Bigfoot - serious, not follies

Re: Re: Inverse square as it applies to Big Foot

LAL said:


You haven't seen the PGF, right?

The right thigh apparently has a rupture and her gait may be compromised.

The creature in the PGF wasn't that heavy. The 8-footers seem to be slim. And male.


http://www.bfro.net/REF/THEORIES/WHF/FahrenbachArticle.htm [/B]

I've seen snippets of Patty. If a quadriceps gets ripped that badly, you couldn't walk at all. It would have to be totally detached from the kneecap to cause a wrinkle like that. Your knee wouldn/t lock, you couldn'r even stand on it.Yet Patty seems to walk just like I would expect of a man in a suit.


And you haven't given me your input on the apparent rectangular eye hole in the suit- or was the face of the actor 'whited out' to protect the guilty?
Soooo, you are saying there are 2 species, one of 8 foot height whose pics get taken, and another kind? Second kind is human sized, so it wouldn,t need size 24 feet, so no big foot?

That's a heck of a variation in weight estimates. Just how expert are those experts? And how much did they depend on Patterson's story for basic proportional info? IF he made the suit, made the footprints, made the 'measurements' all this comes back down to one man's hoax.
 
another Big Picture question

With all the blurry photos, believers would have us thinking that BF is known to share space with humans. Is there ANY pic, no matter how blurry, with any man made object in the background? Or are all the photo shoots staged to preclude anything useful for accurate proportions?
 
Re: Re: Re: Inverse square as it applies to Big Foot

casebro said:
I've seen snippets of Patty. If a quadriceps gets ripped that badly, you couldn't walk at all. It would have to be totally detached from the kneecap to cause a wrinkle like that. Your knee wouldn/t lock, you couldn'r even stand on it.Yet Patty seems to walk just like I would expect of a man in a suit.


It's a hernia, not a rip. Human females get them too.
Snippets aren't good enough. Try to see it on the LMS DVD. The figure is so dark on some of the TV shows you can really see the details.

She uses a compliant gait.

And you haven't given me your input on the apparent rectangular eye hole in the suit- or was the face of the actor 'whited out' to protect the guilty?



I must have missed the post. I haven't seen anything that absurd from you.
Are you talking about the highlight that was supposed to be a glint off Bob Heironimus' glass eye?

Soooo, you are saying there are 2 species, one of 8 foot height whose pics get taken, and another kind? Second kind is human sized, so it wouldn,t need size 24 feet, so no big foot?


Sexual dimorphism. There may be subspecies or more than one species (check out Marked Hominids). The animal in the Patterson film was probably about 6'5".

That's a heck of a variation in weight estimates. Just how expert are those experts? And how much did they depend on Patterson's story for basic proportional info? IF he made the suit, made the footprints, made the 'measurements' all this comes back down to one man's hoax.


Patterson knew zip about biomechanics. Bryne told me he knew them both personally and didn't think they were smart enough to
pull off a hoax like that. Krantz was pretty much of the same opinion.

Green did a renactment. Patterson's estimates were mostly disregarded. Glickman evidently underestimated the weight to fit his "man-in-a-suit" notions. Green weighted himself down with 250 lbs. for a total of 450 lbs. and couldn't sink as deeply as those tracks.

This is the guy (Bob Heironimus) who claimed to be the man in a suit Patterson made in a suit Morris, who said he made the suit, made. Patty's on the left (in case you can't tell the difference).
 
marksman said:
The latest Bigfoot sighting turned out to be bison

Article

Not quite. The hair was from an animal long dead. There are still the nine witnesses and tracks. If you choose to believe they saw a dead Bison, I can't help you.

"Not only was the hair from a bison, it was from a long-dead animal, said Coltman. The DNA was highly degraded and of very low quality, said the researcher. It was either exposed for a long period of time to moisture and sunlight, or came from a hide that had been tanned."

http://north.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=sasquatch-not-280720005
 
Gee - the man in the suit seems to have the exact same proportions as the Sasquatch. How amazing.
 
Re: another Big Picture question

casebro said:
With all the blurry photos, believers would have us thinking that BF is known to share space with humans. Is there ANY pic, no matter how blurry, with any man made object in the background? Or are all the photo shoots staged to preclude anything useful for accurate proportions?

Photo shoots?

I suggest you do a little research on how films have been obtained.
 
Diogenes said:
Compromised? Youv'e got to be kidding?

One thing about the film that is clear, is that no one is limping..
I should have said "slightly". I never seem to know in advance which nit you guys are going to pick.
Nice try though, to account for the loose padding....

Bob Heironimus himself said no padding was used. :D
 
LAL said:
Such as Elkins Creek, Georgia?

I've said before I don't know how good the evidence is for those areas. The best evidence is from the PNW, and that's the area I'm most familiar with, so I choose to mostly confine my discussion to the PNW.

If you want to go on about the Yeren, Ucu, Orang Pendek, Nugoi Rung, Teh-lma, Didi, Marked Hominids or any other reported bipedal primates from other parts of the world or even the US, feel free to enlighten us.
But LAL, it is not working! For the Nth time, the conditions you are using are not valid for the whole habitat of the creature. Therefore the arguments you raise to explain the inexistence of remains (fossil or recent) or sharp footage are not valid.
Listing names of legendary creatures is of little help. Don´t forget the myth interpretation problem.


LAL said:
[BSee above. The Southern Rockies seem to be a hot spot, and they're about as rugged and roadless as the PNW....snip...[/B]

See, here´s another problem, that comes from the way you are basing your reasoning. You are stating that all PNW has the same homogeneous conditions and that all the SR have the same roadless conditions. This is obviously not true. Both areas have places that are more or less population and infrastructure.

LAL said:
How's your French? Was this a Kaptar or another variety of Russian "Wildman"?
...snip...
<http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cryptozoo/vedettes/hom_sauv.htm>

The Minnesota Iceman may have been shot in, guess where? Minnesota. It seemed to match descriptions from Viet Nam as well, however.
The usual questions:
(a) Where is the body of the wildman shot in 1925?
(b) Why the Minesota Icema is just a freak show curiosity? Do you trust in something that has such a deep dark shadow of fraud hanging over it?
(c) Myth reinterpretations -actually twisting... The site now claims that satyrs were neanderthals (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cryptozoo/fabuleux/satyres.htm)... So, neanderthals had horns, goat feet and legs? Shades of mapinguari and mokelembembe here.
(d) Invoking an immaginary creature to back another one is really not a good methodology. Zero solid evidence for all these supposed hominids.
As you can see, my French is OK.
LAL said:
Your sweeping assumption certainly isn't either. It's always preferrable to have some physical evidence along with the sighting to help rule out misidentification.
So, all I have to do is to claim to have seen a bigfoot and try not telling I was high or making a joke?
How can you trust in decades-old reports, many -if not most- may as well be just urban, I mean rural, legends? Many have just been repeated by every book or article on bigfeet, no check on the orgin other than a supposed article on a newspaper...
LAL said:
I can already see how weak the arguments being used against me are; I don't need to debunk yours above.

You know Gorillas give off a "fear" smell?
Try debunking my "theory". It´ll be an interesting exercise. It will really help you see how weak your arguments are. To defend my "theory" you will I use the same type of "arguments" you use to defend bigfoot as a real creature and as a hominid. And they are really weak.

As for the gorilla´s fear smell, thit nothing compared to an opossum or even a skunk. Hmmmm.... Maybe bigfeet evolved from mustelids! No. My "theory" is correct.
LAL said:
Nope. There are very few. Most sightings seem to be of them crossing roads. Even if a person has a camera, how many would be able to point and shoot before the creature is gone? A friend's sister saw one at dawn while getting water on a camping trip in Washington State. She didn't have time to go back to the camp for a camera, let alone try to get a good shot in poor light at a distance.

I don't think Dr. Johnson was thinking, "Lights, camera, action!" in his encounter:

...snip...

<http://portlandmercury.com/2000-09-14/feature-2.html>
And I suppose you know that nowdays digital cameras made things much easier... Even some years ago, conventional cameras such as the EOS series were great when it come to help people not loosing a snapshot.
As for the link...
""Well," quips one attendee, referring to the potential demise of such events like the weekly Western Bigfoot Society lunches, "at least we won't have to waste our Tuesday afternoons anymore."
His wife adds, "We'll just move on to Loch Ness."
No more comments needed.
LAL said:
No one's denying that. The slick expedition was even worse and the participants ended up hating each other. They did discover four sets of tracks, however.

The Norway House incidents this year pointed up the need for a well-equipped team at the ready. That didn't happen.
So, can you really trust in the results?
You know, since there are lots of experient professionals doing field research on existing species, there´s little need for such requests. The people currently studying (or making photographic stdies) of say, black bears or woves, have the skills needed for providing solide evidence. And they would not miss a 3-m high ape.

Now, if you excuse me, I have a plane to catch.
 
LAL said:
Not quite. The hair was from an animal long dead. There are still the nine witnesses and tracks. If you choose to believe they saw a dead Bison, I can't help you.

"Not only was the hair from a bison, it was from a long-dead animal, said Coltman. The DNA was highly degraded and of very low quality, said the researcher. It was either exposed for a long period of time to moisture and sunlight, or came from a hide that had been tanned."

http://north.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=sasquatch-not-280720005

LAL, I can’t even begin to fathom your reasoning.

Doesn’t the fact that the fur found by the Squatch sighters was of a long dead bison, whose hide had been exposed to unusual conditions and/or tanning, lead you to the most rational conclusion here: it was a hoax. How is it you refuse to believe in hoaxes at all costs to rationality? Why do you automatically believe a group of people who make this kind of extraordinary claim, when their only proof is the fur of a dead animal which from all appearances was yanked off the mounted bison head in their grandpappy’s den?
 
Diogenes said:
You mean the high priced camping trips, where they almost always see ( at least MM or one of his regulars do ) a Bigfoot, but still haven't managed to bring home any bacon..

Of course a real sighting would have MM looking for a real job, but it doesn't look like there is any danger of that happening anytime soon..

LAL:

What is your impression of the BFRO? Sidetracking one moment from the issue of the existence or non-existence of Bigfeet, I would like your impression of Moneymaker and crew.

Without knowing them personally, what research I have done on them makes them seem a bit sketchy. Charging from $800-$1200 a head to go on “Bigfoot roundups”, someone in the group seems to always have a sighting. Doesn’t this strike you as suspicious? What about the rumor of Moneymaker being caught with a monkey suit in his car?
 
zaayrdragon said:
Gee - the man in the suit seems to have the exact same proportions as the Sasquatch. How amazing.

Yeah, that picture of the Hieronimous-Patty suit comparison just leads me to one conclusion: Bob H. was in the suit.

Footers will point to the slight differences between the pictures, but slight differences can be attributed to the difference in the angle of the photo from the subject, and fur depth differences and so forth between the different costumes. I mean, there's no way the suits can be perfectly identical...
 
Thurkon said:
LAL, I can’t even begin to fathom your reasoning.

Doesn’t the fact that the fur found by the Squatch sighters was of a long dead bison, whose hide had been exposed to unusual conditions and/or tanning, lead you to the most rational conclusion here: it was a hoax. How is it you refuse to believe in hoaxes at all costs to rationality? Why do you automatically believe a group of people who make this kind of extraordinary claim, when their only proof is the fur of a dead animal which from all appearances was yanked off the mounted bison head in their grandpappy’s den?
I'm suddenly reminded of that old Simpsons episode where Bart is framed for killing Mr. Skinner. Then Mr. Skinner bursts into the courtroom. And the prosecution demands that his testimony be stricken from the record.
 
Correa Neto said:
But LAL, it is not working! For the Nth time, the conditions you are using are not valid for the whole habitat of the creature. Therefore the arguments you raise to explain the inexistence of remains (fossil or recent) or sharp footage are not valid.
Listing names of legendary creatures is of little help. Don´t forget the myth interpretation problem.


And what, in your opinion, is the whole habitat of the creature?
The cryptids I mentioned are all hominids. I have no idea if they're related or what evidence there is for them. Did you read my post where I pointed out the "Jersey Devil", as depicted in your post was a real-estate hoax? No comment?

See, here´s another problem, that comes from the way you are basing your reasoning. You are stating that all PNW has the same homogeneous conditions and that all the SR have the same roadless conditions. This is obviously not true. Both areas have places that are more or less population and infrastructure.



"For centuries scientists long scoffed at the concept that a large primate could in fact exist in North America co-existing in the remote wilderness along side an estimated 325 million people in North America for nearly 250 years. The population of both the United States and Canada combined totals 19,602,028 square kilometers. New statistical studies have shown there could be well in excess of 2,000 of these creatures residing in the forests of North America.

At the lowest number, there is perhaps a single Sasquatch per every 162 thousand people or one Bigfoot per 9,801 square kilometers (one hectometer); equivalent to the size of the Florida Everglades. Taken into account that most of our population lives in urban or rural farming communities, few hike or hunt, and even fewer venture out into the forests at night. It doesn't take rocket science to understand how a creature could evade detection. Furthermore it is believed that Bigfoot is a nocturnal animal, often traveling in family groups up to four in dense forests and can reach top running speeds in excess of 40 mph. Take into account this species might perhaps possess the highest rank of intelligence, second only to Homo sapiens, lends additional ammunition as to why it may have been difficult to document such an animal in the past. While traveling in groups Bigfoot can be difficult to find as there maybe only one group per 39,204 square kilometers; the equivalent to finding a needle in many haystacks."

http://www.royalforum.com/article.php?id=46


The usual questions:
(a) Where is the body of the wildman shot in 1925?


I have no idea.

(b) Why the Minesota Icema is just a freak show curiosity? Do you trust in something that has such a deep dark shadow of fraud hanging over it?


The original was replaced by a model. Sanderson and Heuvelmans weren't the only ones who thought the original was real. This is the most likely of Hansen's stories:

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/hansen.html

I saw the photos in Argosy (1969 was a big year for this stuff). There are things difficult to reconcile with a carny construction, such as the blood that bubbled up from the eye socket and the gas bubbles in the ice from decomposition.

I just finished a lengthy debate on this on BFF. I'll point you to the thread if you want, but I don't want to have to go through it all again.

(c) Myth reinterpretations -actually twisting... The site now claims that satyrs were neanderthals (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cryptozoo/fabuleux/satyres.htm)... So, neanderthals had horns, goat feet and legs? Shades of mapinguari and mokelembembe here.?



The site is wacko, but there's some good information on it, at least where I can read it.

(d) Invoking an immaginary creature to back another one is really not a good methodology. Zero solid evidence for all these supposed hominids.
As you can see, my French is OK.



Good. Mine's pretty bad. At least there may have been a couple of corpses of non-human hominids and a Yeti finger that seems to have disappeared after it was smuggled out of Tibet in Gloria Stewart's lingerie case.

So, all I have to do is to claim to have seen a bigfoot and try not telling I was high or making a joke?


Is that any worse than the scofftics saying it could have been a hoax, therefore it was?

How can you trust in decades-old reports, many -if not most- may as well be just urban, I mean rural, legends? Many have just been repeated by every book or article on bigfeet, no check on the orgin other than a supposed article on a newspaper...


Which is why I tend to stick to the ones I know about almost first hand. They weren't decades old when I first heard about them. Casts age really well. And there are always new reports, some with physical evidence, such as tracks.

Try debunking my "theory". It´ll be an interesting exercise. It will really help you see how weak your arguments are. To defend my "theory" you will I use the same type of "arguments" you use to defend bigfoot as a real creature and as a hominid. And they are really weak.


Okay, I'll give it a whirl.

There should be fossils of transitional forms. There should be roadkill of transitional forms. There should be "nice" pictures of transitional forms.

Yep, those are really weak. Oops! Those areyour arguments.

As for the gorilla´s fear smell, thit nothing compared to an opossum or even a skunk. Hmmmm.... Maybe bigfeet evolved from mustelids! No. My "theory" is correct.


How about a little morphology?

And I suppose you know that nowdays digital cameras made things much easier... Even some years ago, conventional cameras such as the EOS series were great when it come to help people not loosing a snapshot.


Bobby Clarke's camcorder is a good example of how even "easier" can screw things up.

As for the link...
""Well," quips one attendee, referring to the potential demise of such events like the weekly Western Bigfoot Society lunches, "at least we won't have to waste our Tuesday afternoons anymore."
His wife adds, "We'll just move on to Loch Ness."
No more comments needed.


Roy Crowe actually seems quite sane. He spends a lot of time on this. (I met him at a Harry Schumacher Bigfoot Daze in Carson, Wa. Harry was a friend, of sorts, but he was woefully uninformed. I just saw him on Sasquatch Oddessy. He didn't even get the events that led up to the ordinance correct.) Reporters seem to have a tendency to throw in something snide, perhaps so they won't be confused with the "true believers". How do you know the attendee's wife wasn't joking?
So, can you really trust in the results?
You know, since there are lots of experient professionals doing field research on existing species, there´s little need for such requests. The people currently studying (or making photographic stdies) of say, black bears or woves, have the skills needed for providing solide evidence. And they would not miss a 3-m high ape.
They'd have to find one first.

I'm putting my money on Richard Noll. He seems to know what he's doing.
Now, if you excuse me, I have a plane to catch.

Bon voyage.
 
LAL said:
Bobby Clarke's camcorder is a good example of how even "easier" can screw things up.

Bobby Clarke’s video is bogus. To believe that this thing is a Bigfoot video is beyond ridiculous.

First of all, it is a blurry video of a tiny humanoid blob in the distance. Bigfoot? Oh, ok…but it could just as easily be Jack the Ripper’s ghost, a shapeshifting alien, or the Yukon Yak-boy.

…or maybe it’s just a guy walking on the beach?

Second, the thing is completely out of focus. Autofocus is on? Yeah, ok…so why does Bobby make absolutely no effort to zoom into the target?? The shot of his lifetime, and he is content to keep his camera completely wide without any effort to zoom?

Yeah, I’m that gullible…
 
Is that any worse than the scofftics saying it could have been a hoax, therefore it was?

Yes, it is. Look up "parsimony" and try to determine how it applies to scientific investigation.

If you can't reasonably rule out a hoax, then the evidence does not support the existence of bigfoot. Regarding the bison fur, the only thing that can be said is that something was seen; tracks were made, and some hair from a long dead, possibly tanned bison was found.

So, either a bigfoot walked by where there happened to be some tanned bison fur (of a color and texture that matches supposed Bigfoot fur rather closely) and just ahppened to be seen by 9 people (when most of the time they can't be found at all)...of someone had a bison-fur suit and walked through town.

Parsimony.
 
Another reported injury:

""He was a good yard or more through the shoulders and I've had people tell how a Bigfoot is about eight foot tall … well, this dude was taller than eight feet and closer to nine feet tall.

"When you're that close it's no problem to figure out how big it was. And, he never made any effort to run from me. He never acted like he was scared … I sure know he wasn't scared of ME … not a bit!"

"Then he turned and walked along this way (Jack simulated a limping gait) like something was wrong with one leg, like he had an old injury or someone had shot him. Then he stopped and turned and looked at me for another full minute before he left … didn't run … he just walked over to the edge of the brush that dropped off steeply into the Dry Creek north fork."


http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/orchard.htm
 
LAL said:
Another reported injury:

""He was a good yard or more through the shoulders and I've had people tell how a Bigfoot is about eight foot tall … well, this dude was taller than eight feet and closer to nine feet tall.

"When you're that close it's no problem to figure out how big it was. And, he never made any effort to run from me. He never acted like he was scared … I sure know he wasn't scared of ME … not a bit!"

"Then he turned and walked along this way (Jack simulated a limping gait) like something was wrong with one leg, like he had an old injury or someone had shot him. Then he stopped and turned and looked at me for another full minute before he left … didn't run … he just walked over to the edge of the brush that dropped off steeply into the Dry Creek north fork."


http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/orchard.htm
Your point?

I'm sure if there are Bigfoots, some of them must have injuries, and some of them must limp.


I see nothing in the PGF that suggests a limp..
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Inverse square as it applies to Big Foot

LAL said:
Sexual dimorphism. There may be subspecies or more than one species (check out Marked Hominids). The animal in the Patterson film was probably about 6'5".

Okay, I'm confused again. (I stay that way a lot when reading about Bigfoot sightings.) Patty was about 6' 5" (a couple inches taller than me) and had a pretty bad looking rupture on her right thigh. If I'm not mistaken, there was a trackway found associated with the P-G film that showed an extraordinarily long stride -- well beyond anything normal for a human.

Does it make sense that a creature only two inches taller than me -- with a pretty bad looking leg injury -- would have a stride well beyond the human norm?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Inverse square as it applies to Big Foot

Hitch said:
Does it make sense that a creature only two inches taller than me -- with a pretty bad looking leg injury -- would have a stride well beyond the human norm?

If you listen carefully, you can hear the distinctive sound of ad hoc contradictory reasoning collasping upon itself....


..sssssssssssSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*POP*!

:D
 

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