Bin Laden Dead Truthers Mourn

Hello, soldier here.

I have been in the army for 20 years, and spent nearly 3 years with an SF Unit. I have never used any kind of sniper rifle, but have been trained to use an SMG, SLR, SA-80 rifle, 9mm Browning Pistol, 9mm Sig Sauer 229 pistol, GPMG, MP5, HK53, and Chieftain/Challenger 120mm Main armament. Regardless of range, weapon, or SF scenario the drill when engaging ANY target is "aim for the centre of the observed mass". NEVER have I seen ANY soldier trained/training in shooting weapons from a combatant's hand, or shooting to wound. NO 'sharpshooter' in the WORLD would attempt this during the chaos of a firefight; are we seriously expected to believe that everybody involved would stand perfectly still, not firing, while someone carefully aimed at a pistol at the weapon in OBL's unmoving hand then shot at it hoping to disarm him? REALLY?! :jaw-dropp

I would suggest a 'sharpshooter' would be lucky to hit a static beachball at 20m if they were subject to effective enemy fire from the same distance - never mind a dime - simply because nobody would be so bloody stupid as to stand there in those circumstances and sight in on something that relatively small. Absolute idiocy, and completely non-existent outside a Hollywood film.


Check this out:

http://mythbustersresults.com/unarmed-and-unharmed

I actually watched this episode, and of the six times (shown) that they tried to shoot a weapon from someone's hand (replicating the forces involved), the weapon was only dropped twice.

I would suggest luck plays a big part in any firefight, but only an absolute IDIOT with a death wish would choose to rely solely on it for success.
 
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SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Hello, soldier here.

I have been in the army for 20 years, and spent nearly 3 years with an SF Unit. I have never used any kind of sniper rifle, but have been trained to use an SMG, SLR, SA-80 rifle, 9mm Browning Pistol, 9mm Sig Sauer 229 pistol, GPMG, MP5, HK53, and Chieftain/Challenger 120mm Main armament. Regardless of range, weapon, or SF scenario the drill when engaging ANY target is "aim for the centre of the observed mass". NEVER have I seen ANY soldier trained/training in shooting weapons from a combatant's hand, or shooting to wound. NO 'sharpshooter' in the WORLD would attempt this during the chaos of a firefight; are we seriously expected to believe that everybody involved would stand perfectly still, not firing, while someone carefully aimed at a pistol at the weapon in OBL's unmoving hand then shot at it hoping to disarm him? REALLY?! :jaw-dropp

I would suggest a 'sharpshooter' would be lucky to hit a static beachball at 20m if they were subject to effective enemy fire from the same distance - never mind a dime - simply because nobody would be so bloody stupid as to stand there in those circumstances and sight in on something that relatively small. Absolute idiocy, and completely non-existent outside a Hollywood film.


Check this out:

http://mythbustersresults.com/unarmed-and-unharmed

I actually watched this episode, and of the six times (shown) that they tried to shoot a weapon from someone's hand (replicating the forces involved), the weapon was only dropped twice.

I would suggest luck plays a big part in any firefight, but only an absolute IDIOT with a death wish would choose to rely solely on it for success.
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Hollywood got it right in the movie "Firefly". One of the characters is Jayne, she takes out someone with a leg shot and her partner says "Nice leg shot"... Jayne reponds... "I was aiming for the head".

That sums up the confusion in a fire fight... one of the core competencies of special forces is the ability to adjust in a compressed timeframe. Your summation is excellent... thx
 
Scott Jurgenson said:
I just read this whole entire thread again and as skeptical I am on just about every CS known to man, this whole killing of Osama is starting to bother me. The very few people on this board that know me know that I don't have a spnspiracy bone in my body..................................

Anyway, I agree with the whole if you're getting shot at shoot back stuff, however, I really wish they took this guy alive. Truthers will not shut up now about how we killed Osama to cover up his knowlege of how our own Government was responsible for 911. I have been reading the yahoo story comments and it's hard to debunk these kids right now. Specially since they put the body out to Sea within 24 hours (yeah Islamic custom whatever, if the guy killed / murdered thousands of people, which I believe he did, I think an exception could have been made).

I have a few questions...

1.) Is this going to spawn a massive terrorist response? (ie bombings, threats)
2.) Does anyone else who considers themselves a skeptic on this board feel they should have kept the body (even knowing it would become a memorial to many radial islamic fundamentalists)
3.) Is his death going to solve or qwell any of these conspiracy theories regarding 911?
4.) Does anyone else who considers themselves a skeptic on this board feel there is more to this story than we are getting?
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1. I don't think so. At least not in the west. Such massive rerror responses had been predicted on several occasions before, but didn't happen. AQ did not restrain itself lately just because we didn't kill OBL. However, some wild bombs will surely go off in Pakistan.
2. Yes, I think 10 hours till burial at sea was unnecessarily fast. Also, I read that Whabbism, the sect that Osama belonged to and that is state religion in Saudi Arabia, only knows incognito burial in earth, head facing Mecca. I can't see why they could not find him a secret site somewhere, inside the USA even. Yes, it would leak eventually... I'd take that risk.
3. As Trutherism feeds itself from everything and its opposite, that episode will add some whacko ideas. But I don't care
4. There's always more, especially with regards to the role of Pakistan, but I'd think not very much more.
 
I absolutely love this message board and I am very grateful for the multitude of responses. Sometimes my mind wants to wander and we are all so used to getting an absolute resoultion with things that happen in our life mostly by what we see in the movies / media.

The movies show us something happening and keep us guessing throughout the entire film and then give us a solid resolution in the end. (Obviously there are some like Inception that keep us guessing, however, most give us a solid ending). I think this leads to people wanting to have a definitive resolution to this whole "saga" and many feel unfufilled that there is nothing circulating where people can see with their own eyes what happened. The Sadaam hanging was a good example, though released unofficially, it gave people a sigh of relief to say yeah he's gone, the world is a better place without him.

I would be very interested to see/hear more about what the poster "TruthersLIe" has spoken with the students.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Hello, soldier here.

I have been in the army for 20 years, and spent nearly 3 years with an SF Unit. I have never used any kind of sniper rifle, but have been trained to use an SMG, SLR, SA-80 rifle, 9mm Browning Pistol, 9mm Sig Sauer 229 pistol, GPMG, MP5, HK53, and Chieftain/Challenger 120mm Main armament. Regardless of range, weapon, or SF scenario the drill when engaging ANY target is "aim for the centre of the observed mass". NEVER have I seen ANY soldier trained/training in shooting weapons from a combatant's hand, or shooting to wound. NO 'sharpshooter' in the WORLD would attempt this during the chaos of a firefight; are we seriously expected to believe that everybody involved would stand perfectly still, not firing, while someone carefully aimed at a pistol at the weapon in OBL's unmoving hand then shot at it hoping to disarm him? REALLY?! :jaw-dropp

I would suggest a 'sharpshooter' would be lucky to hit a static beachball at 20m if they were subject to effective enemy fire from the same distance - never mind a dime - simply because nobody would be so bloody stupid as to stand there in those circumstances and sight in on something that relatively small. Absolute idiocy, and completely non-existent outside a Hollywood film.


Check this out:

http://mythbustersresults.com/unarmed-and-unharmed

I actually watched this episode, and of the six times (shown) that they tried to shoot a weapon from someone's hand (replicating the forces involved), the weapon was only dropped twice.

I would suggest luck plays a big part in any firefight, but only an absolute IDIOT with a death wish would choose to rely solely on it for success.
Click to expand...

This makes perfect sense. The whole "shoot to wound or disarm camp" needs to read this and watch that video. We all can sit and say we'd want to take out targets in an effective way to disarm/wound, but when bullets are flying over head, I doubt anyone on this board would do anyting other than shoot to kill / save your own life.
 
ladmo said:
I am with you on this... have been in communication with some of my business partners who are located in Northern Africa and backlash is beginning to swell. Not that they liked bin laden, in fact they disliked him intensely, but the rationale of "dumping" (their word) the body at sea. Apparently, it is considered desicration to bury a Muslim in this fashion. I yield to thier knowledge but I couldn't care less about bin laden and his feelings.
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As per my students. You can bury a muslim at sea if there is no possibility of a "proper" burial within the time frame.

My students think his body should have been given to the pakistani PEOPLE, not the government. Their rationale is that many of the people of pakistan or afghanistan view him in the same light that brits viewed "robin hood."

Many of the students are under the false impression that the US just dropped the body over the ship to be ripped up by the propellers. When I went over what was in the newspapers (he had the proper rites, was washed, cleaned, wrapped in a white cloth and the proper prayer was said) they said it was ok. Many of them are filled with incredulity because they believe the US looked for him for 10 years and wouldn't give him the "honor" of a proper burial. They think the soldiers would have pissed on him, or worse yet, lit him on fire.
 
ladmo said:
Hollywood got it right in the movie "Firefly". One of the characters is Jayne, she takes out someone with a leg shot and her partner says "Nice leg shot"... Jayne reponds... "I was aiming for the head".

That sums up the confusion in a fire fight... one of the core competencies of special forces is the ability to adjust in a compressed timeframe. Your summation is excellent... thx
Click to expand...
Nit pick: Jayne is a man.
 
Scott Jurgenson said:
I absolutely love this message board and I am very grateful for the multitude of responses. Sometimes my mind wants to wander and we are all so used to getting an absolute resoultion with things that happen in our life mostly by what we see in the movies / media.

The movies show us something happening and keep us guessing throughout the entire film and then give us a solid resolution in the end. (Obviously there are some like Inception that keep us guessing, however, most give us a solid ending). I think this leads to people wanting to have a definitive resolution to this whole "saga" and many feel unfufilled that there is nothing circulating where people can see with their own eyes what happened. The Sadaam hanging was a good example, though released unofficially, it gave people a sigh of relief to say yeah he's gone, the world is a better place without him.

I would be very interested to see/hear more about what the poster "TruthersLIe" has spoken with the students.
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SJ.

What is funny is that last year I was teaching at Uni. My Uni students were 21 22 23 years old and most of them were going into engineering. My engineering students were very careful about what they said, and what information they used in discussions. They made sure they had citations to support their claims and that they tried to back it up.

This year I switched jobs and I am now teaching at a local high school. I am still teaching roughly the same material, but for lower grades. These students have NO information literacy skills.

One of them brought in a print out of the "photo" of UBL after he was killed. They then tried to tell me that the "photo" was photoshopped. It was. But it wasn't from the US government. They tried to say it was the photo that the US took of a dead Bin Laden. I had to post the correct links stating that no such photos have been released on facebook and direct my students to the correct facts all night long.

You bring up the Saddam execution video. My students are woefully ignorant of the facts (in most things dealing with the US, or the events in the gulf). Most of what they know is supposition, rumor and arguments from ignorance and incredulity.

My students swear to me that Saddam H, was tried by the US and executed by the US. When I point out the facts (it was an iraqi court, with iraqi legal system, and iraqi executioners) they reply, why did the executioners cover their faces? So even though I provide them with links to the correct information, they often gish gallop from one topic to another.

About 2 weeks before we had a great discussion about the guy in florida who burned a copy of the Qu'ran. My students were up in arms about how this was a desecration of the "holy" scriptures. As if that particular book was given BY GOD to man. They don't understand any of the freedoms that we take for granted.

A good example. One of my year 10 boys got into a huge fist fight with another year 10 boy. Blood everywhere, shoes flying, desks knocked over, one boy lost a tooth. Because one boy said that the others ones mother was his farq (I think that is how it is spelled. It translates directly into "little chicken" but the slang means "my bitch.") This rumble was because someone "used bad words" about someone else's mom. That was like...... 5th grade for me (and most americans, by year 7 you are told to grow up).
 
Scott Jurgenson said:
Truthers will not shut up now about how we killed Osama to cover up his knowlege of how our own Government was responsible for 911.
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You can come up with a dozen reasons why truthers won't shut up no matter what action was taken.

Besides, Osama wasn't exactly tight-lipped when it came to condemning the U.S. and he had nearly 10 years to say anything he wanted to say.

ladmo said:
Hollywood got it right in the movie "Firefly". One of the characters is Jayne, she takes out someone with a leg shot and her partner says "Nice leg shot"... Jayne reponds... "I was aiming for the head".

That sums up the confusion in a fire fight... one of the core competencies of special forces is the ability to adjust in a compressed timeframe. Your summation is excellent... thx
Click to expand...


1) "Jayne ain't a girl." —Jayne Cobb
2) He was also drugged up at the time.
 
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I fall into the 'wish we'd taken him alive' camp. But dammit, you have to be realistic. The odds of him being taken alive were longer than those of the Browns winning the Super Bowl.
 
1337m4n said:
Not only that, but isn't Osama the type of guy who would've PREFERRED to be killed rather than captured?

Martyrdom and 70 virgins and all that jazz, you know?
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I dunno if I agree. If that were so, how come he wasn't one of the pilots on 9/11?

The guy seemed like a chicken ****. Always hiding somewhere. Sending out secret videos about how much of a badass he was.

If he was so awesome, he would have walked out in the middle of Time Square with a dirty nuke strapped to his ass.
 
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ladmo said:
I am with you on this... have been in communication with some of my business partners who are located in Northern Africa and backlash is beginning to swell. Not that they liked bin laden, in fact they disliked him intensely, but the rationale of "dumping" (their word) the body at sea. Apparently, it is considered desicration to bury a Muslim in this fashion. I yield to thier knowledge but I couldn't care less about bin laden and his feelings.
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It's not. Sea burial is allowed when there's a risk of desecration. I don't know if any prayers were said, but the burial itself is permitted.
 
DGM said:
Not "flip-flopping", The actual truth being reported. Tends to go that way.
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but the original story came from official sources, and now other official sources are telling a different version of events. why are they so different?
 
therival58 said:
but the original story came from official sources, and now other official sources are telling a different version of events. why are they so different?
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Yes, "official sources" is media speak for anyone that looks official that will talk to them. After that it's "get it out before the next guy" and hope it's right. You don't actually think MSM is always 100% factual?
 
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JihadJane said:
'America after Osama bin Laden
I and my group of 9/11 victims' relatives hope we will take this opportunity to restore the US to the path of justice, not war'

"There are not many things I know to be absolutely true, but one of them is that violence begets violence. I suppose bin Laden's death proves the point. I and my fellow members of September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows want the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks brought to justice, but we believe justice is achieved in the courtroom, not on the battlefield.

I do not seek revenge, but rather justice – and these are two very different things. Bin Laden's death doesn't change the fact that my husband is dead. ..."
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I am sure that many relatives of those murdered by terrorists have the same opinion as above. I feel their sorrow and to a degree I agree with their wishes of a courtroom trial. Seeing these terrorists in court face to face may bring a little more comfort than seeing them spread all over the front pages of a daily rag covered in blood and bloated.

I don't quite see why you use such a quote from a clearly distressed family member in bereavement. What was your point? Why didnt you use the many live statements made by family members at GZ yesterday? Ya know the ones that cheared and clapped for OBL's death. Justice done they said. Human response to bereavement differs from person to person yet you use it here as some sort of victory flag.

Sick Jane, sick.
 
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