Bike tax in Oregon

[Aepervius]

I suspect, dollar for dollar, that public transit would go way farther in terms of the goals you listed. Especially in terms of how many people would realistically adopt that option for themselves.

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Uh. No. Wear of the road is a function of weight on wheel and not linear so bicycle do next to no wear whatsoever. Public transit on road OTOH wear the road far more. Then public transit in all form require far more energy (and today in many case CO2 related). And finally Health : people biking are on average more healthier than somebody sitting their ass in a bus or train *if only* because they do a bit of exercize.

As for dollar to dollar reducing congestion ? That is a good question. I haven't seen it studied but i suspect it would reduce it, if only because mass transit go at fixed time and fixed positions, while bicycle are spread over time and surface.

In all practicality your answer was really poorly thought out. I am beginning to think the "hate biker" is far more a reason than you want to admit.

 

[Aepervius]

A friend of mine got rear ended a couple years ago. Brain damage, hospital bills of $300,000. He did die 6 months later, of "chronic alcoholism" and was probably drunk when hit. He died at home, was mummified for weeks before a neighbor looked in on him, so no medical care to see if it was the bike accident.

I don't believe there was ever any court investigation- no blood alcohol, no witness to say whether he swerved into traffic...

If it was me that bumped him from behind, I would have lost my house and everything I own.

I say go ahead and ride in traffic- when you have all the safety features of a car. Same impact absorbing bumpers, side impact protection, shoulder harnesses, mud guards, marker lights...

I was in a bike lane not minding my world, when an idiot in car passed on my left, then imemdiately turned right into a parking cutting my passage, and so I T-boned him , it wounded me and permanentely damaging part of my nerve on the left hand. I was not drunk, I was in my right.

Needless to say, he ran away when he saw what he did , and since I was alone dazed and blooding, I did not note his plate. I laid there a minutes or two until some passerby saw me and called the emergency service.

Anecdote for Anecdote.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Generally, cycling infrastructure is also used by pedestrians.

All drivers benefit, if appropriate cycling infrastructure means that there are less cyclists using roads.

When I mentioned social benefits of roads even without a car, I meant bigger (and apparently taken for granted) things like a nationwide transit and logistics infrastructure keeping store shelves full, that kind of thing.

...

By appropriate, I mean cycle paths that are not designed to restrict cyclists to walking pace, and none of this nonsense about cyclists having to dismount every time they cross a road.

Okay, try describing what you want rather than what you don't want.

Uh. No. Wear of the road is a function of weight on wheel and not linear so bicycle do next to no wear whatsoever. Public transit on road OTOH wear the road far more. Then public transit in all form require far more energy (and today in many case CO2 related). And finally Health : people biking are on average more healthier than somebody sitting their ass in a bus or train *if only* because they do a bit of exercize.

Biking also requires a degree of health to be a realistic commute option.

As for dollar to dollar reducing congestion ? That is a good question. I haven't seen it studied but i suspect it would reduce it, if only because mass transit go at fixed time and fixed positions, while bicycle are spread over time and surface.

The average commute is now 50+ miles? Again, this makes biking a no-go option to a huge portion of the public without a total redesign of societies and cities.

So that leaves leisure. Bike trails in parks should be free of cars, I hope.

In all practicality your answer was really poorly thought out. I am beginning to think the "hate biker" is far more a reason than you want to admit.

Stick to the topic, stop personalizing and making a moral conflict out of a difference of opinion.

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[Dave Rogers]

The average commute is now 50+ miles? Again, this makes biking a no-go option to a huge portion of the public without a total redesign of societies and cities.

No, it doesn't; folding bikes that can fit in a luggage rack on a train or bus make intermodal commuting quite straightforward and convenient. Ride from home to the station, train to the city, ride to the office. It's what Bromptons were designed for.

Dave

 

[Delphic Oracle]

No, it doesn't; folding bikes that can fit in a luggage rack on a train or bus make intermodal commuting quite straightforward and convenient. Ride from home to the station, train to the city, ride to the office. It's what Bromptons were designed for.

Dave

I dunno, poor people who want bikes more than public transit was already a tiny niche, I'm thinking young, fit urbanites with collapsible bikes is even more limited. Plus there goes the reducing traffic congestion and pollution issue. Driving in from the burbs and pedalling the last bit isn't really all that much of an environmental impact improvement.

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[Dave Rogers]

Driving in from the burbs and pedalling the last bit isn't really all that much of an environmental impact improvement.

Well, if you want to limit discussion to the stupidest possible alternative, then no, it isn't. But taking the train and pedaling the last bit, which is what I was talking about, is a big improvement in environmental impact compared to driving, and taking the bus and pedaling the last bit is smaller but still significant.

Dave

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Well, if you want to limit discussion to the stupidest possible alternative, then no, it isn't. But taking the train and pedaling the last bit, which is what I was talking about, is a big improvement in environmental impact compared to driving, and taking the bus and pedaling the last bit is smaller but still significant.

Dave

Where, in your typical downtown or major business areas, is there space that can be dedicated to biking sufficient enough to meet the requirements of others in the discussion (safe from cars, no inconveniences like dismounting, etc.)? What space will have to be given up for this?

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[Dave Rogers]

Where, in your typical downtown or major business areas, is there space that can be dedicated to biking sufficient enough to meet the requirements of others in the discussion (safe from cars, no inconveniences like dismounting, etc.)?

It depends what country you're in and what city you're in; I'm not sure any such thing as a 'typical' city exists. In cities that have been specifically designed for cars to the exclusion of other forms of transport, by definition there won't be any; but if it's a desirable change one might consider modifying the infrastructure to facilitate that change, rather than assuming that the way things are is the way things always must be. European cities, despite their often rather aged infrastructure, tend to cope quite well.

What space will have to be given up for this?

In a sensibly designed transition, the space freed up by the accompanying decline in car usage.

Dave

 

[Delphic Oracle]

It depends what country you're in and what city you're in; I'm not sure any such thing as a 'typical' city exists. In cities that have been specifically designed for cars to the exclusion of other forms of transport, by definition there won't be any; but if it's a desirable change one might consider modifying the infrastructure to facilitate that change, rather than assuming that the way things are is the way things always must be. European cities, despite their often rather aged infrastructure, tend to cope quite well.



In a sensibly designed transition, the space freed up by the accompanying decline in car usage.

Dave

Any specifics? Anything concrete (no pun intended)?

I keep reading a lot of vague optimism.

At the end of the day, you can't overcome that the set of people who live within riding distance of their worlplace or have disposable income enough to afford both a car/daily public transit expense as well as the bike is rather small to justify reworking civil urban infrastructure (it's not an appeal to tradition fallacy). The fixed cost of a car (payments and insurance) are not reduced by riding and many public transit systems charge by ride not distance, so hopping off a few stops early to bike the rest doesn't reduce costs there either.

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[Dave Rogers]

At the end of the day, you can't overcome that the set of people who live within riding distance of their worlplace or have disposable income enough to afford both a car/daily public transit expense as well as the bike is rather small to justify reworking civil urban infrastructure (it's not an appeal to tradition fallacy).

Yes you can and yes it is, because many major cities in Europe, particularly the Netherlands, have done just that with great success. They could serve as models if you want specifics.

Dave

 

[fagin]

Any specifics? Anything concrete (no pun intended)?

I keep reading a lot of vague optimism.

At the end of the day, you can't overcome that the set of people who live within riding distance of their worlplace or have disposable income enough to afford both a car/daily public transit expense as well as the bike is rather small to justify reworking civil urban infrastructure (it's not an appeal to tradition fallacy). The fixed cost of a car (payments and insurance) are not reduced by riding and many public transit systems charge by ride not distance, so hopping off a few stops early to bike the rest doesn't reduce costs there either.

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So what?

I have a car, but enjoy riding to work, and the shops etc, more than driving.

So most of the time the car just sits and gets cobwebby.

 

[Ron Swanson]

No, it doesn't; folding bikes that can fit in a luggage rack on a train or bus make intermodal commuting quite straightforward and convenient. Ride from home to the station, train to the city, ride to the office. It's what Bromptons were designed for.

Dave

At one time I had a job where I biked from my home to the subway, then had a second bike I left chained up at the other stop and road it from the subway to the job

 

[zooterkin]

The fixed cost of a car (payments and insurance) are not reduced by riding

No, but the variable costs are. Fuel, mainly (though of course that may be less of an issue in places where fuel costs are lower), lower mileage on the car will increase service intervals. Plus reduced pollution, increased health for the rider.

A lot does depend on what the infrastructure is like to start with; I would imaging that in a lot of US cities, which tend to sprawl and were built with the assumption of universal car ownership, getting to a point where high numbers of people cycle may be a challenge.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Any specifics? Anything concrete (no pun intended)?

I keep reading a lot of vague optimism.

In many cities old rail lines are converted to bike paths ... works great! .. I use them here almost every day in nice weather.

 

[Ron Swanson]

So what?

I have a car, but enjoy riding to work, and the shops etc, more than driving.

So most of the time the car just sits and gets cobwebby.

My car broke down and I sold it ... I've been bike only (I cannot walk very far) for over a year!

I took the bus once in that time and a taxi? maybe 3 or 4 times.

 

[fagin]

In many cities old rail lines are converted to bike paths ... works great! .. I use them here almost every day in nice weather.

We have one that runs down the side of the village. handy for shopping as it goes right behind the main street.

I made sure my girlfriend pulls her shopping chore weight with a big beer crate. (previous more sensibly sized one inside.) The first time she used it she mentioned the handling was a bit erratic. Effectively she was wheelying around. We did some lessons on weight distribution and problem solved.

 

[Ron Swanson]

We have one that runs down the side of the village. handy for shopping as it goes right behind the main street.

I made sure my girlfriend pulls her shopping chore weight with a big beer crate.]

That's a nice set up ... I just hang bags off the back carrier so far, and light stuff on the handles bars

 

[Dave Rogers]

So what?

I have a car, but enjoy riding to work, and the shops etc, more than driving.

I have a car, but I also have rather more pounds weight than would strictly be desirable. Cycling to work is quite a good solution, and I have a good mix of minor road / bike track and off-road routes available depending on which bike I feel like using. A recent study suggests that there are very significant health benefits from cycling to work, and I recall it being suggested that using the daily commute as the daily exercise also helps people who find it hard to motivate themselves to take exercise - certainly true of me, as I can't imagine many things more boring than gong to a gym, whereas riding to work simply becomes habit and is therefore very easy to keep up.

Dave

 

[casebro]

I was in a bike lane not minding my world, when an idiot in car passed on my left, then imemdiately turned right into a parking cutting my passage, and so I T-boned him , it wounded me and permanentely damaging part of my nerve on the left hand. I was not drunk, I was in my right.

Needless to say, he ran away when he saw what he did , and since I was alone dazed and blooding, I did not note his plate. I laid there a minutes or two until some passerby saw me and called the emergency service.

Anecdote for Anecdote.

Same thing happened to my brother. Driver said "Why did you hit my car?" He lost his Holland, got a ride to the hospital. and a check.

I think all three of you are fools for not taking reasonable precautions to ride in traffic. That means steel, all around you. I think the legal term is "duty to mitigate".

Bike paths are a good idea. But I think they should be funded with a user fee system. Using public funds, like automotive gas taxes, makes as much sense as using property tax money to fund my gun club. At least guns are constitutionally protected, do you have the right to ride a toy on the highways?

 

[casebro]

First, they took the guns from the Jews. But I didn't complain, I wasn't Jewish or a gun owner.

But then they taxed my bicycle...