Bill Gates and Vaccines

!Kaggen said:
All those that die of malnutrition die of starvation the most severe form of malnutrition.

Get it ?
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Goodness, no. Anyone who dies of beriberi, pellagra, or scurvy has died from malnutrition, not from starvation. I could add any number of other deficiency diseases such as kwashiorkor or Keshan disease to that list.

All dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
 
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!Kaggen said:
Oh really :rolleyes: the one is caused by the lack of food and the other is too.
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Actually malnutrition is a lack of types of nutrients. They could have all sorts of food on hand and still be malnourished.

I note you ended quoting a Wiki article that explains this. Starvation is a type of malnutrition. It is a subset of it. There are many other forms of malnutrition that don't involve a restriction of all food sources.
 
!Kaggen said:
So you're in the camp that want a vaccine for starvation malnutrition, as you're too patronizing to admit ignorance to having a solution to a really big problem that is not going to solved in a laboratory.
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Semantics problem solved.
My argument remains.

Time for Gates cheerleaders to find something else to build a strawman out of...
 
!Kaggen said:
Semantics problem solved.
My argument remains.

Time for Gates cheerleaders to find something else to build a strawman out of...
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One of the major problems that I have in my personal life is lack of money. If I had a machine that simply printed notes that were completely indistinguishable from actual bank notes in every way, I wouldn't have that problem any more. Foolishly, though, I don't spend my time or resources trying to purchase, build, find, or manifest such a machine through pure thought. I go to work every day instead, and thereby earn a very limited amount of money.

Clearly, I am a doing myself a great disservice.
 
Roboramma said:
One of the major problems that I have in my personal life is lack of money. If I had a machine that simply printed notes that were completely indistinguishable from actual bank notes in every way, I wouldn't have that problem any more. Foolishly, though, I don't spend my time or resources trying to purchase, build, find, or manifest such a machine through pure thought. I go to work every day instead, and thereby earn a very limited amount of money.

Clearly, I am a doing myself a great disservice.
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Ah strawman 1 and counting
 
One of those inconvenient posts everyone ignores

!Kaggen said:
Safe-Keeper said:
!Kaggen, I know you've already been asked this, but do you harbor the same resentment towards everyone who spend money on other causes than fighting starvation, or is it only wrong when the rich do it?
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Like I said before I think spending money and time on food security is of the highest priority. I have always thought that and that's why when I had a choice between med school and agriculture I choose agriculture. Less glamorous, but more important , IN MY OPINION.

The fact that agriculture receives lip service when it comes to funding(unless its for the pseudoscience of GMO's because its pundits promise the world in record time and investors like that) definitely does piss me off, but its not just Gates who is guilty of this, just about everyone is.

Our soil science department at our local agricultural university has shrank to insignificance as the now huge genetic engineering department has taken over the entire building and populated it with the latest and the greatest and all the students mesmerized at all the new toys which will make them all powerful.

The irony of all that is that the farmers in South Africa are crying for information on how to improve their soil quality and use less fertilizers and of course nobody in academic circles is interested as there is no funding for this, no peers to review and no academic points to gain..
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!Kaggen said:
One of those inconvenient posts everyone ignores
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It has not been ignored. Starvation is largely a political problem: just look at the ability of North Korea or Zimbabwe to support themselves. No amount of money will rectify that. But money can prevent diseases, and politics is mostly not in the way of that: Polio myelitis has been eradicated in both North Korea and Zimbabwe despite their abysmal governments (though polio is being reintroduced into Zimbabwe because of religion in Nigerian).
 
!Kaggen said:
Your funny.


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/
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I'm confused as to how you think this contradicts what I posted. You said that starvation (or, if you prefer, malnutrition) was the cause of more deaths than disease. I posted a link which showed that disease was the cause of most deaths, both in the world as a whole and in developing countries specifically. You counter that by posting a link which says that malnutrition is a factor in the deaths of 1/3rd of children.

Firstly, my link concerned the leading causes of death for all people, not just children. And, secondly, 1/3rd is not a majority. From your own link:

Over two thirds of under-five child deaths are due to diseases that are preventable and treatable through simple, affordable interventions.

[...]

About 20 million children worldwide suffer from severe acute malnutrition, which leaves them more vulnerable to serious illness and early death. Exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months of life, followed by a combination of breastfeeding and complementary feeding up to age two years or beyond, helps to prevent malnutrition.

[...]

Prevention with vaccines

For some of the most deadly childhood diseases, such as measles, polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, and Haemophilius Influenzae type B, vaccines are available and can protect children from illness and death.
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You'll also notice the table in which it lists the two biggest causes of death for children and which lists vaccines as a primary method to prevent them. It also lists preventing malnutrition but in only one of the two does that involve anything other than exclusive breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is not something that money can help with. Vaccinations are.

But thank you for providing that link. I'm sure you didn't intend it as a link which counters your own argument, but it does. It does add evidence to the two links I've already provided, though.
 
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!Kaggen said:
One of those inconvenient posts everyone ignores
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Would you mind making a list of causes that you think would save more lives per dollar invested than vaccines (on the scale of Gates foundation investment)?

Is it fair to assume you would put food security at the top of such a list? Do you think your highlighted points from the WHO list are above vaccines?
 
pgwenthold said:
Hint: !Kaggan is an anti-vaxxer.
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How do you know?

From what I can see of this thread he is simply arguing that there may be ways to help poverty, malnutrition and disease in developing countries as well as or in addition to vaccination. I can't see where he has denigrated vaccines. In fact in post 118 he stated that vaccine research undoubtedly saved lives.

I can understand the frustration of someone involved at grass roots level with agriculture being frustrated by western countries concentrating on big, sexy, sciency solutions to a problem when actually what is needed is, say, someone to help dig wells or irrigation canals or provide a way of fertilizing fields. That's not to say that vaccines or GMO are bad things but that there are other, less glamorous ways of spending money which can also make a difference but just don't attract the 'big guns'.

As for breastfeeding money can make a big difference - getting Nestle's etc to stop spending money advertising breast milk substitutes would be a good start. Like "malnutrition", sometimes more is worse. :cool:

Yuri
 
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!Kaggen said:
Semantics problem solved.
My argument remains.

Time for Gates cheerleaders to find something else to build a strawman out of...
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Your argument is still invalid. Even if malnutrition is a huge problem Gates is not in a position to be able to do anything about it. He can, however, pay to have vaccines distributed.
 
Yuri Nalyssus said:
How do you know?

From what I can see of this thread he is simply arguing that there may be ways to help poverty, malnutrition and disease in developing countries as well as or in addition to vaccination. I can't see where he has denigrated vaccines. In fact in post 118 he stated that vaccine research undoubtedly saved lives.

I can understand the frustration of someone involved at grass roots level with agriculture being frustrated by western countries concentrating on big, sexy, sciency solutions to a problem when actually what is needed is, say, someone to help dig wells or irrigation canals or provide a way of fertilizing fields. That's not to say that vaccines or GMO are bad things but that there are other, less glamorous ways of spending money which can also make a difference but just don't attract the 'big guns'.

As for breastfeeding money can make a big difference - getting Nestle's etc to stop spending money advertising breast milk substitutes would be a good start. Like "malnutrition", sometimes more is worse. :cool:

Yuri
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Thanks for that reasoned post.

Much respect to you.
 
Yuri Nalyssus said:
As for breastfeeding money can make a big difference - getting Nestle's etc to stop spending money advertising breast milk substitutes would be a good start.
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How could money help with this? Are you suggesting Bill Gates buy out Nestle? $10b couldn't do that.
 
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!Kaggen said:
Thanks for that reasoned post.

Much respect to you.
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That you've ignored my last post which showed you to be wrong is somewhat ironic given that you protested earlier when you believed people were ignoring one of your posts because it was "inconvenient".
 
!Kaggen said:
Ah strawman 1 and counting
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That was an analogy, so I don't see how it could possibly be a strawman. Perhaps you're saying that it isn't actually analogous, which may be true, but if so perhaps you could explain the meaningful differences?
 
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