Bill to Ban (some) Body Armor

It probably falls under the right to self defense, which is a common law right.

Why are you so gung-ho to ban something that isn't even a problem?

The 2nd Amendment reads "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." I don't see a "right to self defense" per se in this wording. Nor any reference to armor. The places I looked up definitions list arms and armor differently.

I already cited several examples of "bad guys" wearing armor to protect themselves from police gun fire while committing serious crimes. Clearly better armor will protect them better. You may not consider this to happen frequently enough to justify a law, or you may have problems with the specifics of this particular bill. You might even conclude that it is not a "big" problem. But I would hardly maintain that it "isn't even a problem."

In fact, I don't recall stating in this thread whether I favor this bill or not. Frankly I am not particularly "gung-ho about this specific bill.
 
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I am then waiting for more police cars to star carrying service RPG's, their service rifles being ineffective.
 
The 2nd Amendment reads "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." I don't see a "right to self defense" per se in this wording. Nor any reference to armor. The places I looked up definitions list arms and armor differently.
I said it was a common law right. Do you know what common law is?

I already cited several examples of "bad guys" wearing armor to protect themselves from police gun fire while committing serious crimes. Clearly better armor will protect them better. You may not consider this to happen frequently enough to justify a law, or you may have problems with the specifics of this particular bill. You might even conclude that it is not a "big" problem. But I would hardly maintain that it "isn't even a problem."
I don't think you've shown any instances of Type III armor used, let alone how a few instances in a country of over 300 million justifies such a law.

How many criminals do you see ponying up over $1,000 for Type III armor?

In fact, I don't recall stating in this thread whether I favor this bill or not. Frankly I am not particularly "gung-ho about this specific bill.
You said you want a bill banning body armor:

I would prefer a bill that banned them both (because of the events previously documented here), and I could see an argument that it is silly to ban super armor and not regular armor, but your argument is actually the opposite direction from what is actually proposed.
 
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There's always the marksmanship solution, as noted by the inventor of modern soft body armor.

But as with the inclusion of service rifles in more and more cars to deal with body armor, if the 5.56mm rifles are insufficient they will need to step up to something more serious.
 
I said it was a common law right. Do you know what common law is?


I don't think you've shown any instances of Type III armor used, let alone how a few instances in a country of over 300 million justifies such a law.

How many criminals do you see ponying up over $1,000 for Type III armor?


You said you want a bill banning body armor:

Sorry, for the confusion, since the the post you quoted asked specifically about 2nd Amendment. But now, understanding you are invoking common law and not a Constitution: can one invoke common law to overturn in court the legality of a bill once passed by the legislature, such as might happen to the one under discussion? As you know, much common law is also limited to jurisdiction and interpretation; many are limited in terms of specifics (as far as I know, for example, one cannot legally buy a tank in the USA even for "self-defense"). My specific question (to which you responded) was if this bill violated the 2nd Amendment (with the idea that if true, it might be overturned by a court).

Are you proposing that if lower protection armor has already been used by criminals to evade capture, then still more protective armor would magically not represent a future problem? Why? If I wanted to rob a bank, I would certainly think that the added price is well worth while. I might easily get more money from the bank than the armor cost, and the value of not getting a bullet through my heart- priceless. Also, in a capitalist society, I would imagine that the more criminals use type III armor the cheaper it will become.

Yes, I said that I would favor a bill banning body armor, mostly for the reasons in the above paragraph. But I did not say that I favor this particular bill, and pointed out that one problem I had was that it did not go far enough. In the post of mine that you quoted, I referred specifically to the law banning type III armor in the same way that, in your own post questioning if there was a proven downside, that you also appear to have been referring specifically to type III armor.
 
That's not the argument I'm making. I don't believe it is required to prove that no criminal will ever use this kind of armor to show that banning this type of armor would be the wrong call.

I think this might be an ideological difference. I don't believe things should be restricted or banned unless it can be shown that both there is a plausible problem greater than the benefits, and that the ban or regulation would meaningfully address this. That criminals use this type of armor rarely if ever, and civilians use this type of armor rarely if ever, and this ban wouldn't even remove the rare uses by criminals, means I choose to err on the side of less banning.

Fair enough. I place a higher value on potential loss of life among police and civilians from misuse of armour than I do on the benefits of hobbyists or whatever being able to access it. There are lots of possibly hobbies that don't require things you can use to shoot it out with the police.

That presupposes that both that his bill would be good and that banning all body armor would be closer to the perfect.

It seems a fair supposition to me, with the qualifier that the good of this individual bill is not great.

Another use has been as safety equipment. Some at shooting ranges, especially those teaching new shooters, have vests for the instructors and students. Perhaps in such a ban would make exceptions for at the range. I'm betting I'm forgetting other uses too.

I've got no major problem with people keeping guns, body armour, bazookas and whatever else they want at a properly run firing range. I would support that as an exception.

You see this as incremental steps to gun bans and body armor bans, so even if this does absolutely no good in and of itself, it gets the foot in the door so to speak. I'll leave aside for now that I neither desire that outcome (although I would want what I would call demilitarization which differs from what you would call that I gather) nor believe it will come about. What I will say is that it's counter-productive if social engineering is the goal.

Complaints about "social engineering" and "counter-productive" are the standard talking points that US people come out with when their toys are threatened. "Social engineering" is in no way an inherently bad thing, and in fact "social engineering" is just a term people use to bad-mouth social progress without having to think or present a coherent argument. As for "counter-productive", I think that you are mistaking backlash for a programme being "counter-productive". Every time a productive social programme causes backlash, the backlashers claim their own resistance as proof that the programme is counterproductive.
 
Yea because an armed society is a polite society. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLZ4aKOExI And after all THIS is what the second ammendment is for.

Psh! That only happened once, and it wasn't even the exact same kind of body armour! Plus I bet they were using cheap automatic rifles not expensive ones, which means it is OPPRESSION to ban the expensive ones.

How is a criminal going to get an expensive gun anyway? It's not like they could steal them... oh wait.
 
Psh! That only happened once, and it wasn't even the exact same kind of body armour! Plus I bet they were using cheap automatic rifles not expensive ones, which means it is OPPRESSION to ban the expensive ones.

How is a criminal going to get an expensive gun anyway? It's not like they could steal them... oh wait.
It was home-made body armor and illegal rifles.

Maybe they should have been double-secret illegal?
 
Fair enough. I place a higher value on potential loss of life among police and civilians from misuse of armour than I do on the benefits of hobbyists or whatever being able to access it. There are lots of possibly hobbies that don't require things you can use to shoot it out with the police.

That framing is inaccurate. It is what you believe, but it is not reflective of the cost/benefit discussion. It is not 'dead cops and people' against 'your hobbies'. You're forgetting civilians saved by bullet resistant armor. You also vilify people again with the assertion that they should just find a different hobby because theirs can help in a police shoot out. People who would get into police shoot outs are bad so who cares about the hobbies of bad people. Such subtle wording tricks are very effective at putting things in people's heads while still being able to have some plausible deniable that you're using insults and vilification.

And those 'lots of hobbies' is smaller than you think. I mentioned kevlar stuff, but also homemade armor from tile kitchen backslashes and portland cement.





It seems a fair supposition to me, with the qualifier that the good of this individual bill is not great.

I'm aware you think that. I disagree.


I've got no major problem with people keeping guns, body armour, bazookas and whatever else they want at a properly run firing range. I would support that as an exception.


Why? At firing ranges people practice a hobby that's very useful in shoot outs with cops.



Complaints about "social engineering" and "counter-productive" are the standard talking points that US people come out with when their toys are threatened. "Social engineering" is in no way an inherently bad thing, and in fact "social engineering" is just a term people use to bad-mouth social progress without having to think or present a coherent argument.


That's true. That does happen. I did not use 'social engineering' as a pejorative. It is descriptive of what you want. In order to get an eventual outcome you desire that is not currently supported by society you advocate using incremental laws that are each less objectionable to slowly change social support.

Not every use of 'social engineering' and 'counter-productive' are as you say, and your attempt at well poisoning is noted. I've both thought and presented a coherent argument. That you reject it is neither here nor there.


As for "counter-productive", I think that you are mistaking backlash for a programme being "counter-productive". Every time a productive social programme causes backlash, the backlashers claim their own resistance as proof that the programme is counterproductive.


And every time an unproductive social program causes backlash, those advocating it hand wave opposition.

Backlash in and of itself doesn't prove that a program is good or bad, but backlash can indeed be a factor in making a program unproductive.

Your tactics are bad. Very bad. Let me try to explain this again, even though you seem dead set against understanding it. I don't want to carry a gun for defense. I don't want to own a gun for defense. If I was concerned, I'd rather carry a taser. I can't, they're illegal here. Failing that, I'd rather have mace. I can't, it's illegal here. Failing that, I'd want a bullet resistant vest to help me run away. You want people to stop using guns but also want to deny them all the alternatives. Doing this of course makes people defend what is left more. More importantly, it makes people turn to what's left. I don't want to carry a gun for defense, but if I had to worry about my defense, guess what, a gun is all that's left.

It also makes it really difficult to get reasonable things passed. The defense against the incremental 'small slice' tactic is strong opposition to every small stupid thing. You're making the NRA look rational. But some of us want reasonable regulations and restrictions. We have to convince people that they can have these reasonable changes without losing everything, but when the tactic is incrementalism, telling people that 'no one is coming for you second chance vest' becomes not only difficult, it becomes a lie. This is just like with the gun debate. Yes, people do want to take their guns and now those in the middle and on the side of less gun regulation have reason not to trust those of us who have for years said that no one is coming for your guns.

You don't want people using guns? Don't take away all the alternatives.
 
I don't know the general depth of knowledge of ISF members in the subject matter, but the debate over body armor/ammunition that can penetrate same, goes back to the 1920's in the U.S. with manufacturers trying different designs of "bullet-proof" vests and the commercial manufacturers of ammunition coming out with different types of projectiles in standard rifle and handgun cartridges to penetrate the vests.

In the beginning you're looking at nothing more than iron or steel plate cut into various sizes stuffed into canvas carriers hung over a person like a sandwich board, and the projos were in the main nothing more than jacketed "pointed" versions of what would normally be a round nose lead projo.

It's my understanding that both city cops and feds pretty much had to be ordered to wear the BA under threat of disciplinary action because the vests were so heavy and awkward that the general feeling was they were more hindrance than help - I've examined some of the old designs and my opinion is they'd be put to better use in weighing down bodies for water disposal than as officer safety gear.

Later on most departments and agencies retired the old style vests, but the idea never went away. Post WWII there wasn't much advancement, but during and after the Korean war some development of Flak jackets and vests using laminated nylon panels came around, and the idea took off through Vietnam, with some limited law enforcement adoption for warrant squad members etc, but the gear still wasn't up to protecting against actual standard service rifle caliber (non-AP) hits, but did provide protection against some lesser handgun calibers, shotgun pellets up to 00 buck and high velocity small metal fragments.

Similarly, there wasn't much development in armor piercing ammunition outside of HE shaped charge anti-tank applications, with most service rifle calibers on both sides of the Iron Curtain having steel core variations, not intended as anti personnel rounds but anti-material (vehicles primarily) and interestingly, post WWII the steel core 30/06 rounds proved to be more accurate for target shooting in the Garand and 1903A3 rifles than most FMJ ball rounds.

It wasn't until the late 1960's early 1970's that the landscape really changed, and it wasn't a benign discovery in a lab, on either end of the question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_(body_armor)

Richard Davis. who you can watch test his invention the hard way in my earlier post in this thread, was a pizza restaurant owner in Detroit that had been robbed repeatedly, the last time being engaged in a gunfight with multiple attackers in which he was shot several times, but managed to survive through good marksmanship and good luck. When things really go to **** and you live through it, that's usually the case.

Davis had a drive to find a way to protect "good guys" in the event they found themselves in the same situation he managed to live through - he had a name and concept before he developed the design. He wanted good guys - that by law and tradition had to wait before the "bad guy" made his play - a "Second Chance" to survive. He developed the first "soft" (believe me, "soft" can be a relative term) concealable bullet proof vest using the Kevlar material developed for radial tire manufacture. The things not only stopped most standard handgun and lesser rifle calibers, it could be manufactured in different "levels" of protection - Rich promoted and tested his products himself - in spectacular fashion as the video I linked to demonstrates - and single handedly created a market and the product and everyone in the BA market owes him a debt of gratitude.

On the other side of this question, and essentially out of non-LE, non-military view, three men that had concerns over officer/troop survival took it upon themselves to develop a projectile that when fired from a standard handgun in a standard handgun caliber (non-big bore magnum) would penetrate the then current automobile car bodywork and auto glass:

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt

"Kopsch: "There were a couple gunfights, police versus criminal,
here in Lorraine County, [Ohio]. The ordinary .38 Special service
bullet would not get through the car door. And with any degree
of obliquity, it bounced off the windshield. [Police] Lieutenant
Turcus, Don Ward and I thought maybe we could design a bullet
which would get through the car door, and get through the
windshield and get the crook out of the car ...


That was the genesis of KTW ammunition, later reviled in the media by a crooked politician as a "cop-killer" bullet, never mentioning to the public that it was designed by a cop, a coroner and an investigator to protect cops, but that's another story.

Where we're at here, is that Mike Honda has a bill that does nothing but sounds good to folks that don't know any better.

As a long time user of both military BA and LE BA, let me clue you in. Not only does this bill solve no problems, it's written by people who have no idea what they're talking about. An officer or troop today doesn't have "one" single level of BA - a trooper will have a strike plate and a plate backer - two separate plates that combined get to past level III, an officer will often have a soft armor carrier that can have a hard plate inserted over the chest area again getting to past level III threat protection completely negating the bills stated purpose as two separate purchases under the legislative threshold would get the end user past the legislative threshold.

This bill may or may not be approved, but it will not restrict access to BA by anybody, and an individual with evil intent will still be able to access various material that can be used to produce bullet resistant clothing, autos and structures.

It may however provide some level of satisfaction amongst folks that have no knowledge of the subject matter.
 
I don't know the general depth of knowledge of ISF members in the subject matter,.....
When it comes to guns or gun related topics, this forum is generally uninformed. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is that some people prefer to remain ignorant but are also more than willing to make up "facts" they have no reason to believe are true and behave like the rest of us are stupid enough to believe them. When asked for evidence to support their irrational claims, the result is more likely to be insults, denials or running away instead of a polite conversation.

Ranb
 
That framing is inaccurate. It is what you believe, but it is not reflective of the cost/benefit discussion. It is not 'dead cops and people' against 'your hobbies'. You're forgetting civilians saved by bullet resistant armor. You also vilify people again with the assertion that they should just find a different hobby because theirs can help in a police shoot out. People who would get into police shoot outs are bad so who cares about the hobbies of bad people. Such subtle wording tricks are very effective at putting things in people's heads while still being able to have some plausible deniable that you're using insults and vilification.

And those 'lots of hobbies' is smaller than you think. I mentioned kevlar stuff, but also homemade armor from tile kitchen backslashes and portland cement.

You're ramping up the emotional language but the actual argument isn't getting any better. I'm not "vilifying" people if I suggest that they could find a new hobby other than bullet-proof clothing or if I suggest that the social benefit of allowing a tiny number of people to pursue this niche hobby is small. That is simply not what "vilify" means.

Ironically, by your own use of that term you are trying to vilify me.

Is making home-made bulletproof body armour really that big a thing?

Why? At firing ranges people practice a hobby that's very useful in shoot outs with cops.

Sorry, did I not give you the feed line you wanted? Too bad.

That's true. That does happen. I did not use 'social engineering' as a pejorative. It is descriptive of what you want.

Well, no, it's a pejorative term solely used by people who want to talk down social change. Calling something "social engineering" rather than using a neutral term is, in your words, a subtle wording trick to insult and vilify.

In order to get an eventual outcome you desire that is not currently supported by society you advocate using incremental laws that are each less objectionable to slowly change social support.

Yes. I think all but the nuttiest of US gun nuts would be influenced positively if it could be shown that incrementally restricting the gun supply produces incremental social good.

Not every use of 'social engineering' and 'counter-productive' are as you say, and your attempt at well poisoning is noted.

Sorry who was well-poisoning again? You were the one suddenly talking about subtle wording tricks, and insults and vilification and well poisoning. It seems to me you are trying the old trick of using all the good insults first in the hope that onlookers will be confused about who started it.

And every time an unproductive social program causes backlash, those advocating it hand wave opposition.

Agreed. So why did you bring up backlash in the first place, if we both agree that backlash is neither here nor there?

Your tactics are bad. Very bad. Let me try to explain this again, even though you seem dead set against understanding it.

Personal insults are uncalled for. Your arguments are not very good, but insulting me will do nothing to improve them.

I don't want to carry a gun for defense. I don't want to own a gun for defense. If I was concerned, I'd rather carry a taser. I can't, they're illegal here. Failing that, I'd rather have mace. I can't, it's illegal here. Failing that, I'd want a bullet resistant vest to help me run away. You want people to stop using guns but also want to deny them all the alternatives.

Yup. In Australia you just flat out aren't allowed to carry a weapon, end of story. It's a nice, simple rule that solves a lot of problems. The sky has failed to fall, the UN black helicopters have failed to arrive, and spree killings with guns have dropped to zero since we restricted gun ownership.

It also makes it really difficult to get reasonable things passed. The defense against the incremental 'small slice' tactic is strong opposition to every small stupid thing. You're making the NRA look rational.

Oh please. You really think that the NRA would not oppose gun control if it came in one big lump, and is only fighting tooth and nail over every millimetre of territory because it's coming in small doses? That's hilarious. I mean, that's so dumb that it's not even worth arguing against, you should just point and laugh.
 
When it comes to guns or gun related topics, this forum is generally uninformed. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is that some people prefer to remain ignorant but are also more than willing to make up "facts" they have no reason to believe are true and behave like the rest of us are stupid enough to believe them. When asked for evidence to support their irrational claims, the result is more likely to be insults, denials or running away instead of a polite conversation.

Ranb

I've been around here more than long enough to know that and BTW, although the K baffle avatar was cool, that dog looks like a good one.

The drive to reject facts wrt any firearms related topic is a pretty standard reaction from any number of posters on any general interest forum and sad to say in certain firearms forums as well.

When I was taken to task on one gun centric forum for my opinion on the necessity of gun safes as a security measure, it was clear that willful stupidity wasn't the sole province of anti-gunners.
 
KL:

Oh please. You really think that the NRA would not oppose gun control if it came in one big lump, and is only fighting tooth and nail over every millimetre of territory because it's coming in small doses? That's hilarious. I mean, that's so dumb that it's not even worth arguing against, you should just point and laugh.

When every firearms owner hears this phrase over and over wrt any anti-Second Amendment legislation that gets passed:

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...8#q=it's a good first step in gun control law

Can you blame Second Amendment advocates for not endorsing any gun control measure?
 
I've been around here more than long enough to know that and BTW, although the K baffle avatar was cool, that dog looks like a good one.
My daughter's new puppy.

The drive to reject facts wrt any firearms related topic is a pretty standard reaction from any number of posters on any general interest forum and sad to say in certain firearms forums as well.

When I was taken to task on one gun centric forum for my opinion on the necessity of gun safes as a security measure, it was clear that willful stupidity wasn't the sole province of anti-gunners.
I found that out on a couple of gun forums; two for which banned me for my failure to knuckle under to those who felt their version of gun control/politics was the only right one.

Ranb
 
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You're ramping up the emotional language but the actual argument isn't getting any better. I'm not "vilifying" people if I suggest that they could find a new hobby other than bullet-proof clothing or if I suggest that the social benefit of allowing a tiny number of people to pursue this niche hobby is small. That is simply not what "vilify" means.

Ironically, by your own use of that term you are trying to vilify me.

I've read your post and posting style for long enough to be well aware you know how to use language for controlling a discussion. There isn't anything inherently wrong about that. However, your goal is to vilify and you are doing so be setting up small straw men and putting negatives next to the people you want to dismiss.

For example, you know or should know that the hobbies I referred to were not making home armor, but that the materials are shared. Yet here you pretend the hobbies I was talking about was making bullet resistant armor because that's an easier hobby to marginalize.

You're the one who started in on emotional appeals with your 'dead cops vs shootout helpful hobbies'. Your techniques simply aren't as subtle as you think they are. Accusing me of ramping up emotional language will not distract from your use of loaded language or appeals to emotion.


Is making home-made bulletproof body armour really that big a thing?


As noted several times, many of the armor cited by the various articles were stole or home made. Some more were commercial vests with kludges to be more protective and essentially home made. It's not a big thing, but it is employed by the criminals you don't want having armor.



Sorry, did I not give you the feed line you wanted? Too bad.

You were complaining about emotional language earlier...this post.



Well, no, it's a pejorative term solely used by people who want to talk down social change. Calling something "social engineering" rather than using a neutral term is, in your words, a subtle wording trick to insult and vilify.


What is the neutral term? 'Social engineering' is the neutral term as far as I know.



Yes. I think all but the nuttiest of US gun nuts would be influenced positively if it could be shown that incrementally restricting the gun supply produces incremental social good.


If you could connect them and if the social good happened without significant problems, yes. I don't think that will happen or would happen even with incremental restrictions.



Sorry who was well-poisoning again? You were the one suddenly talking about subtle wording tricks, and insults and vilification and well poisoning. It seems to me you are trying the old trick of using all the good insults first in the hope that onlookers will be confused about who started it.


I'm lost. How is that connected to what you quoted from me? And that last part is getting way too meta for me. You poisoned the well, use straw men, misframe, use emotional language and because I pointed those things out, I'm actually the guilty one because that's something people do.



Agreed. So why did you bring up backlash in the first place, if we both agree that backlash is neither here nor there?

Because in this case the backlash is a factor, and the backlash is deserved.



Personal insults are uncalled for. Your arguments are not very good, but insulting me will do nothing to improve them.


You are not your tactics. There was nothing personal about that. It was, by definition, about the ways you are making your argument and advancing your goals.



Yup. In Australia you just flat out aren't allowed to carry a weapon, end of story. It's a nice, simple rule that solves a lot of problems. The sky has failed to fall, the UN black helicopters have failed to arrive, and spree killings with guns have dropped to zero since we restricted gun ownership.


Actually tasers aren't illegal for civilians everywhere in Australia, and neither is pepper spray. Neither are many things that are in New York. There are many gun threads for you to dismiss the differences in the US that would make weapons bans much less effective, much more difficult, and probably bloody.

I have never argued anything about UN black helicopters or the sky falling. Your straw man, vilification, and emotional mockery are unwarranted.



Oh please. You really think that the NRA would not oppose gun control if it came in one big lump, and is only fighting tooth and nail over every millimetre of territory because it's coming in small doses? That's hilarious. I mean, that's so dumb that it's not even worth arguing against, you should just point and laugh.


I never made that argument. The argument I made is still there if you care to address it.
 

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