Bill Maher the anti-vaccinator

Rolfe said:
Forgive me for being simplistic, but I would have thought that serological testing would ensure that this wasn't exactly a great diagnostic challenge.

Rolfe.

tsk Now, serological testing can't detect GOOD natural antibodies because it is designed to test for EVIL artificial antibodies. Its part of the conspiracy by the AMA. Its all lies except when its evidence against vaccines when its the truth.
 
Regarding the quote in RichardR's post, I'll try to look into Dr. Bernard Greenberg's 1962 Congressional "testimony".

But I think the genisis of that testimony might likely be between the efficacy of the Salk polio vaccine (klled) vs. the Sabin polio vaccine (live), rather than whether polio vaccines were worthwhile. Salk & Sabin were definitely rivals, & when Salk's vaccine became the vacinne of choice in the US for the 1954 "trials" and the subsequent mass immunizations starting the following year, Sabin had to go overseas to try to prove his vaccine was superior to Jonas Salk's.

Each Doctor had their "own camp", and it's likely Dr. Greenberg was testifying on behalf of Dr. Sabin. I seem to recall some Congressional hearings in the early 60ties re whether the Sabin vaccine should be adopted as the preferred vaccine.

At any rate. Dr. Sabin finally got his vaccine licemsed in the US in 1962, and it, for various reasons, then became the polio vaccine of choice (kids like sugar cubes a lot more than shots) in the US.

At one site I found the number of reported cases of polio immediately post-vaccine introduction to be:

1955: 28,985 (first vaccination was in late April, with 4 million children vaccinated by August of that year).

1956: 14,647

1957: 5,984

In 1964, only about 130 cases were reported.

Although there were mass national free innoculations, certainly a lot of kids were not vaccinated for polio at the time even with the perceived success of the new vaccine. I can't seem to find out what the estimated participation percentage actually was.

As far as an uptick in meningitas cases post vaccine, google MFA-Statistics. This is the Meningitis Foundation's site & they have figures by year from 1985 thru 1994 from the CDC, and also apparently have figures for this disease from 1945 thru 1984 (which I couldn't access as I only have a modest WebTV).
 
Capsid said:
I am trying to find the source for the disease reclassification. I can only find the informaton in anti-vax sites. Anyone got a link?
I was given this: "Cecil and Loeb’s Textbook of Medicine, Tenth Edition, 1958, W.B. Sanders Company".

Unfortunately I don't have the 1958 edition, only 1959 on. ;)
 
Capsid said:
Meningitis just means inflammation of the meninges in the brain, bacteria and viruses can cause this and it is a common manifestation of enteroviruses of which the polio virus is one. See this review
Are you saying meningitis is just a manifestation of Polio and other infections? Is that the same as saying it is a symptom of these other infections? Could something be both Polio and Meningitis?
 
Are you saying meningitis is just a manifestation of Polio and other infections? Is that the same as saying it is a symptom of these other infections?
Yes
Could something be both Polio and Meningitis?
Polio is the name of the virus and the spectrum of symptoms it produces, meningitis being one of them.
 
Hope this isn't derailing, but

what motivates the anti-vaccine crowd? Contrariness? A desire to look smarter and more knowledgeable than others? Genuine delusion? Christian Science? (If there's a difference between those last two.) Of course the gurus of this unsavory movement get to sell books, tapes, lectures, healing crystals und so weiter, but they had to have some initial stimulus. What was it? Humble seekers ask, "WTF?"
 
Capsid said:
Yes

Polio is the name of the virus and the spectrum of symptoms it produces, meningitis being one of them.
Perhaps that is the source of these stories?
 
Mercury in fish: "U.S. Power plants account for about 40% of total U.S. manmade mercury emissions. Other large sources are industrial boilers (about 10% of U.S. mercury emissions), burning hazardous waste (about 5%), and chlorine production (also about 5%)." 1999 numbers, EPA FAQ (see link below)

I'm pretty sure I recently heard on NPR that due to regulations, mercury levels released by industry dropped dramatically in the 90s, so the overall amount released has also dropped, but mercury from coal plants has not improved.

EPA article
EPA Mercury in fish FAQ
 
Minor Illness (Abortive Poliomyelitis)

The most common form of disease caused by poliovirus is
characterized by fever, malaise, drowsiness, headache, nausea,
vomiting, constipation, and sore throat in various combinations.
This manifestation has been estimated to occur in 4 to 8% of
infections. Even during an epidemic, the diagnosis of
poliomyelitis cannot be made with assurance on clinical
grounds, unless virus is isolated or antibody development is
measured. Many other viruses may cause the same signs and
symptoms and may circulate during the same seasons as poliovirus.


Aseptic Meningitis and/or Transient Mild Paresis
(Nonparalytic Poliomyelitis)

In addition to the symptoms and signs of abortive poliomyelitis,
the patient has stiffness and pain in the back and neck.
Occasionally, there is mild muscle weakness or transient paralysis.
The disease lasts 2 to 10 days, and recovery is almost
always complete. About 1 or 2% of infections take this course
during epidemics. In a small percentage of cases, meningitis
advances to paralysis. It should be noted that a number of
other viruses, particularly other members of the enterovirus
family, also produce this syndrome.

Paralytic Poliomyelitis

The major illness constitutes the manifestations listed above
for aseptic meningitis plus persisting weakness of one or more
muscle groups, either skeletal or cranial. It accounts for about
1% of poliovirus infections. The onset of paralysis may follow
the minor illness after a symptom-free interlude or may occur
without an antecedent phase of illness. The predominating sign
is flaccid paralysis resulting from lower motor neuron damage.
Incoordination secondary to brain stem invasion may also occur,
and there may be painful spasms of nonparalyzed muscles.
The amount of damage varies widely. Usually, muscle involvement
is maximal within a few days after the paralytic phase
begins. Maximal recovery usually occurs within 6 months, with
residual paralysis lasting much longer, often for life.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=172894&action=stream&blobtype=pdf
The disease lasts 2 to 10 days, and recovery is almost
always complete. About 1 or 2% of infections take this course
during epidemics. In a small percentage of cases, meningitis
advances to paralysis.

1 to 2%. They said it was completely redefined as meningitus. That is completely false, and they claim that is what caused there to be 0 cases of polio. 1 to 2% of cases would hardly cause the polio cases to drop to 0 cases.

The claim is ridiculous.
 
Originally posted by Dragon
Actually I agree that you should leave the vaccine to those in the high-risk groups.
In years where there are enough shots, this is actually not appropriate. If enough people get the flu shots, then the number of flu cases will drop dramatically because the virus lack enough human vectors. By getting a flu shot, you may save someone else's life. This is especially important if you are around the elderly or children frequently.

Individual reaction to the flu varies tremendously. Last year my wife, my two children and I got the flu. We thought it was a minor cold until I checked the symptoms carefully (high fever and dry cough). Unfortunately, we gave it to my sister and she was sick for 3 weeks.

CBL
 
Re: Hope this isn't derailing, but

sackett said:
what motivates the anti-vaccine crowd? Contrariness? A desire to look smarter and more knowledgeable than others? Genuine delusion? Christian Science? (If there's a difference between those last two.) Of course the gurus of this unsavory movement get to sell books, tapes, lectures, healing crystals und so weiter, but they had to have some initial stimulus. What was it? Humble seekers ask, "WTF?"

Well, for Andrew Wakefield it was pure greed, and a way to become some kind hero martyr. He was paid by a lawyer to get specific results in his 1998 study involving 12 kids (some chosen by the lawyer).

If you do a google search on autism vaccine... many of the sites (including a paid one on the right hand side) are from law firms.

Then there is the general distrust of the "system". That has been around for a long time. I had an aunt who had books and brochures on the "tri-lateral commision", the benefits of laetrile and other such tripe. Some of the stuff I see on the literature I had already seen in print almost 30 years ago.

There are the folks who play the blame game and tend to mix up the facts. Like this gem that came over a listserv I belong to:
"And xxxx was damaged as a result of having over 8 g of mercury injected into his veins in the first year of life, and has never had so much as an ear infection" (the only thing I editted was the name)

This was in response to someone whose child almost died from RSV and who now has asthma --- AND who feels that the flu vaccine is very important for her children. Also, I have spoken to one mom of an older child like mine (17) who HAS the particular speech/language disability because actually contracting Hib as a two year old (which involved seizures, and he came close death).

Then there are idiot journalists and writers. I was at the orthodontist's office this afternoon and read this article in print:
http://seattle-city.parenthood.com/articles.html?article_id=7311 ... lots more fearmongering than facts, in my opinion.

Also, this is not new. Anti-vaccine sentiments have been around since at least the mid-19th century. This article from a UK doctor summerizes the history:
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA6D2.htm

editted to clarify
 
I had to go to casualty yesterday (fell in the bathroom and split my head open!), and I read a magazine article in the waiting room. The initial title was promising, in a perverse sort of way - "my baby didn't have MMR and she still developed autism". But guess what? The stupid mother just blamed it on all the other vaccines the baby had had!

So when I was being seen by the nurse and getting my head taped up, she said, surely your tetanus boosters are up to date, given your job. Well, no they weren't. She said, it's not a tetanus-risk injury, but on the other hand, maybe I better bring you up to date. I said, sure. She said, there's diptheria in this too, just because of all the international travel people are doing. Well, fine.

So, I've got mild concussion, I don't feel great, but I'm sure as hell it's got nothing to do with the vaccine.

Rolfe.
 
Originally posted by Capsid
Meningitis just means inflammation of the meninges in the brain, bacteria and viruses can cause this and it is a common manifestation of enteroviruses of which the polio virus is one. See this review

I am trying to find the source for the disease reclassification. I can only find the informaton in anti-vax sites. Anyone got a link?
So it's a case of "a retriever is a dog", and "a jack russel is a dog" too, but that doesn't mean that "retrievers are jack russels", no matter what some idiot says, or that they'd ever want to stop calling it a retriever for some absurd made up reason simply because the "gubmint" is evil.
 

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