Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[tube]

Years ago when I was a pharmacist, I witnessed a woman have an absence seizure as she stood before me. I spoke to her, but got no response. After a few moments, her daughter came up to her and literally "shook her out of it", and she came to.

 

[Óðinn]

Show me an animal that knocks out other animals with chemical stink attacks.

Skunk, some insects, a few others.

And just how does an ape evolve that?

Any way it wants to.

Just call them. I gave you the number, remember? Ask them if they've had any reports of people smelling a terrible stink that incapacitated them. Say "I don't know, like a swamp gas or something?" if you feel embarrassed.

A stink attack would surely affect the recipient based on how close to the source they were. More diluted, the farther away, etc. Apparently, John was quite close to this animal, and dry heaving from the smell. I've dry heaved from a skunk.

ETA so when was this BF "stink" thing first documented anyway? Odd thing to make up, IMO.

 

[kitakaze]

Tigers can stun prey with infrasound. It is thought that Lions can also, but it has not been studied like it has with tigers. Elephants can use it to communicate for miles. Also used by whales, Giraffe and Sumatran Rhino for communication.

I would like to see some actual scientific documentation showing that tigers can stun prey with infrasound or do anything that would account for your seizure.

This is not it...



Hey, look. Tcjrsbigfoot infrasound foo foo...



Bigfoot frazzled his GPS, too.

In Gorillas, pheromones or chemical emissions provide information about an individual's health and reproductive status and possibly about the identity, age, and gender of the individual.

Far fetched? sure, but who knows?

Sure it was bizarre, all of it is bizarre.

Yes, pheromones are real. Pheromones giving you seizures as a defensive or attack function is not.

 

[WGBH]

I would like to see some actual scientific documentation showing that tigers can stun prey with infrasound or do anything that would account for your seizure.

Yes, pheromones are real. Pheromones giving you seizures as a defensive or attack function is not.

So, you think a tiger stunned me with infrasound? I would like to see it documented too. I looked but I could not find any video.

Good night everyone. talk more in the AM.

 

[kitakaze]

Skunk, some insects, a few others.

Óðinn, skunk spray from the anal glands is foul for sure. It is a sulfur mixture containing butyl thiols. The smell is powerful, but it is in no way neurological. The fact that great horned owls have no problem with skunks is due to the fact that they have pretty much no sense of smell. I would like to see an example of an animal that can emit a stink that can put you into an actual seizure as John described.

Any way it wants to.

This is not how evolution works. By what mechanism does an ape evolve a gland that can emit a stink to incapacitate prey, rivals, or predators?

A stink attack would surely affect the recipient based on how close to the source they were. More diluted, the farther away, etc. Apparently, John was quite close to this animal, and dry heaving from the smell. I've dry heaved from a skunk.

Dry heaving, yes. John was enclosed in a hunting blind. Still does not explain a seizure.

Check this...

 

[Óðinn]

Óðinn, skunk spray from the anal glands is foul for sure. It is a sulfur mixture containing butyl thiols. The smell is powerful, but it is in no way neurological. The fact that great horned owls have no problem with skunks is due to the fact that they have pretty much no sense of smell. I would like to see an example of an animal that can emit a stink that can put you into an actual seizure as John described.

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants. The olfactory is the quickest chemical delivery system there is. Air borne chemicals seem like a dandy defense. So where did this stinky BF theory come from?

This is not how evolution works. By what mechanism does an ape evolve a gland that can emit a stink to incapacitate prey, rivals, or predators?

By what mechanism did a skunk evolve their stink? How did a BF evolve a tapetum lucidum? Our current knowledge base of evolution can't answer these.

Dry heaving, yes. John was enclosed in a hunting blind. Still does not explain a seizure.

If that is what he had. Maybe the whole thing was made up.

 

[kitakaze]

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants. The olfactory is the quickest chemical delivery system there is. Air borne chemicals seem like a dandy defense.

You mean this? What animal emits pepper spray? Certainly John did not exhibit the effects of pepper spray.

So where did this stinky BF theory come from?

That Bigfoot stinks or that the stink could knock you out? The stinky Bigfoot has been around since before the PGF. Meldrum in his LMS book tried to refute the notion by saying it wasn't statistically significant in reports.

By what mechanism did a skunk evolve their stink?

The mechanism that accounts for the fact that skunks are related to Mustelidae (ferrets, weasels, etc) which have similar though less developed glands.

How did a BF evolve a tapetum lucidum?

ROFL!

If that is what he had. Maybe the whole thing was made up.

That is always possible, but whether a false memory, hallucination, or really Bigfoot, I feel John did see something.

 

[decojuicer]

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants.

O.C. Pepper spray is certainly not neurological. I have been sprayed twice(once on purpose for training reasons, and once by accident by a very intoxicated friend). O.C. Pepper spray works on the mucus membranes and is nothing more than a severe irritant. Oleoresin capsicum is in most kitchens and restaurants in this country. It's the active ingredient in cayene pepper sauce likes Tabasco or Frank's Redhot.

If you've ever been slicing hot peppers like jalepeno's or cayene's, or something similar, and wiped your eyes or nose without washing your hands first, you are experiencing the effects of oleoresin capsicum.

I have never heard of it causing seizures or hallucinations in a person. I have, however, seen several people curled up on the floor in the fetal position because of it.

Fun stuff!!

 

[JoeyDonuts]

+1 on the effects of OC. It does tend to vary somewhat in its effects, but that may have more to do with application of the spray pattern. I've seen some guys shrug it off like it was nothing. Others, it shuts them down right off the bat.

One guy I know of did end up having a seizure, but that could be attributed to stress from the irritant effect, and the fact he didn't disclose he had a history of seizures prior to entering the service.

It is not pleasant, but it is most certainly not a neurological agent anymore than CS gas is.

Had that one too. There's a reason why you're made to cup your hand under your nose.

 

[clayflingythingy]

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants. The olfactory is the quickest chemical delivery system there is. Air borne chemicals seem like a dandy defense. So where did this stinky BF theory come from?


By what mechanism did a skunk evolve their stink? How did a BF evolve a tapetum lucidum? Our current knowledge base of evolution can't answer these.


If that is what he had. Maybe the whole thing was made up.

I consider this to be likley. The whole story "stinks".

 

[Drewbot]

WGBH, did you doctor prescribe an MSLT (Multiple Sleep Latency Test) to rule out Narcolepsy? I would ask your Pshych. Dr. if he thought your dreams could be related to a sleep disorder. And he CAN NOT rule out Narcolepsy without an MSLT.

 

[Drewbot]

There are multiple causes for misidentifications, some of them more prosaic than absence seizures or hypnopompic hallucinations. In some cases it's inanimate objects misperceived as animate creatures.

It's happened to me:

http://orgoneresearch.com/2009/11/27/perceptual-illusion-and-cryptozoology/

Right, this happens all the time. The difference is in how you interpret it.

One Example.

If you ever get a chance to sit in a tree stand, as the sun comes up, you can't believe the number of tree stumps, bushes, branches that turn in to Deer. A sideways glance to the right, might show you 10 points of beautiful antlers, however, as the light grows, you can see that it is simply a bare branch blowing in the wind.

 

[WGBH]

WGBH, did you doctor prescribe an MSLT (Multiple Sleep Latency Test) to rule out Narcolepsy? I would ask your Pshych. Dr. if he thought your dreams could be related to a sleep disorder. And he CAN NOT rule out Narcolepsy without an MSLT.

Not the psychologist. I had already been to Doctors for sleep disorders before turning to the psych. They ran lots of tests and I was not diagnosed with narcolepsy. I asked that we take the conversation away from questions about my current health issues. I am a 45 year old, diabetic, overweight man now. In 1982 I was a very fit 17 year old college level athlete with no health issues.

 

[WGBH]

I consider this to be likley. The whole story "stinks".

I made up this story why? Because I like being accused of lunacy and dishonesty? Because I like having my friends, family and co-workers ridicule me? I decided after 25 years that I wanted to pull a hoax? No, I wanted to try to get some closure and get some sleep without being drugged.

 

[Drewbot]

I made up this story why?

To convince others yourself you were not Crazy?

ETA: Not saying you are crazy, just saying that many people who suffer a hallucination falsely believe that because they had a hallucination that they are crazy. I am saying you are trying to convince yourself, that you must have seen Bigfoot, because otherwise, you must have had a hallucination, and therefore I would be crazy, but since you don't want to think you are crazy, you latched on to the Bigfoot explanation.

 

[LuvGodzilla]

I believe John witnessed something (real or unreal we will never know) and wouldn't try to force it into a sudden onset hallucination box as the only explanation of his experience.

In John's own words he experienced physical symptoms that correlate to medical conditions that can create a delirious state.

John has explained that his health was good at the age of 17. Only he will know this truth.

An experience such as John claims can't just be dismissed by the sudden and inexplicable sleep paralysis theory or hallucinatory state without additional history to support what John states, a one time occurrence.

There are many variables that can factor into how John describes his sudden physical onset of symptoms.

Toxic plant exposure
Contaminated Water Source
Chemical exposure
Drug or Alcohol Use
Dehydration
Sleep Deprivation
Body Temperature Fluctuation
Blood Sugar Imbalance (hyper or hypo)
Fear, releasing adrenaline
Blood Pressure (sudden drop or increase)
Seizure


And the list can go on, these are just an example. I don't know what happened to YOU Drew that keeps you on the Sleep Paralysis or Hallucination bandwagon but you continue to grasp at a singular straw without considering the many other medical reasons that support a physical and mental reaction in the body.

John would have to divulge his personal medical and social history before and after his "experience" for a qualified person to fully be able to diagnose him and explain the whats and whys of what happened to him at age 17. He said he is working on this with professionals whether he chooses to except their explanations or not.

It's not implausible that it's a misidentification either, nor implausible that a private owner of a primate had it escape (or dumped). We shouldn't just discount that an actual large animal was present, nor the type of large animal. I personally do not believe it was a Bigfoot, but that is my opinion and I won't try to force that down his throat.

John has admitted that he'd never hunted, he'd never been in the woods. He was given a firearm with a quick lesson on safety and left in the woods without knowing where he was, without food, in a strange place with no desire to kill anything and I can only imagine the true extent of anxiety in a young man out of his comfort zone.

John's actual condition that he describes points towards several medically related issues that can cause sudden onset delirium and if we couple anxiety, sleep deprivation (based on John's timeline), lack of food (and water?) John's later admittance to diabetes, there are way more reasons to look at a medical cause for John's experience than to shove it into a tiny box labeled sleep paralysis/hypnagogic hallucination.

I can see why John would get frustrated with that being thrown at him again and again. Perhaps we should discuss your experience Drew so we can better understand your insistence and how it has affected you.

What I do not understand about John's insistence that this was Bigfoot is that he appears somewhat unwilling to look towards other explanations based on his physical symptoms that may very well explain his experience and allow him to move on with his life.

I do not believe the infrasound theory and I do not believe that theory fits the physical symptoms experienced by John in the tree stand. The infrasound theory is a stretch and it has no basis in fact concerning a primate, bears or any Large North American Land Mammal.

I would be interested in Drew's reasoning as to why he's latched onto sleep paralysis/hallucination as a reason for some Bigfoot sightings. Drew, do you yourself suffer from this condition? I have experienced sleep paralysis for 35 years with no hallucinations and I have yet to see Bigfoot in my many years in the woods or while driving or while experiencing sleep paralysis. I grew up with the knowledge of Bigfoot. I will attest that the only hallucination I ever experienced was while using LSD as a teen and it simply wasn't a scary monster.

 

[Drewbot]

And the list can go on, these are just an example. I don't know what happened to YOU Drew that keeps you on the Sleep Paralysis or Hallucination bandwagon but you continue to grasp at a singular straw without considering the many other medical reasons that support a physical and mental reaction in the body.
...

I would be interested in Drew's reasoning as to why he's latched onto sleep paralysis/hallucination as a reason for some Bigfoot sightings. Drew, do you yourself suffer from this condition? I have experienced sleep paralysis for 35 years with no hallucinations and I have yet to see Bigfoot in my many years in the woods or while driving or while experiencing sleep paralysis. I grew up with the knowledge of Bigfoot. I will attest that the only hallucination I ever experienced was while using LSD as a teen and it simply wasn't a scary monster.

At one time, believe it or not, I thought I had an encounter with an Unidentified creature, whilst bow-hunting in the Michigan woods outside of Detroit. Since then I have decided that getting to my spot in the very early morning, as I did that day, is also the best way to trick a whitetail deer. The problem with getting up that early is that you are sleep deprived, and have the tendency to nod-off, while waiting for daylight. Numerous times I have seen 'deer' moving through the woods near me, and as light approaches, realized that it was simply a branch shaped like a deer, or a stump that was the same color as a deer. I have also thought I saw a Black bear standing up on it's hind legs looking at me sitting in my tree stand, and turned out it was just a burned out stump.

This is the personal experience that caused me to research this as the cause for some bigfoot sightings. (not all sightings) however, when someone says they collapsed on the floor, that really pushes the cataplexy angle. Therefore, knowing how underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed Narcolepsy is, from my research, I am concerned that John hasn't had it properly ruled out. And the fact that he has not responded to the question of whether he had an MSLT (nap test) leads me to beleive it hasn't been properly ruled out.

Public experiences can be found in other ways. Ask a police officer if he has ever responded to a person in a ditch early in the morning, and if the driver has ever given odd explanations as to why they ended up that way. Perhaps a tire in the road, which was never located, a baby carriage, a shopping cart etc... These are common examples of normal people experiencing a hallucination.

Now ask a truck driver if he has ever seen odd things while driving at night. You won't believe the things you will hear. I did a poll at BFF, which I can not access, due to my illicit banning, called 'Hallucinations while Driving' or something like that. A large percentage of people at BFF responded that they had hallucinated while driving. There are many examples of the things I am referring to in that thread. So either a large percentage of people interested in Bigfoot have jobs or lives which deprive them of sleep, or a large percentage of Bigfoot Forum readers have sleep disorders or other Hallucination inducing factors, such as those you listed above. Mercury, Bad Water, Paint Fumes, Prescription Drug use, Non-Prescription Drug use... etc...

ETA: if someone could link to the poll at BFF, I'd appreciate it.

 

[RayG]

ETA: if someone could link to the poll at BFF, I'd appreciate it.

Here ya go.

RayG

 

[LuvGodzilla]

At one time, believe it or not, I thought I had an encounter with an Unidentified creature, whilst bow-hunting in the Michigan woods outside of Detroit. Since then I have decided that getting to my spot in the very early morning, as I did that day, is also the best way to trick a whitetail deer. The problem with getting up that early is that you are sleep deprived, and have the tendency to nod-off, while waiting for daylight. Numerous times I have seen 'deer' moving through the woods near me, and as light approaches, realized that it was simply a branch shaped like a deer, or a stump that was the same color as a deer. I have also thought I saw a Black bear standing up on it's hind legs looking at me sitting in my tree stand, and turned out it was just a burned out stump.

This is the personal experience that caused me to research this as the cause for some bigfoot sightings. (not all sightings) however, when someone says they collapsed on the floor, that really pushes the cataplexy angle. Therefore, knowing how underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed Narcolepsy is, from my research, I am concerned that John hasn't had it properly ruled out. And the fact that he has not responded to the question of whether he had an MSLT (nap test) leads me to beleive it hasn't been properly ruled out.

Public experiences can be found in other ways. Ask a police officer if he has ever responded to a person in a ditch early in the morning, and if the driver has ever given odd explanations as to why they ended up that way. Perhaps a tire in the road, which was never located, a baby carriage, a shopping cart etc... These are common examples of normal people experiencing a hallucination.

Now ask a truck driver if he has ever seen odd things while driving at night. You won't believe the things you will hear. I did a poll at BFF, which I can not access, due to my illicit banning, called 'Hallucinations while Driving' or something like that. A large percentage of people at BFF responded that they had hallucinated while driving. There are many examples of the things I am referring to in that thread. So either a large percentage of people interested in Bigfoot have jobs or lives which deprive them of sleep, or a large percentage of Bigfoot Forum readers have sleep disorders or other Hallucination inducing factors, such as those you listed above. Mercury, Bad Water, Paint Fumes, Prescription Drug use, Non-Prescription Drug use... etc...

ETA: if someone could link to the poll at BFF, I'd appreciate it.

Here is your link to the BFF Poll you don't have to be a member to access it, simply cut and pasted your thread name into google.

After you ran that poll Drew did you correlate the data from the responses and if you did, what was the consensus on the type of hallucination? How many saw Bigfoot or any creepy unreal creature?

I appreciate your explanation about why your interested in Sleep Paralysis and hallucination, yet from your description of seeing shapes in the dark of inanimate objects that are truly there and the brain is trying to put them into a recognizable pattern is a common phenomena and not hallucinatory related.

I have this happen on a regular basis while in the forest, day or night, seeing something from a distance whether straight on or peripheral and that brain moment where I'm trying to figure out what I'm seeing. I don't consider that sleep deprivation related.

I do not disagree with fatigued driver's, statistically it's up there with teen age driver's and cell phones as some of the highest reasons for motor vehicle accidents yet are you saying from your research that the fatigued driver has been proven to have a higher percentage of hallucination attributes contributing to driver error or do most fatigued drivers simply fall asleep at the wheel?

The BFF poll does not provide a proper data set to make any quantifiable determination.

I'm a retired EMT, I have responded to many calls of folks who have collapsed and in all my years have not met a single one with a patient history of Narcolepsy, of course many do have sleep apnea and are very overweight with other associated health problems. I don't feel John has any reason to demand a test for a condition he doesn't feel he had at 17 years old. It's not a condition where it's a one time occurance.

Tube gave an excellent example and a link to his website about how the brain perceives something as simple as a bag moving in the wind on the ground while a person is in a moving vehicle and how the brain interpreted this object. It didn't relate to fatigue or to a history of undiagnosed narcolepsy or cataplexy, it simply was an object with a shape and color and movement that the brain did not immediately recognize.

I feel you are placing a great deal of emphasis on a condition that worries You specifically Drew. Do you have Narcolepsy, have you experienced Cataplexy? Do you have sleep apnea and have had it since your teens?

You mention hallucinatory states of people that have had accidents and made claims of objects that don't exist. Yes, I have treated folks at numerous accident scenes where they believed something and in the end Drew, there were generally always a medical reason for their beliefs about their incident, drugs and alcohol, diabetes, blood pressure related issues from heart conditions, stress, and of course severe fatigue. Yet, in my experience, fatigue was low on the list compared to other medical conditions or use of drugs and alcohol.

Hallucinating Bigfoot, now that's a very subjective hallucination. Most people as you pointed out will hallucinate known objects. Can hallucination be attributed to Bigfoot sightings? I'm sure it can and if one were to dig very deep into a witness sighting and asked the proper questions without going against HIPAA legal requirements, I'm sure there will be a few folks out there with disorders that can be attributed to medical conditions creating delusion. I feel that would be fairly rare considering the number of reports.

Did SugarB hallucinate and share it with her husband? Did you hallucinate or did you experience the common phenomena of the brain trying to put into perspective an object not seen clearly under less than optimal visual conditions?

In John's experience he relates what he sees from the deer stand, he sees a small bear, he thinks it might be a cub, perhaps Mama bear wasn't far behind. Bears stink. John's experience in the forest from his statements is "none" before this.

Why would John's suspect hallucination in my opinion act like a bear, stop and eat like a bear, have a large mass like a bear (earlier he witnessed a bear) and possibly stink like a bear? I'm much more inclined to believe that with John's lack of experience, being left alone in a strange environment to kill an animal without knowledge of hunting that he simply was overcome by more pressure and anxiety than he could withstand. I do not truly enjoy encounters with bear and it's a yearly encounter for me more than once on several occasions, and I sure wouldn't want to have my first one as a young person alone far from people that have knowledge and understanding of the environment, the animals in that environment and how to properly defend oneself with a firearm that I've never used. Only John can really explain his real state of mind concerning his experience, he's given some helpful clues in his story.

John has listed his physical symptoms that day several times. He does not claim sleep apnea and I really have to wonder how many healthy and athletically fit non drug or alcohol using 17 years old suffer from sleep apnea. He did not complain of fatigue, he did not complain of symptoms related specifically to a sleep apnea disorder because it doesn't occur only once. He would have been suffering the effects of a sleep apnea condition before and after his experience.

John has claimed over and over this only happened once. The conditions you suggest are medical issues that occur more than once and require treatment. At 17 I'm going to go by John's own health assessment that he was in good shape. At his present age and health I would say sleep apnea would be a concern.

I'm not an expert, I'm trying to correlate where your coming from and why you feel based on the information John has given multiple times that his health at age 17 would have been conducive to a singular occurance of a condition that most people have consistently.

I look forward to perhaps John discussing his reasoning why this doesn't fit his experience without going into a full disclosure of his personal health. John are you willing to discuss the points I brought up concerning your state of mind and any anxieties you had about this trip and the expected killing of an animal, also being left alone out there.

I also look forward to further discussion with you Drew on your research findings and how they apply to "some" Bigfoot sightings. I do not discount that sleep related disorders can be attributed to a small number of witness reports. I just don't feel from John's explanation that it fits his experience.

 

[Drewbot]

Here is your link to the BFF Poll you don't have to be a member to access it, simply cut and pasted your thread name into google.

They have my IP address blocked, so I can see a cached page on google, but can't flip through it.

See above post

My point being that Hallucinations are a common occurence, and a much better explanation than a Giant, Unclassified Hairy Biped running around in driveways, backyards and medium sized northeastern cities.

The reason I am pinpointing Narcolepsy with WGBH, is that he had what appears to be an episode of cataplexy triggered by fear. Cataplexy can occur in otherwise healthy people. Maybe he did see a bear, but his collapse at an emotional time, coupled with his years of bad dreams, and the fact that he hasn't had an MSLT tells me he may be one of the many cases of undiagnosed narcolepsy.

I also look forward to further discussion with you Drew on your research findings and how they apply to "some" Bigfoot sightings. I do not discount that sleep related disorders can be attributed to a small number of witness reports. I just don't feel from John's explanation that it fits his experience.

I am only saying that sleep related hallucinations/paralysis account for some sightings as well. And as I explained above, John does fit in well with narcolepsy. Cataplexy does not manifest itself in all Narcolepsy patients, the key to diagnosing narcolepsy is the SOREM (sleep-onset-REM)which are the cause of sleep paralysis, hynogogic hallucinations. Narcolepsy is indicated by a positive SOREM in 2 to 3 or more of 5 naps in an MSLT test.

John, have you ever been as frightened as you were that day when you collapsed?