Bill Gates and Vaccines

Cheers, quadraginta.

Here's a breakdown of the 2009 spending:
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/annualreport/2009/Pages/grants-paid-summary.aspx

Only $117,079 was spent on vaccine delivery.


http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/Pages/foundation-fact-sheet.aspx

The foundation has granted $23.9 billion since 1994 (as at September 2010).
Adding the $10 billion donation towards vaccines makes a total of $33.9 billion in grants.

$10 billion is not "the vast majority" of the sum total.


Oops, I'm doing Kaggen's work for him. :)


Not to mention that when I shared numbers with him, I was addressing his claim about "specifically vaccine research".

I don't count supporting vaccine delivery projects dedicated to wiping out the last surviving pockets on Earth of diseases like polio as "research".
 
Okay, first of all, the Bill Gates foundation is supporting agriculture.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/agriculturaldevelopment/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/annual-letter/Pages/2009-agricultural-development-africa-asia.aspx
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/annu...ow-bill-gates-innovations-in-agriculture.aspx
http://allafrica.com/stories/201102091101.html (in this one talks about how he pairs vaccinations with food programs to raise an entire area up - without going into the nitty gritty I'd say he overall not only agrees with !Kaggen, but is doing something about it, though I'm sure !Kaggen would find points of disagreement (I don't mean that in a perjorative way))

Second, the purpose in vaccination is not just to save the kids being vaccinated (though of course that is important). The main reason they are investing in this, rather than some other issue, is that the goal is eradication of the diseases. If they do this, the benefits are long lasting - that relatively small investment gets paid back year after year as thousands to millions do not die. It's kind of like fixing the foundation of your house before worrying about the significant plumbing problems you have. If populations are being decimated by extremely easily preventable diseases, it makes sense to address that before going on to more intractable problems, like agriculture.

Roger,thanks for addressing my concerns directly and positively.

I agree that Gates is making moves in the right direction as far as food security is concerned and have said as much and I compliment him and his foundation on this. I however would still like to see whether the approaches they are taking are sustainable.

Since my brother, being a Professor of Immunology at Oxford University, is a major beneficiary of the Gates Foundation grants for research on vaccines I certainly am aware of what you are talking about when it comes to the impact that a vaccine can have on healthcare.

I disagree with you though that vaccines are any more important than agriculture in reducing future mortality. Investing in sustainable agriculture now has a huge effect on future generations ability to feed themselves, that is why its called sustainable agriculture. Sure the short term high-input petro-chemical based agriculture which is common now is not sustainable and its ability to deliver in years to come is doubtful. For this reason I am still skeptical on whether the Gates foundation is investing in sustainable agricultural if they are consulting the current high-input agricultural experts who know nothing about long term agricultural sustainability.

As far as what I am doing about this problem. Well apart from spending the last 20 years developing techniques for farmers to grow high yielding crops without high inputs of petro-chemicals I am now introducing Probiotics Technology, which is common in the Far East, into Africa to maximize the potential for re-cycling organic matter into fertilizers for food security.
I have started a pilot in my hometown where we re-cycle 16 tons a month of food waste from the local university into vegetable production. The results so far are beyond expectation and due to this we are getting requests from all over South Africa and Africa to implement the same systems. I therefore have invested all my savings to start a company and build a factory to produce these Probiotics on a large scale. So if I respond infrequently on this forum it is because I have very little time to spend on the internet.
 
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/167619.php


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2009/childhood_deaths_diarrhoea_20091014/en/index.html
The report, Diarrhoea: why children are still dying and what can be done, lays out a seven-point plan that includes a treatment package to reduce childhood diarrhoea deaths and a prevention strategy to ensure long-term results. The seven specific points are:
* fluid replacement to prevent dehydration;
* zinc treatment;
* rotavirus and measles vaccinations;
* promotion of early and exclusive breastfeeding and vitamin A supplementation;
* promotion of hand washing with soap;
* improved water supply quantity and quality, including treatment and safe storage of household water; and
* community-wide sanitation promotion.

I guess the less glamorous methods don't appeal to Mr Gates sensibilities as they decentralize the responsibility, something all his money comes from avoiding.

Oh and why is this in the science section or are we finally admitting science is guided by money and opinion?
Why didn't you highlight vaccines as well? They are also recommended. But more importantly, how shall impoverished residents gain access to supplements, potable water and soap? Vaccines are a front line measure to reduce mortality and morbidity thus enabling populations to live, increase lifespan and begin transitioning to a reduction of population.

So if you want to spend a lot of money on one way to save lives, you have to spend lots of money on every other ways to save lives otherwise there is something wrong with spending lots of money to saves lives.

Stupidest argument ever.
Agreed.

I've provided you with evidence as to how diseases had decreased substantially and were on a huge decline when penicillin etc was discovered. Obviously you just ignored my 'mumbo jumbo' article.

If you have an article on antivaxxer nutjobs killing people by encouraging them to not get vaccines your welcome to share. If you also have one on people dying because they didn't get a vaccine you can share that as well.
A tired anti-vaxx trope; improvements in medical care did not decrease morbidity, they helped to decrease mortality but levelled off. It wasn't until the introduction of vaccines that both morbidity and mortality were significantly reduced; in some cases, more than 99%.

I was thinking strawman again, but now I am thinking you just don't understand what I am saying.

Let me try again.

The issue I am interested in is saving lives.
Starvation is arguably a bigger killer in children than all diseases combined.
Solving starvation is what I think should receive the majority of any funding "to save lives".
I admit that Bill Gates can and does do what he likes with his money.
He is spending the vast majority of it on specifically vaccine research, which for sure does save lives. However if saving the most lives was the goal of his foundation then I think they should be spending most of their money on eliminating starvation.
You tell me I am wrong and Gates is right because vaccines save lives and
then assume I am anti-vax, because I am critical of the way they spend their money.
What is rational about that?
You keep bleating on about measures that, in a perfect world, should be implemented. But you neglect the fact that the targeted areas do not have the infrastructure or political stability to sustain agriculture, irrigation systems, roads and continuous, potable water supplies. That is not to say that the Gates Foundation isn't attempting that as others have pointed out. But he's picking his battles with the aid of experts. While your efforts are noble and I wish you success, I don't think you are considering the barriers to which you propose in lieu of medical interventions first.

Este
 
How can one have a brother who is a professor of immunology at Oxford, and be an anti-vaxxer?
 
How can one have a brother who is a professor of immunology at Oxford, and be an anti-vaxxer?

If it helps one's argument on the internet, one can invent happen to have all kinds of convenient relatives.
 
Food for thought:

Pick sanitation over vaccination in Haiti



http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v470/n7333/full/470175a.html
There actually is no proof that this is actually a viable technique. In fact that article neglects to mention that some anti cholera campaigns and attempts to introduce clean water made the situation worst than if they hadn't done this. One such example is Balngladesh where ironies of all ironies the shallow water aquifers that this guy says are dangerous ended up being safer than the water aquifers that were deeper and supposedly safer. It wasn't anyone's fault either.
 
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So if I respond infrequently on this forum it is because I have very little time to spend on the internet.

Does that also explain why you've neglected to reply to any of the posts which have shown you to be wrong, or to be deliberately misrepresenting the evidence you've presented? It's just a coincidence that the posts that you don't have time to reply to are the ones which rebut your arguments, or show them to be dishonest?
 
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I disagree with you though that vaccines are any more important than agriculture in reducing future mortality..
I think it is important to note that I did not say they were more important - I was saying that they are more a current and immediate concern. At the moment they have several diseases "on the run" so to speak - with several more years of effort they have every chance of eradicating the diseases. Whereas, if we stop or reduce efforts, the diseases will have a chance for a comeback, and all previous work will be largely wasted (I say largely because of course the individuals that were vaccinated benefit from the vaccination - but the goal is not vaccination so much as eradication).

It's not a foregone conclusion that these diseases will be eradicated - the Gates foundation is fighting against local religious prejudices, for one thing. But it is reasonably possible, and would be a great result if achieved.

Let me try for an agricultural analogy. I'm sure it'll be off in some aspects because I am not in the field - grant me that. Suppose there was a blight that, with a few years work, could be eradicated. The blight has the possibility for some localized starvation if the towns do not have a lot of various crops, etc. And, we have the science to completely eradicated the blight, but it will take some money. Doesn't it make sense to attack this problem, now, while it is tamped down and amenable to eradication, even though we of course have longer term issues with sustainability, production yields, etc? Ignoring the blight will just let it get worse, and waste all of the effort made on it to date.

IOW, it makes sense to put money, sometimes a lot of money, towards a smaller problem if we can completely eliminate that problem. It's not a judgment that the longer term stuff is unimportant, or less important.

And things like polio are anything but 'small'. It used to be a devastating disease, and a global problem, with epidemics sweeping across countries. I assure you that you would not want yourself or anyone you know to have it. We have fought against it to the point that it exists only in small pockets. With a modest investment we can eradicate it. It's an extremely important goal - if we don't achieve it the disease will have the opportunity to grow, perhaps even mutate. We really need it gone, completely.

There are very few major problems in the world where a few billion dollars might be enough to change things for the rest of history. As you point out, the agriculture issues are many, and require a multitude of different approaches to really solve starvation. It's not just yields, it's not just technology, it's not just politics - it's all of that and more.

The Gates Foundation spent a lot of time thinking at the beginning, trying how best to invest money. There is no obvious answer. But they have taken the approach of 'best bang for the buck' - you could poor billions into, say, the Israeli/Palestine problem and not make a dent in it - it would be as if the money just evaporated. The Gates Foundation chooses to invest where they can make large differences in people's lives - getting rid of diseases, improving water sources for farms, that sort of thing, with the idea that if you reduce misery and get rid of things that keep people at the most impoverished levels, they will have the chance to live a meaningful life and start participating in improving their lot. If you are starving, or dying in a hospital, you can't help yourself. If many of your kids die, you will be procreating like mad, causing population explosions. You have to nip that stuff in the bud. On the back of that you can then usefully make the needed improvements to agriculture, infrastructure, etc. If you and your kids have polio, et. al., you ain't going to be able to put better farming practices into use - you'll just be laying on your bed, dying or sick.
 
If it helps one's argument on the internet, one can invent happen to have all kinds of convenient relatives.


<snip>


Umm.

Look, it may not be the most judicious thing to link to your brother's (if that is who he is) RL bio in a public thread where you are taking a militantly anti-vax position. Especially considering his occupation.

Did you consult him first?

Just saying.
 
Let me try for an agricultural analogy. I'm sure it'll be off in some aspects because I am not in the field - grant me that. Suppose there was a blight that, with a few years work, could be eradicated. The blight has the possibility for some localized starvation if the towns do not have a lot of various crops, etc. And, we have the science to completely eradicated the blight, but it will take some money. Doesn't it make sense to attack this problem, now, while it is tamped down and amenable to eradication, even though we of course have longer term issues with sustainability, production yields, etc? Ignoring the blight will just let it get worse, and waste all of the effort made on it to date.


Roger, it's not theoretical. Look up the sorry history of sheep scab in Britain, or bovine tuberculosis in England. Oh, there's hardly any left, it's not a problem now, we can't justify the level of expenditure needed to wipe out the last little pocket or two.

Now the country has sheep scab coming out of its collective ears, and bovine TB has spread to an embarrassing number of English counties and got itself nicely bedded down in the wildlife.

Rolfe.
 
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Investing in sustainable agriculture now has a huge effect on future generations ability to feed themselves, that is why its called sustainable agriculture. Sure the short term high-input petro-chemical based agriculture which is common now is not sustainable and its ability to deliver in years to come is doubtful. For this reason I am still skeptical on whether the Gates foundation is investing in sustainable agricultural if they are consulting the current high-input agricultural experts who know nothing about long term agricultural sustainability.

The Gates Foundation FAQs on their Agriculture program mention sustainable acgriculture several times. You should read it. One quote:

During the original Green Revolution, overuse of fertilizer led to unanticipated environmental consequences. Today, we consider potential environmental impacts in all of our grantmaking, and are committed to a sustainable model of agriculture that takes into account the needs of both farmers and the environment. So while Africa’s severely depleted soils require fertilizer, we promote judicious and efficient uses of fertilizer, and more intensive use of organic matter. We also invest in efforts to improve soil and water conservation techniques.


As far as what I am doing about this problem. Well apart from spending the last 20 years developing techniques for farmers to grow high yielding crops without high inputs of petro-chemicals I am now introducing Probiotics Technology, which is common in the Far East, into Africa to maximize the potential for re-cycling organic matter into fertilizers for food security.
I have started a pilot in my hometown where we re-cycle 16 tons a month of food waste from the local university into vegetable production. The results so far are beyond expectation and due to this we are getting requests from all over South Africa and Africa to implement the same systems. I therefore have invested all my savings to start a company and build a factory to produce these Probiotics on a large scale. So if I respond infrequently on this forum it is because I have very little time to spend on the internet.

Nice to know for certain you know a lot about fertilizer.

The Gates Foundation encourage the use of composting.

In 2007, Farm Radio, with support from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, launched the African Farm Radio Research Initiative (AFRRI), a project aimed at exploring how to use radio to help rural farmers improve their lives. Working with five partner radio stations in Tanzania, Uganda, Mali, Ghana, and Malawi, Farm Radio has already reached 39 million farmers, providing information on disease-resistant crops, composting, animal housing, soil and water management, and a range of other vital agricultural issues.
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/agriculturaldevelopment/Pages/farm-radio-profile-of-progress.aspx

And here is a video that shows the huge benefits of being taught to compost:

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/vide...dia-video.aspx&pager=0&filter=&autostart=true

It's only two and a half minutes long. Please take the time to watch it.
 
Does that also explain why you've neglected to reply to any of the posts which have shown you to be wrong, or to be deliberately misrepresenting the evidence you've presented? It's just a coincidence that the posts that you don't have time to reply to are the ones which rebut your arguments, or show them to be dishonest?

I was wondering the same thing. He had time to move the goalposts, though.
 
I see the B&M Gates foundation have made a new video about the importance of vaccines and the drive to eradicate polio. Good one to share.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZvpF6gaGH4&feature=player_embedded
Vaccines save lives

Wait a second. Government is our savior. A wealthy man cannot improve the world. This is a vast right-wing conspiracy. This idea that Bill Gates is eradicating malaria and polio and other terrible things flys in the face of Obamaism. We all know that government save lives and that an even distribution of wealth is the answer.



just kidding :D
 
Wait a second. Government is our savior. A wealthy man cannot improve the world. This is a vast right-wing conspiracy. This idea that Bill Gates is eradicating malaria and polio and other terrible things flys in the face of Obamaism. We all know that government save lives and that an even distribution of wealth is the answer.



just kidding :D

Good thing that you're just kidding because that is a straw man and a false dichotomy.

For those interested, the US is matching funds for the vaccine mission.
 
Good thing that you're just kidding because that is a straw man and a false dichotomy.

For those interested, the US is matching funds for the vaccine mission.

And Bono praised the US taxpayers for doing more to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa than anything else. But this was when a Republican was president. So let's just ignore that fact.

Was the joke a strawman or was the underlying opposite message or both?

If governments, who were more than wealthy enough to do what Bill Gates is doing, did not do what they should have done (what Gates is doing), what does that mean about the role of government?

Reagan said that "government is not the answer to our problem; government is the problem". Was he lying or did he have a point?

And, by the way, where is the web page that says the US is matching funds or what is your source?
 
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And Bono praised the US taxpayers for doing more to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa than anything else. But this was when a Republican was president. So let's just ignore that fact.

If you're talking about Bush, he cut many good programs for slowing the spread of AIDS in Africa. I don't care what Bono says actually.

Was the joke a strawman or was the underlying opposite message or both?

The underlying message that there is a large group of people who advocate that business men can't possibly do any good and that only government can do good isn't something I hear argued by any mainstream movement. Even socialists don't tend to make that argument. It's a false dichotomy in that the argument is presented as either you believe that government is perfect and businesses can do no good, or that the government is flawed and businesses do more good.

If governments, who were more than wealthy enough to do what Bill Gates is doing, did not do what they should have done (what Gates is doing), what does that mean about the role of government?

The government didn't say, stamp out some diseases in the US through vaccination programs?

Reagan said that "government is not the answer to our problem; government is the problem". Was he lying or did he have a point?

He was making a sound bite oversimplification. Taken literally it's both true in some cases and false in others.

And, by the way, where is the web page that says the US is matching funds or what is your source?

Bill Gates said it on The Daily Show, and praised the UK for keeping it's aid programs going, and the US for what it had done so far while hoping those programs don't get cut for lack of funding.
 

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