Bigfoot - serious, not follies

Diogenes said:
And this proves what? That he picked out frames where the knee was bent ?

As I said, they are the clearest. The frames picked have nothing to do with a case for the compliant gait.
I have provided several links to the stabilized version.
Provide one again, please. There are new people here, and I don't want to have to plow through all those posts again trying to find it. The last two days were enough.
Anyone can step through it frame by frame, and see that the load bearing leg, locks throughout the film..
I don't see that, and neither do the experts who came to this conclusion. Maybe your fellow sceptics will. Click as I might, I can't get the clip you posted to play.
Since you have the LMS DVD, you should have no problem observing this.
I do have a problem observing it because it isn't there. It's very clear on the 50% zoom section in the extras that the knees are bent throughout the stride. When the weight is on the right leg, toward the camera, there's still a slight bend. Just before she turns, in slow motion, it looks like the right leg straightens (she may be stepping down a bit) before she puts the weight on it, but it's bent again when she does. At full speed it looks at one point where the right leg straightens for an instant, but when I viewed it again, it didn't look straight after all.

The possible rupture in the quadruceps is really clear.

I'm afraid you've failed to convince me that's a 500 lb. guy in a suit with locking knees.
I agree there are some steps where ii doesn't ( lock ), but bent knees throughout, are not typical of the subject..

Just how long is the clip? Don't you think you should see the whole film before you make a statement like that?
 
This is how the BFRO classifies reports, BTW.


BFRO Database History

The BFRO web site was built and launched in 1995. It was the first web site to provide a collection of bigfoot/sasquatch sighting reports. In fact, it was the first web site to provide a database of sighting reports of any type of elusive phenomena. The early success and popularity of the BFRO site led to a minor proliferation of other web sites applying the same formula, to UFO reports, ghost reports, etc. There were also a few web sites attempting to imitate what the BFRO pioneered with bigfoot/sasquatch sighting information. Unfortunately many of those bigfoot web sites were, and still are, filled with fabricated sighting reports, sometimes written by the webmasters themselves, in order to generate updated site content.

The BFRO site has always received more than 95% of the credible bigfoot/sasquatch sightings reported over the Internet, and it is the only collection of bigfoot reports from across North America that have actually been investigated by researchers to determine credibility. The BFRO's researchers and investigators collectively spend a great deal of time and effort sorting through and investigating sighting reports to determine which are credible enough to display to the public. The BFRO has a large network of experienced volunteer investigators across the U.S. and Canada who use various methods to determine the credibility of reports.

None of the modern reports in the BFRO's online database are made public without some kind of investigation. The nature of these investigations vary. The most complex investigations involve field searches with experienced trackers and wildlife biologists, surveillance projects, and lab analysis of forensic evidence. The less complex investigations involve phone interviews and other steps to verify the relevant information. If a witness cannot be contacted and interviewed, etc., the report is not considered credible. Credible witnesses are usually eager to have their sightings investigated, even if they don't want the information posted online.

In the absence of a serious, diligent filtering process, any collection of sighting reports submitted online will be comprised mainly of fake reports. The ratio of fake to credible reports submitted online to the BFRO is roughly 10 to 1, hence a continuous process of "separating the wheat from the chaff" is absolutely essential for a credible online database of reports.

Sighting reports sent to the BFRO are analyzed, evaluated and investigated with techniques and approaches derived from the legal profession, law enforcement, and investigative journalism. The legal profession often relies exclusively on witness testimony to determine facts. In a court of law conclusions are determined under various standards, such the "more likely than not" standard, and the more stringent "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. Every day in court rooms across America, legal conclusions are handed down based solely upon witness testimony, and often upon the testimony of a single witness, and often under the more stringent "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. In these situations the evaluation of a witness is almost entirely subjective.

The use of subjective evaluation is what separates the legal perspective of witness testimony from the scientific perspective. Witness reports are considered "anecdotal evidence" by science, mainly because they are not testable. Yet many scientists are wise enough to understand that anecdotal evidence always precedes and leads to the collection of scientific evidence. In the history of science, scientific evidence has never been collected or even pursued until there has been enough anecdotal or indirect evidence at hand to merit an effort to collect the testable evidence. Thus without the collection and evaluation of anecdotal evidence or indirect evidence, there would be no scientific discoveries at all. This is the intrinsic relationship between the two types of evidence. Sighting reports by themselves are not scientific evidence, but they are what leads us to the scientific evidence. With respect to the pursuit of an unclassified species, the collecting of credible sighting reports is an essential part of the scientific process.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report Classification System
Reports posted into the BFRO's online database after September 2000 are assigned a classification. The two classes of posted reports are Class A and Class B.

Class B reports are not considered less credible, or less important, than Class A reports. Class A and Class B reports are the ones deemed credible enough by the BFRO to show to the public.

The difference between Class A and Class B reports relates to the potential for misinterpretation of what was observed or heard. A witness might be very credible, but could have honestly misinterpreted something that was seen, found, or heard. Thus, for the most part, the circumstances of the incident determine the potential for misinterpretation, and therefore the classification of the report.

Class A reports involve clear sightings, in circumstances where misinterpretation or misidentification of other animals can be ruled out with greater confidence. There are few footprint cases that are very well documented. Those are considered Class A reports as well, because misidentification of common animals can be confidently ruled out, thus the potential for misinterpretation is very low.

Credible reports where nothing was seen, but distinct and characteristic sounds of sasquatches were heard, are considered Class B reports, and never Class A, even in the most compelling "sound-only" cases. They are never Class A because the lack of a visual element raises the potential for a misidentification of the sounds.

Almost all reports included in the database are first-hand reports. Occassionally a second-hand report is considered reliable enough to add to the database, but those reports are never Class A, because of the higher potential for inaccuracy when the story does not come straight from the eyewitness.

Most second-hand reports, and any third-hand reports, or stories with an untraceable sources, are considered Class C, because of the high potential for inaccuracy. Those reports are kept in BFRO archives but are not listed publicly in this database. There are exceptions for published, or locally documented incidents from before 1958 (before the word "Bigfoot" entered the American vocabulary), and sightings mentioned in non-tabloid newspapers or magazines.

Class B reports are just as important as Class A reports. For example, one of the best documented reports ever received by the BFRO is a Class B report from Trinity County California. It involved a very credible witness who backpacked into a remote area that has a history of sasquatch-related incidents. He described various occurences around his camp at night that are strongly suspected to be sasquatch-related. The report is still considered Class B though because there was no clear visual observation to confirm what was heard outside the tent.

Incidents wherein a possible sasquatch was observed at a great distance, or in poor lighting conditions, or in any other circumstance that did not afford a clear view of the subject, are considered Class B reports.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The BFRO's report classification system rates the circumstantial potential for misinterpretation, not the credibility of the witness, or how interesting the report is. If you are checking the Recent Additions page periodically for new reports, or to steadily gain an better understanding of behavior and geographic range, you should pay attention to both Class A and Class B reports.

If you encounter a report that seems to have been misclassified, please feel free to let us know via our Comments form.

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/classify.asp
 
You see, folks? LAL has her (my apologies) head dug so far into this idea that any evidence you present, she will just hand-wave away.

The leg clearly locks - but, O no, she just doesn't see it.

I'm betting that if someone came forward tomorrow with an old Sasquatch costume that matched the PGF and that was verified by dozens of credible experts in various fields, she'd claim someone made it recently to discredit the Bigfooters. If one of Patterson's descendents were to uncover a hidden room or basement area in his old house and found all kinds of scam evidence, she'd say it were planted. It doesn't matter what evidence you present, she's going to either make an attempt to discredit it, or she'll just hand-wave it away as insignificant.

Look at the 'hairy breasts' issue. She's now referring to women with hairy chests and mentioning 'adaptations to the cold'. However, several species of monkey and ape are found in far colder climates than the PNW, and none of them have hairy breasts. The locking knee - it's pretty darned clear, but she can't (or won't) see it.

This is just how she operates, folks. She knows, beyond all doubt, that Bigfoot exists, and she's just waiting on the rest of the world to catch up. We could plow the entire PNW to the ground and she'd just swear the creatures managed to migrate into the Arctic or something.

Oh, a biologist friend of mine (well, a professor of biology at Xavier University) claims that a 'thigh rupture' of that magnitude would cause any primate to be crippled. However, she did say that if we can ignore the fact that it's backside is hirsuite, its movement is consistent with a highly muscular gluteus. She's not sure if a costume would fake that well or not. In her opinion - she's on the fence about Bigfoot - if they exist, they're some human offshoot race, and they wear primitive clothes like we would have - explaining both the rupture (a simple pouch attached to the leg) and the hairy private bits.

Name withheld upon request.

She wouldn't comment on the IM index - she thinks that would be too easy to get wrong just by studying film footage.

I'm still not convinced, though - that doesn't look like clothes, either. Or, rather, it doesn't look like clothes over monkey fur. The butt is still very disturbing, though - it's quite a shelf from the glute to the legs, isn't it?
 
zaayrdragon said:
You see, folks? LAL has her (my apologies) head dug so far into this idea that any evidence you present, she will just hand-wave away.

The leg clearly locks - but, O no, she just doesn't see it.



I thought you left.

You've seen the footage on the LMS DVD, then, and are qualified to comment? A momentary straightening, which I'm not even sure I see at full speed, hardly qualifies as a lock, IMO. I know of no reason the leg couldn't be straight and bear weight, but this isn't what's happening.

I've read Long, Daegling, and Dennett and zillions of posts from anononymus posters on the sceptical side. One of my best friends, who happens to be a charge nurse, thinks it looks like a guy in a suit to him, but he's never given me his reasons. At least he was honest enough to watch the DVD first. We're still friends.
A cyber friend's wife, who has a degree in anthropology, changed her mind after seeing Bob Heironimus suited up on the National Geographic show. She wasn't convinced by LMS, but the guy who claims to be the "guy in the suit" did the trick.

I still take the opinions of the experts who have done detailed scientific analyses over the opinions of ........just about anybody.

I don't dismiss anything without considering it first. Did I not just spend the better part of the last hour watching the film again and again and again while trying to cook and eat dinner and move furniture?

I'm currently building a collection of books and DVDs because I find there is much I have missed. I'm putting my money where my mouth is, anyway, and doing my homework. I think if any of you had seen any of these materials, you might have caught me in a collosal blunder: Noll finds tracks in the Featurette on Sasquatch Oddessy, not on Ancient Mysteries.

I'm not the one doing the hand-waving. I seem to see fingers extended, but that could be my imagination.

Your apology is accepted.
 
LAL said:
Here's the source of the rumor concerning MM, Ray. Did you not see this?

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=12115&st=0&#entry249044
(Originally posted by Judaculla, Jul 26 2005, 01:35 PM)
>>snip<<
I found out about the rumor a few weeks after the expedition. After learning its source, I was not concerned. Matt laughs about it. I’m sorry that William Dranginis has seen fit to continue disseminating it. It really isn’t worth investigating, but to each his own.[/B]

Did you not see my response/questions?

Originally posted by RayG Jul 26 2005, 08:51 PM
Jud, if you only found out about the rumor a few WEEKS after the expedition, is it safe to say you had no 'on the spot' information one way or another which would confirm or deny the accusation? How long after the expedition was the rumor started?

Even crazy people can sometimes tell the truth. Exactly who refuted the accusation a few weeks later? How could they possibly prove whether it was true or untrue if it was a few weeks after the expedition?

I hope yer not suggesting laughter is a way to prove guilt or innocence.

Personally, I find it odd that these expeditions seem to have no lack of 'encounters' or even 'sightings', yet very little in the way of evidence. Nor is any significant attempt made to collect possible further evidence. In fact, participants seem to be cautioned AGAINST any actions which might collect conclusive evidence. Not trying to start another rumor or anything, but after reading some of the threads about the actions of the BFRO (ok, Moneymaker), I would not be surprised if evidence of a monkey suit DID surface.

Update on the number of BFF members that are ex-BFRO members/curators...here's the list effective Aug 7, 2005:

Arsquatch
BFRObabe
Blackdog
damndirtyape
Fishbone35
Gee4orce
Hairy Man
Ice Dragon
JayleeD
jimf
MasterBlaster
Mountainlady
MrXray
Muktuk
Nightwing
RB
Redwolf
Silva
StacyInMi
Susan
Tsiatko
Wildman

Quite a numer of them have resigned in the last month.

RayG
 
RayG said:
Did you not see my response/questions?
No, I missed that (too busy over here, I guess). I did see a list, however, and Noll's hope they can still get it together (in so many words).

You wouldn't be into throwing me a little support here, would you? What's your take on Wrinkle Foot?
 
From a poster who had a similar injury:

"I tore a large bundle of muscle in my right thigh in 1983 in a climbing accident. The site of the tear is approximately the same location as the "hernia" image on Patty. Over the next few years the tear healed, and with some stretching, some PT, and sensible use, the muscle functions as well as it did before the injury. Full recover took a couple years.

The only time the injury produced a limp was in the first three months immediately after accident. While the leg is solid and as strong as ever, there is from time to time pain when the injured muscle bundles don't slide properly over the adjacent muscle bundles. But this discomfort never causes a change in stride either.

For whatever it's worth."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3779&hl=rupture+\++quadruceps
 
LAL said:
From a poster who had a similar injury:

"I tore a large bundle of muscle in my right thigh in 1983 in a climbing accident. The site of the tear is approximately the same location as the "hernia" image on Patty. Over the next few years the tear healed, and with some stretching, some PT, and sensible use, the muscle functions as well as it did before the injury. Full recover took a couple years.

The only time the injury produced a limp was in the first three months immediately after accident. While the leg is solid and as strong as ever, there is from time to time pain when the injured muscle bundles don't slide properly over the adjacent muscle bundles. But this discomfort never causes a change in stride either.

For whatever it's worth."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3779&hl=rupture+\++quadruceps

So you're saying Patty had a really good physical therapist? This must have been in the days before HMOs, because she'd never be able to afford that these days.
 
Okay, here's the link from BFF on Woltrax' stabilized version so everybody can play. The fluid motion seems mostly to have been lost. I'm not seeing locked knees, even going frame by frame. I don't think I'd have seen locked knees before I knew what a compliant gait is.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/media/patty3.mov

Maybe it will inspire someone to view it on LMS, anyway, and check out the huge number of threads on the PGF on BigfootForums.com, including the one started by Chris Walas, ace creature maker,

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=8446&st=0

And this interesting discussion on the back and right shoulder:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11549&hl=keyhole+patty

A picture is worth a thousand words, isn't it?
 
Hitch said:
So you're saying Patty had a really good physical therapist? This must have been in the days before HMOs, because she'd never be able to afford that these days.

It occured to me it could be an old injury that wouldn't hamper her much. Interesting that such an injury can occur climbing. One of the posters noted she seems to linger a bit on the left leg. This could be the slightly compromised gait Meldrum and Nelson referrred to; it doesn't have to be a big noticable limp.
 
Lu, Noll is talking about having the cast digitized. This has nothing to do with photograping it.

It appears the cast was never digitized, or we just haven't been allowed to see the results.

Not that I'd want to if evidence has been eliminated from it.

I don't think the elk imprint has to be the chest. It could be the side. The elk could have lain down after it ate.

I see no reason why there have to be footprints in the body impression if it was made by an elk. No reason at all. Even if the elk did not lay down after it ate some fruit.

The three hoofprints argument is absolutely ridiculous imo, so I have no response to it.

In any event....

Where can we see the dermal ridges in the skookum cast so that we can make an informed judgement? If I saw these dermal ridges, I would drop the "elk knee" argument immediately.

Why aren't there detailed closeup photos of the various "sasquatch" imprints available for examination?

Perhaps if we could all get a better look at this possibly fantastic piece of evidence, we could come to some sort of agreement about it? We could at least learn a little more.

All I have ever seen of closeups is a poor shot of a supposed heel & tendon.

Was the skookum cast digitized? If so, can the public see the unaltered results? If not, why not?

Did anyone even bother to properly document the various impressions in the cast with good closeup photos? If they did, why can't we see them?

Until someone does an actual comprehensive examination and documentation of the skookum cast*, it will remain pretty much useless.

*Or releases the results of the one that should already have been done by those who made it....

What is available at the BFRO is woefully inadequate for such a piece of evidence, particularly when you consider what the BFRO believes the cast to be.
 
I have downloaded patty3.mov and watched it several times now.

I don't see anything different from a human walking. I see locked knees at every step.

Can anyone direct me to a clip that contains this image (frame72)? It does not appear to be in patty3.mov.

frame72.jpg
 
Originally posted by Correa Neto In my opinion the animal's habitat is within the head of the people who believe it exists...
Originally posted by LAL You and Daegling. That ignores the physical evidence, doesn't it?
Physical evidence? Where? Someone managed to get a bigfoot carcass, capture one alive or take a nice photo or film since I made my last post?

Originally posted by Correa Neto In the opinion of these people, sighting reports are reliable (a supposition I find nor satisfactory) evidence, thus providing means to access its geographic range. The sighting database (you posted a link hundreds of posts ago) has reports virtually from every USA continental state and a large part of Canada. So, assuming it exists, and that sightings are reliable, assumptions that I think are questionable, this area is the creature's geographic range, taking in to account the date of the first sighting in the database to the last one (a report from say, 1715, may be from an area where the animal -assuming it exists or existed- no longer lives). And this is what´s supposed to be the present-day range and not includes other crypto-hominids. Including other legends of wildmen and baseless suppositions on where and how the creatures (assuming they exist or existed) evolved increases dramatically the area by including Europe and tropical Asia, for example. The density of evidence also decreases dramatically.
Originally posted by LAL I asked about habitat, not distribution. There's no evidence all these reported hominids are the same species.
First of all there´s no evidence that none of these animals exist... Inside the heads of those who belive in them, bigfeet, basing on the avalible evidence from sighting reports (have I mentioned how "solid" they are?) these animals are supposed to live in a variety of environments. Forests, mixed forest/open fields and marshes... The forest types include temperate and subtropical. And the environments where the immaginary beasts roam are over a vast geographic area. Many sightings are near roads, camping sites, natinal parks. Some are from suburban areas. Not a single roadkill. Not a single carcass. Funny. Cripplefoot and Patty, probably the best-documented specimens have serious problems. And still, no carcass. Oh, I already can see the excuse - that´s why they are so well-documented, they could not hide as efficiently as the rest of the pack.
Originally posted by LAL There's a discussion of the Jersey Devil, hominid variety, in The Scientist Looks at the Sasquatch, pg. 134.

The Devilish thing is from folklore and a real estate hoax. The author of the article (Strasenburgh) states that south out the Pine Barrens there's a nearly unbroken system of swamps and salt marshes extending into Florida, where the Skunk Ape is found. I'm rapidly losing my impression that the East Coast is an extended New York.
And folklore is also composed by myths and legends, isn´t it? Distorted by some people eager to find bigfoot.
Will you claim now that East Coast also has no roads, extremely intense scavenging activity, no one wanders in the forests, the skunk ape is yet another undiscovered species...
Originally posted by Correa Neto Wait, new statistical studies? You said the 2000 figure was a guess... Now it became a statistical study? Based on what?
Nothing of the above serves as excuse for the absence of reliable evidence. Smaller animals with much smaller populations are being constantly tracked, filmed, etc. And at areas much more remote, that are logistical nightmares.
Originally posted by LAL Kratz said he was guessing at 2000. There's an estimate based on reports of 2000-6000. I didn't say it was new.
But now it became a statistical study, There´s a big difference between a "guesstimation" and a statistical study, regardless of the age.
Originally posted by Correa NetoThus, its just another unreliable tale that can not be verified. Not good evidence, again.
Originally posted by LAL They all are, to you.
Not only to me, but also to a large number of biologists.
Originally posted by Correa Neto And we are supposed to belive that someone destroyed such a valuable iten? Its just another unreliable evidence with a great shadow of hoax over it.
Originally posted by LAL Bryne thinks it may be in a drawer in the British Museum. People examining the hand, which has since been stolen, noted it was a construction, without knowing how the construction happened.
Ah. Suppositions constructed over a very solid base.
And now the hand is a reconstruction. Very reliable evidence. Smells of fraud, eh?
Originally posted by Correa Neto So, you trust in information you take from what you label as a wacko site? Why? Because it supports your beliefs?
Originally posted by LAL No, because it was the only place we could find some of Heuvelman's writings in French.
The site came up during a debate on the Minnesota Iceman on BFF. Since Heuvelman's book on it has not been translated into English, a poster found the site, which has a photo and article by Heuvelmans. I noted the Aquatic Ape stuff and the apparent acceptance of Heuvelmans species designation. Weird.
A very reliable source. Really. I sugest you to drop on using it.
Originally posted by Correa NetoAccording to a wacko site, you forgot to add at the start of the paragraph.
Originally posted by LAL You wanted a report of a "wildman" corpse. I gave you one. I've come across a couple of references to a man shooting a Sasquatch in 1970. I'm trying to find out more.
No. I (as well as a lot of other people) want a corpse. Not another report.
Originally posted by Correa NetoLAL, I´ll write once again- any biologist or paleontologist who manages to find a bigfoot skull will get instant fame. And yes, he/she will have to prove its the real Mccoy - we are talking about science, that is based on data, and not on faith, that is based on beliefs.
Originally posted by LAL Do you know of any that are out looking? Dr. Bindernagle, possibly, but why should he count when he's already a "believer"?
You know, no one really has to be looking for a bigfoot skull. Professionals do not work in the way you think they do.
Student- "Look professor, that seems to be a large ape skull..."
Biologist or Paleontologist- "Leave it aside. We´re looking for bear skulls."

Originally posted by LAL Didn't I mention I was in the area after events in Skamania County in 1969? They were followed up. Krantz examined tracks in Washington as well as casts. The PGF was thoroughly studied, beginning with primatologists at Yerkes. Do you think no one looked into these happenings at the time?

The PGF has a huge fraud shadow hanging over it. And what about all the other sighting reports? Are you sure they are not just newspaper notes collected?
Originally posted byCorrea NetoHehe. You felt in to the trap. Roadkills and nice pictures of fossil animals? Can´t you do better than this?
Originally posted by LAL You haven't. What trap? I only used your arguments.
No. You are missing major points, again.
Originally posted by LAL I'll take the opinion of Dr. Daris Swindler, Professor Emeritus, UW, leading primate anatomist in the country, on them being a hominid primate. If he noticed any resemblence to a squirrel or an opposum, he might have said so.

Interesting though this is, you're really too far out on a limb for me.
I´ll take the opinion from all the biologists and paleontologists I know and those I read books or articles from. They state that from the exterior anatomy of an animal its very hard, if not impossible, to know its affiliation. Not to mention that, in some cases, only genetic studies can help.
Originally posted by Correa Neto So, how can someone based on artistic renders of sighting reports and blurry pictures identify a creature as a giant hominid based just in the external anatomy?
Originally posted by LAL Ask Swindler.
See above. You will have to do better than that.

Originally posted by LAL No one said that. They're noctural and evidently very wary. Many of the encounters seem to have come about because they were checking out the humans. Curiousity, perhaps.
And they never check out the people with cameras, specially if they are wildlife photographers.
Originally posted by Correa Neto They will never show up to experienced wildlife photographers... Even if these people spend much more time in the wilderness and know much better how to behave in order not to disturb wildlife...
Originally posted by LAL No one's saying that either.
And why these people never managed to bring a nice picture or footage of a bigfoot?
Originally posted by LAL So you think the wife of an attendee typifies the calibur of some people who are "in the business"? Richard Noll is more typical, IMO, of people "in the business", as though he and Crowe are making any money at this. Roy Crowe has collected a lot of stuff and goes into the field, but I don't think he's considered a serious researcher, at least compared to Krantz, Meldrum and Noll, and not according to Noll. Your attempt to stereotype people who are interested in the phenomenon is not well received.
These folks are stereotyping themselves. I don´t need to attempt to help them on doing so.
Originally posted by Correa NetoIts your money, so its your problem. I would not put my money in any one of them. And why wouldn´t all the skilled proffessionals that work with wildlife in North America not be able to obtain a nice footage or picture from bigfoot?
Originally posted by LAL You mean the ones studying wolves in daylight in the South Cascades where wolves are thought to be extinct but Sasquatch sightings seem to be the most frequent?

Noll has some intriguing pictures, but we'll have to wait to see what else he has...............
Oh, please... You are picking just the information that suits your beliefs. Do you have an idea on how these people work in the field? Are you sure they just work in daylight? Are you sure that no one studies nocturnal animals? And why restrict the area?

Intriguing pictures... Where are they? Why they have not yet been shown if they are so intriguing? Because they are more blurry pictures of fuzzy things?
Originally posted by LAL The killer apes in Congo clearly had human proportions. So did the whatever-they-weres in 2001. If they had an IM index and mass like the creature in the PGF, we'd only have to figure out where Patterson could possibly have been able to duplicate such suits with little talent and less money.

What does this have to do with 1967 when the only synthetic hair available was Dynel?
Killer apes? Once again you are picking what fits your needs. What about the "standard gorillas"? Oh, you´ll claim the female gorilla and the silverback were animatronics. Animatronics were used just in face close-ups, distant shots used people in monkey suits.
Again, as usual, you can cherry-pck the opinion you want on PGF. As other posters here have already shown, there are opinions from specialist that it is a monkey suit. And actually it looks like one. And the creature does not fits with usual bigfeet renders. Oh, I see, sexual dimorfism, different subspecies... It only creates more problems instead solving the issues.
 
LAL - seriously. Take a break for a while. You're obsessing.

As for myself, I know you'll be tickled to learn that I've decided to take an extended break from JREF. My favorite morons have, apparently, left the forum, and I'm just not that interested in cryptozoology and pseudoastronomy. Meanwhile, my best friend has bought me a copy of City of Heroes and my roommate has agreed that I can subscribe, on a purely month-by-month basis. So I'm gonna switch my obsessions for a while.

One last comment to LAL - I've got the DVD reserved at the library, and I might get it and take a look - or I might not. Frankly, the existence or non-existence of Bigfoot really doesn't have any impact on my life, any more than alien frogs or Nessie or humpback whales (GASP! SAVE THE WHALES!). Sure, it'd be a damn shame if man kills them off, but it happens, and I'm not paying for whale burgers or Bigfoot testicles or whatever, so as far as that goes, I've done my part.

Later!
 
I meant no footage of the event is missing. I didn't state that well.
Come again..


Everything is missing, except a cfew seconds of two reels of film ...

Why should we believe that we are seeing everything that is relevant ?

I certainly understand that you don't want to see anything to disturb your POV...
 
LAL said:
As I said, they are the clearest. The frames picked have nothing to do with a case for the compliant gait.

Are you aware that Bourne observed there was nothing about the gait of the subject in the PGF that distinguished it from a human, and that Kranz agreed ?
 
LAL said:
Here's the source of the rumor concerning MM, Ray. Did you not see this?

answer the question regarding the rumor right now. I was on the WV expedition.

The source of the rumor is a Mr. G, a resident of West Virginia. I won’t use his real name, but it’s not hard to discover. Mr. G was the contact for a report submitted to the BFRO. He claimed to have sasquatch activity on his property.

Prior to the start of the expedition, Mr. G’s property was visited and a handful of people extensively walked throughout the property. There was no sign of activity.

Mr. G drove quite a distance that evening to the expedition base camp and spent that evening around the campfire with the BFRO members and expedition members who were already present (still before the official start). He proceeded to share the rest of his experiences, and they were very….colorful, shall we say.

Matt decided that it would not be worth our time to expend any more energy on Mr. G (not a hard decision), and we would focus elsewhere. However, Mr. G returned a few nights later wondering why we had not returned to his property (actually his mother’s property). He had a firearm.

We humored him while Matt called the local sheriff. Mr. G shared more tall tales, and there was not one expedition participant or BFRO member present who would lend credence to any of his claims. I can easily call a half-dozen participants and members who heard every bit of it, and another half-dozen who heard parts here and there—before they got up and walked away in either disgust or fear.

Mr. G departed before law enforcement arrived. Apparently, most local residents are familiar with Mr. G. He is quite the character, but mostly harmless. However, Mr. G found out about Matt contacting the sheriff.

As payback, Mr. G attempted to spread this rumor of a BF suit. He contacted Wag TV and ESPN to try to prevent their arrival. The reporter from ESPN heard the rumor from Mr. G before arriving for the second week of the expedition. Without telling Matt, the reporter looked into it independently and discreetly. He found no substance to the claim. After Matt found out about the rumor, the reporter confessed to knowing about the claim and investigating it. His opinion of Mr. G was the same as Matt’s opinion.

I found out about the rumor a few weeks after the expedition. After learning its source, I was not concerned. Matt laughs about it. I’m sorry that William Dranginis has seen fit to continue disseminating it. It really isn’t worth investigating, but to each his own.

I could go into great detail regarding Mr. G’s claims, but see no reason to shame this man for his misplaced attempt at vengeance. I ask other BFRO members to not post any further on the subject.

But surely you realize this seems to be Moneymaker’s modus operandi? To vehemently attack anyone who casts doubt on him and his organization…and when I say attack, I mean discredit with claims of drug use, mental instability, and so forth. I don’t know anything for sure, but Moneymaker seems like a bit of a loose cannon. He’s definitely no scientist.

The high fees, combined with Moneymaker’s unstable temperament and the BFRO’s reluctance to share “evidence” it has gathered on its trips with the Bigfoot community makes his whole organization a bit fishy.
 
LAL said:


Have you figured out how a guy who had to borrow money from his brother-in-law managed to finance a suit Disney Studios said would cost $300,000 to build? And how no one seemed to notice he was doing this, if he was "modifying" a stock item?

When did they say this? Who said it?

Morris said it cost $425.

LAL said:

Did anyone see the pictures of actual Morris suits from the era I posted?

Are those the only suits he made? How do you know they are from that era?

Did you see the one he recreated from circa 1967 materials for the special with Bob H.? Looked pretty good to me...
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom