrong to a certainty, but to the degree that it is possible to know something I believe you are wrong. The drive to take the baby to a place where the appropriate electric fields existed for the test would pose a far greater risk than your test.
You appear to be making a living selling completely useless crap. The claims for many of the devices that you sell would easily qualify for the JREF million dollar prize if they could be proven. I presume that you have not submitted any of these claims for testing. Why not? The publicity for one successful test would bring enormous wealth and fame to your institute and the benefits to humanity in general might be huge. I think the answer is obvious, at some level you know that your claims are crap and you don't want to face the truth.
I think it is almost impossible to respond intelligently to your various claims because there are just too many and when the discussion focuses on one of them you immediately make another even stranger claim.
In the two threads that I have seen you take part in you have made claims concerning a wide variety of notions that fall well outside mainstream scientific thought.
You say that there is evidence for your claims and yet when I read a report that you said supported your claims the report provided an almost complete rebuttal of what you were saying. You selectively quoted out of that report to find almost the only verbiage in the report that could be seen to support your view.
You have made statements concerning electrical theory that are completely inconsistent with standard electrical theory and yet you claim that your years of working with technical people has allowed you to absorb a certain amount of technical expertise. So far nothing in any of your posts has demonstrated that you have absorbed anything of a technical nature in those years except an ability to toss out some technical buzzwords.
As to your challenge, I am somewhat at odds with many of the posters. I would absolutely submit my baby to such a challenge (admittedly my wife might shoot me first). I do not know that you are wrong to a certainty, but to the degree that it is possible to know something I believe you are wrong. The drive to take the baby to a place where the appropriate electric fields existed for the test would pose a far greater risk than your test.
You appear to be making a living selling completely useless crap. The claims for many of the devices that you sell would easily qualify for the JREF million dollar prize if they could be proven. I presume that you have not submitted any of these claims for testing. Why not? The publicity for one successful test would bring enormous wealth and fame to your institute and the benefits to humanity in general might be huge. I think the answer is obvious, at some level you know that your claims are crap and you don't want to face the truth.
Wait a minute. I am having a problem with the units here. Is 150V/cm equivilent to having a conductor (with some sort of load presumably) one cm. from the subject? Is that right?
So does that mean that you would need a power line carrying 77,760,000 volts at a distance of 60 feet to be equivilant to 150V/cm?
I might have screwed up the arithmatic but I figure the equivilent voltage falls off as the inverse of the square of the distance.
Is this right?
So does that mean that you would need a power line carrying 77,760,000 volts at a distance of 60 feet to be equivilant to 150V/cm?
I might have screwed up the arithmatic but I figure the equivilent voltage falls off as the inverse of the square of the distance.
Is this right?
I am sorry I just saw that Bill. I think that things are crystal clear to the kind reader .BillHoyt said:
BTW where do you find this energy, do you use a static magnet or a crystal?
OMG!!! I was ready to ask you if you use a mood maker and I have just read what this is all about!!! I thought that it was something to make you feel better.
"Viagra eat your heart out"?
I thought that the phrase in English was tad different and it involved brains...
I did more probing around the site.
Homeopathy pops up, in a system for protecting you from the radiation from cell phone masts
At:
http://www.galonja.co.uk/asphalia/client/asphalia.asp
Further comment beyond wondering where the evidence for this all comes from is a matter for others
Homeopathy pops up, in a system for protecting you from the radiation from cell phone masts
At:
http://www.galonja.co.uk/asphalia/client/asphalia.asp
Further comment beyond wondering where the evidence for this all comes from is a matter for others
davefoc
Philosopher
Ed said:
Ed,
The electric field falls off as the square of the distance for a point charge.
The electric field falls off linearly with the distance for a line charge.
The confounding problem here, as MRC_Hans pointed out earlier, is that power is transported with multiple wires (two or three) and the field from one wire can serve to reduce the field of a wire with the opposite charge.
I might have a shot at doing the math here to make an estimate, but rather than embarass myself with a wrong approach I'll just say that if you're much closer to one wire than the other the electric field near you will fall off linearly with the distance from that wire. If you are much farther away from both wires than the wires are to each other the electric field near you will be the sum (vector sum since electric fields are vectors) of the electric fields and the field strength will drop linearly with your distance from the two wires.
Regardless of the math I saw an estimate of about a 1000 volts/meter near some high tension lines.
Frankly, I thought god would have known all this, but maybe with all the stuff going on in the world today, you just lost your focus a bit.
Ed,
The electric field falls off as the square of the distance for a point charge.
The electric field falls off linearly with the distance for a line charge.
The confounding problem here, as MRC_Hans pointed out earlier, is that power is transported with multiple wires (two or three) and the field from one wire can serve to reduce the field of a wire with the opposite charge.
I might have a shot at doing the math here to make an estimate, but rather than embarass myself with a wrong approach I'll just say that if you're much closer to one wire than the other the electric field near you will fall off linearly with the distance from that wire. If you are much farther away from both wires than the wires are to each other the electric field near you will be the sum (vector sum since electric fields are vectors) of the electric fields and the field strength will drop linearly with your distance from the two wires.
Regardless of the math I saw an estimate of about a 1000 volts/meter near some high tension lines.
Frankly, I thought god would have known all this, but maybe with all the stuff going on in the world today, you just lost your focus a bit.
Use it on whom, Cleopatra?Cleopatra said:I am sorry I just saw that Bill. I think that things are crystal clear to the kind reader .
BTW where do you find this energy, do you use a static magnet or a crystal?
OMG!!! I was ready to ask you if you use a mood maker and I have just read what this is all about!!! I thought that it was something to make you feel better.
"Viagra eat your heart out"?
I thought that the phrase in English was tad different and it involved brains...
Yes, I know that English phrase, and some of the strippers I know are very good at doing that to me. I ususally get my brains back in shortly afterwards, though.
I haven't a lot of time today, but, To Ed.
150V/cm is the same as 15,000 volts per metre. It is in the same order of magnitude as the unperturbed field beneath a 750,000 volt power line. People living in homes beneath say the 400,000 volt powerlines in the UK are mightily protected by the bricks and tiles of their home, but the field in an upper bedroom is still in the order of 70 V/m, and still therefore in my definition of hazardous. We have been measuring these fields for years with instruments traceable to NPL, and are sure of this fact about the size of an electric field inside a home beneath an HV powerline.
Yes I concede that worms are animals really, and so are bacteria with which we also experiment. I apologise for the misleading statement, What I was trying to say was that we do not do experiments with anything alive that can look at you.
To Cleopatra: I almost did that experiment with my fifth little boy by accident. When he was about six months old we would sleep him at night at the foot of the bed in his cot. One evening I noticed he was displaying all the symptoms of SIDS, (altered breathing, pallor etc) and I immediately went to measure the electric field there, which i found was a surprising 17 V/m compared with around 2/3 V/m in the rest of the bedroom. I traced it to the lighting circuit of the room below. We moved the cot about five feet to where the foiedl was normal and never had any further problems. If you read my website you should find accounts of some of the many other SIDS bedplace measurements I have made over the years. Unfortunately those incidents ended in the sudden unexpected death of the poor mites. Now Alex is four years old it is certain that his cerebral myelination is complete and he could withstand sleeping in the occasionally high E fields prevailing in modern society. As explained already the subject must be an infant, not a mammal, not an adult nor even a child. My challenge terms are quite specific.
150V/cm is the same as 15,000 volts per metre. It is in the same order of magnitude as the unperturbed field beneath a 750,000 volt power line. People living in homes beneath say the 400,000 volt powerlines in the UK are mightily protected by the bricks and tiles of their home, but the field in an upper bedroom is still in the order of 70 V/m, and still therefore in my definition of hazardous. We have been measuring these fields for years with instruments traceable to NPL, and are sure of this fact about the size of an electric field inside a home beneath an HV powerline.
Yes I concede that worms are animals really, and so are bacteria with which we also experiment. I apologise for the misleading statement, What I was trying to say was that we do not do experiments with anything alive that can look at you.
To Cleopatra: I almost did that experiment with my fifth little boy by accident. When he was about six months old we would sleep him at night at the foot of the bed in his cot. One evening I noticed he was displaying all the symptoms of SIDS, (altered breathing, pallor etc) and I immediately went to measure the electric field there, which i found was a surprising 17 V/m compared with around 2/3 V/m in the rest of the bedroom. I traced it to the lighting circuit of the room below. We moved the cot about five feet to where the foiedl was normal and never had any further problems. If you read my website you should find accounts of some of the many other SIDS bedplace measurements I have made over the years. Unfortunately those incidents ended in the sudden unexpected death of the poor mites. Now Alex is four years old it is certain that his cerebral myelination is complete and he could withstand sleeping in the occasionally high E fields prevailing in modern society. As explained already the subject must be an infant, not a mammal, not an adult nor even a child. My challenge terms are quite specific.
Re using cells rather than creatures: Exposing cells to ELF has also been done enough times to fill a book, and I point you (e.g.) to Dan Lyle's work in the 1980s which reported (both at ELF and RF frequencies) than within four hours the lymphocytes exposed to E fields of the same magnitudes as might be found under a powerline or near domestic electric appliances gave a significantly inhibited response to mitogenic challenge. (Refces: Lyle, Ayotte et al, 1983; Lyle, Schechter et al, 1988)
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