Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[kitakaze]

It's pretty rare that people will lie to, and decieve others, simply for 'recreation'...for the fun of it.

Oh Sweet Fancy Moses. Sweaty, why oh why oh why do you make it so easy for me?

I saw a small Bigfoot on Mt. St. Helens in 1973. They are real!

Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy!

John's testimony about what he saw goes way beyond 'just posting something on the internet'.

That I will agree with.

 

[rockinkt]

I'm trying to address something that I felt could cause you to get upset and storm off. I wanted to show that while it's not unreasonable for BD and rock to think the way they do, I'm showing you I don't think you are lying.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

I did not state that I thought John was lying.
I merely pointed out the fact that if one is willing to lie about one situation to put themselves in a better light - one has to factor that willingness to lie into the overall assessment of that person's credibility.

Personally - I think John did see something - but over the years has either consciously and/or unconsciously added to that memory.
I think this is a huge factor in many alleged sightings.

Obtaining statements from witnesses before they have a chance to talk to other witnesses or think about what they have seen is a very important lesson one learns in law enforcement.

Memory is not a snapshot - it a construct that can be altered. That is something that every good investigator knows.

Science is just getting around to "proving" it.

Now, Loftus and many of her colleagues believe that memories are constantly being updated to fit "post-event information," such as events, details, and comments that are experienced later.
http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/false_memories.html

 

[kitakaze]

Please do not put words in my mouth.

I did not state that I thought John was lying.
I merely pointed out the fact that if one is willing to lie about one situation to put themselves in a better light - one has to factor that willingness to lie into the overall assessment of that person's credibility.

Personally - I think John did see something - but over the years has either consciously and/or unconsciously added to that memory.
I think this is a huge factor in many alleged sightings.

Obtaining statements from witnesses before they have a chance to talk to other witnesses or think about what they have seen is a very important lesson one learns in law enforcement.

Memory is not a snapshot - it a construct that can be altered. That is something that every good investigator knows.

Science is just getting around to "proving" it.

Now, Loftus and many of her colleagues believe that memories are constantly being updated to fit "post-event information," such as events, details, and comments that are experienced later.
http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/false_memories.html

My apologies, rock. I didn't mean to state that you've categorically adopted a stance that John is lying. You raise excellent points which I was thinking about when talking with John about the nature of what he saw. I was going to say that I will accept that he wasn't misidentifying a known animal but then found that I couldn't sit with the idea without objection. You're very right in keeping on the table that John did not have some sleep-state experience but rather an altered memory of something truly seen.

All avenues need to be considered and first and foremost the idea that John did in fact see what he thinks he saw. I'm sure you can understand my desire for this conversation to proceed in a way where John feels he is benefitting from it and isn't being attacked. I only said what I did to respect the notion initiated by BD and encouraged to be fairly considered by you yet quell any feeling by John that he is about to be ganged up on. I want John to fairly consider all possibilities on the table and not end up walking away from the discussion because of the inevitable point where somebody questions his motives. I'm just trying to be mindful of the way he perceives the discussion because from what I have seen, he will easily decide the room will turn on him.

 

[desertgal]

All avenues need to be considered and first and foremost the idea that John did in fact see what he thinks he saw.

The problem there, of course, is that that question can never be answered. For one thing, the existence of such a creature has never been established. For another, human memory is extremely fallible. For a third, even with his description, we can't see inside his head. Since John is adamant that his memory is correct, we reach a stalemate with other explanations.

It's not that I don't want to help him, but that I don't see how we can. In the end, we'll be left with a circular debate - he believes in what he saw, and we can't establish otherwise.

 

[desertgal]

How many people engage in 'casual, recreational lies', decieving their friends and their family, for years on end?

You've obviously never read the VisionFromFeeling threads.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

You've obviously never read the VisionFromFeeling threads.

so true

 

[WGBH]

If you haven't noticed I'm on this kick trying to get you to see the irrational side of Bigfootery and to realize that it can apply to those in your tribe as well. Check this quote from what I suspect might be an excellent new skeptical book about Bigfoot and Bigfootery that William Parcher linked in another thread:

I have seen the irrational side of Bigfootry Kitakaze. I see it every day. It sickens me.

You're welcome, John. I thought that was neat knowing your great friendship with Billy Willard and all he has done for you to see your first words to him. I disagree with Billy. He is helping you by taking you in the woods, which is fantastic, but he is also encouraging you to think you really did see a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. Of course you know I find that very hard to accept. IMO, it would almost be better to come up with some Burgstahler-type paranormal explanation than to talk about a giant creature like that being a real species roaming the eastern U.S.. It certainly can't compete with human mind explanations which we know are very real phenomena.

Billy has not encouraged me about my sighting being real. Billy and I do not talk about it much because he knows it bothers me.

Let me ask you an honest question. Has anyone recently told you something to the effect of to be careful about letting those bastard skoftics get inside your head with sneaky psychobabble and getting you confused about what you know you saw? I think that is probably the case. Yeah, that's me. I'm that guy. I'm the one that is trying to get you to see that so much of what you talk about very, very easily fits within human mind explanations. None of them means you're bat$#!% crazy. They just mean you're human and susceptible to the same conditions as everybody else.

No, They are not worried about skoftics getting inside my head. They are worried about me getting beaten up.

When I was a kid I could have sworn I saw a ghost or some kind of phantasm. Looking back I realized that I was an imaginative kid at the time who was walking the dark and scary way home and had the coolest wall-eyed old Chinese-Canadian school teacher who would freak the crap out of you with ghost stories to the class. You may not think that a monster apeman would make any sense for your mind to make up but there could have been any number of external stimuli that could have been responsible. Something you may not have remembered at all. You could have watched The Legend of Boggy Creek on afternoon matinee TV a month or year before and it went into your mind and linked to that part of you that's afraid of the woods. Who knows? You might have experienced some trauma in the woods that your mind has recreated as a Bigfoot encounter.

I only saw Boggy Creek a few years ago on you tube. It was Campy and the impression it made on some people as children is lost on me.

The starting point is for you to begin to understand that a species of animal that grows as large as 9 x 6 ft and lives in places like Ohio, Virginia, California, and New York is not going to remain undiscovered by science. It's ludicrous and absurd and the problem right now is that you're surrounded by people with flawed reasoning that are telling you otherwise. I'm not saying that Bigfoot is impossible and your friends like Melissa who don't want you to be affected by teh skoftiks will try and create the false image that we're unreasonable and our minds are just too closed to deal with the truth. So what's the truth then, John? Is someone like Melissa Hovey better equipped to tell you about the truth regarding Bigfoot. Dude. Melissa doesn't know any facts about Bigfoot. Nothing. Nani mo nai. She will be the first to admit that. She hasn't even found a decent, clear maybe Bigfoot print until you guys went together last month to Salt Fork State Park in Ohio and that had only two recognizable digits, was tiny, and was acknowledged as easily being bear.

Kitakaze, the people I research with do not approach potential evidence as Bigfoot related. They spend most of their time trying to debunk it.

So who knows? Well, you have people like Pywacket telling you you're a "knower" because you've seen one with your own eyes. What Pywacket should do is reading where I quoted a large chunk of your encounter story and put in vivid colour the parts that are very consistent with some kind of sleep-related phenomenom. You're 90% certain that the image of the massive beast that turned it face in your direction for just but a moment from 50 yards away in your memory in your mind was nothing but a Bigfoot. I'll agree with that. All I want you to consider was that it may never have really been there.

You know, because friends don't let friends believe in Bigfoot:

Pywacket was only trying to show his support for what I am attempting to do here.


Thanks, I'll look for those shows. So on those three shows did you share your encounter story three times?

Yes, I talked about it. I probably was nervous and made some errors too, which I am sure will be dissected.



Oh, c'mon, John. That's not the way they're talking at all. Eric said...



Look at that video again from 3:28 at Eric and Mike's storytelling after Don Keating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

They're talking Bigfoot to Bigfoot enthusiasts. They're enticing the people gathered around them and listening intently to believe they encountered Bigfoot. That they never use the definitive words "we saw Bigfoot" is irrelevant. They're engaging in the game of Woods & Wildmen. They're out in the woods hoping to experience and if they're lucky they can have their turn at storytelling and at belief reaffirmation time. They're talking about something throwing a couch pillow-sized rock being tossed and how terrified they were. It's prime Bigfootery. Let's go back Eric's turn with the talking stick (wait, holy crap. That stick he's holding... is that actually a talking stick?)...

See, John, that's Bigfootery. That's what Bigfootery is - Eric laying down the heavy Bigfoot vibes with a few casual and unimportant disclaimers while people hang on every word while guys are walking around the crowd with cameras and mics. That was the ABS expedition to Salt Fork State Park and look how those guys were behaving.

Does that behaviour not look at least a little silly to you?

Yes they are talking to Bigfoot enthusiasts. It is a Bigfoot conference. What they are discussing had nothing to do with the ABS. The encounter they are discussing happened in October 2008 and neither of them are ABS members. The crowd is very interested because that is what they come there for, to hear Bigfoot encounter stories. As silly as that may seem to scoftics.

What you don't see is the crowd of Bigfoot researchers standing waaay in the rear with bored looks on their faces. What you do not see is that someone had placed a hoaxed Bigfoot print in a spot during the tour that it would be found. You do not see Don Keating pointing it out and pointing out why the print is fake to all of those people. When I told my encounter story I was shocked by the reaction. I always expect laughs and ridicule. What I expect is what I received in that article from New Zealand.

Do not use a Bigfoot conference as a example of what goes on in Bigfoot research. Promoting a DVD and conference and giving a crowd what they came there for is not the same thing.

The rest of your post are personal issues you seem to have with Melissa. I have nothing to do with that and will not comment on it.

 

[kitakaze]

I have seen the irrational side of Bigfootry Kitakaze. I see it every day. It sickens me.

Let's not forget the dishonest, profiteering side of Bigfootery, too. I'm sure you must feel differently now but was there never a time you supported Tom Biscardi or hoaxers like him?

I can appreciate how the dishonest or irrational side must try your patience. What is the rational side of Bigfootery, though? I'm not saying there isn't one but what is going on in Bigfootery that isn't mired but poor critical thinking and the will to believe? What puts Bigfoot research on better footing than, say, UFO research or ghost research?

The more interesting question is about the irrational side of John. That part of you that is gripped by panic and fear when you are in the woods. The irrational fear of a creature you almost certainly didn't actually see and have no real reason to be afraid of. How do you think is the best way of dealing with all the damage that experience you remember having has done to your lifestyle and personal freedom?

Billy has not encouraged me about my sighting being real. Billy and I do not talk about it much because he knows it bothers me.

Really? He never encouraged you to think you really saw a 9 x 6 monster apeman? Did anyone encourage you to speak here?:

Billy introducing you (The World's Greatest Bigfoot Hunter):



You telling your story:



BTW, you said there that when the creature first stepped out you thought "OK, cool. It's a bear," but when it reached out you saw it had a hand and then you thought "Oh my god, this is Bigfoot." You said you then had a panic attack. I find it a bit strange that you would immediately associate what you were seeing with Bigfoot. Rock and others are suggesting that might have a distorted memory of something real. You had zero experience being in the woods and were under very stressful conditions. You didn't submit a written report of what happened until 16 years after the event. If I had to write a report about a cougar I saw around 16 years ago on Vancouver Island, I know for sure that I would be messing up basic and key details of the encounter. I was looking at it from about the same distance as you for about the same period of time.

No, They are not worried about skoftics getting inside my head. They are worried about me getting beaten up.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by beaten up. Do you mean having your credibility questioned? That's rather inevitable, isn't it? You felt you've been beaten up at the BFF. Do you feel that your treatment here has been less than reasonable?

I only saw Boggy Creek a few years ago on you tube. It was Campy and the impression it made on some people as children is lost on me.

Yeah, I just watched it again not so long ago and had the same reaction. You're missing the point, though, which is that there could have been any number of stimuli to allow your mind to create what you remember seeing. It doesn't need to be a movie you saw when you were young and don't remember but that hasn't been ruled out.

Kitakaze, the people I research with do not approach potential evidence as Bigfoot related. They spend most of their time trying to debunk it.

Right, so what evidence from the ABS Salt Fork expedition was difficult to explain without Bigfoot?

Pywacket was only trying to show his support for what I am attempting to do here.

That's cool but Pywacket was classifying you as a "knower". As in you know that Bigfoot exists. I don't think it can be said at all that you know Bigfoot exists. Again, what is the silver bullet that would destroy the possibilty that you experienced a sleep-related phenomenom or had faulty memory?

Yes, I talked about it. I probably was nervous and made some errors too, which I am sure will be dissected.

I've looked for the three shows you mentioned. All the links are busted. Do you know one that works? BTW, John, you're claiming you saw a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. You should expect people to dissect your testimony. Extraordinary claims and all that jazz.

The rest of your post are personal issues you seem to have with Melissa. I have nothing to do with that and will not comment on it.

Sure thing. I can see how asking your opinion about the ability of the board you are an administrator of to handle the civil contributions of an informed skeptic puts you in an uncomfortable position. Please understand, however, that while I consider irrational behaviour at the SFB and the ABS worthy of discussion, any criticism I have does not need to be taken as reflecting on you personally.

 

[WGBH]

Let's not forget the dishonest, profiteering side of Bigfootery, too. I'm sure you must feel differently now but was there never a time you supported Tom Biscardi or hoaxers like him?

Yes, there was a time I listened to Tom's show. He even asked me to come on it and tell about my encounter. Luckily people who knew better warned me to steer clear of him and I did. I used to consider Steve Kulls a friend also.


I can appreciate how the dishonest or irrational side must try your patience. What is the rational side of Bigfootery, though? I'm not saying there isn't one but what is going on in Bigfootery that isn't mired but poor critical thinking and the will to believe? What puts Bigfoot research on better footing than, say, UFO research or ghost research?

I don't know enough about ghost and UFO research to comment on that. I only know that the researchers I work with are not bad critical thinkers.

The more interesting question is about the irrational side of John. That part of you that is gripped by panic and fear when you are in the woods. The irrational fear of a creature you almost certainly didn't actually see and have no real reason to be afraid of. How do you think is the best way of dealing with all the damage that experience you remember having has done to your lifestyle and personal freedom?


I did see it. It stood right there in front of me. I am dealing with my fears by getting back out there. It seems to be working except for the sleep issues.



Really? He never encouraged you to think you really saw a 9 x 6 monster apeman?

Did anyone encourage you to speak here?:

Yes, when the Monster Quest producer did not show up, Don Keating asked me to speak about my encounter. It was not planned, I was only at the conference to attend. I told him I was scared but I would do it. I also told him I would feel more comfortable doing it as a part of Billy's presentation.
Hence Billy introducing me.

And Hell yes I am the World's Greatest Bigfooter! I have found as much evidence as anyone has, Nothing.


BTW, you said there that when the creature first stepped out you thought "OK, cool. It's a bear," but when it reached out you saw it had a hand and then you thought "Oh my god, this is Bigfoot." You said you then had a panic attack. I find it a bit strange that you would immediately associate what you were seeing with Bigfoot. Rock and others are suggesting that might have a distorted memory of something real. You had zero experience being in the woods and were under very stressful conditions. You didn't submit a written report of what happened until 16 years after the event. If I had to write a report about a cougar I saw around 16 years ago on Vancouver Island, I know for sure that I would be messing up basic and key details of the encounter. I was looking at it from about the same distance as you for about the same period of time.

Why would you find it hard for me to associate a Big ape like creature with hands as a Bigfoot? Yes I was panicky. My memory of the event is fine.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by beaten up. Do you mean having your credibility questioned? That's rather inevitable, isn't it? You felt you've been beaten up at the BFF. Do you feel that your treatment here has been less than reasonable?

No, they meant getting insulted and made fun of and only a few have done that. So it's not so bad thus far.



Yeah, I just watched it again not so long ago and had the same reaction. You're missing the point, though, which is that there could have been any number of stimuli to allow your mind to create what you remember seeing. It doesn't need to be a movie you saw when you were young and don't remember but that hasn't been ruled out.

I told everyone what I knew about Bigfoot. I had casually seen the PGF (and most of the planet has) but did not pay much attention to it and cant really remember when and where I saw it. I also saw Bigfoot fight the six million dollar man. I also think there was a live action cartoon show on Saturday mornings that had Bigfoot in it, but I can remember the name of it. That's about all I can think of.



Right, so what evidence from the ABS Salt Fork expedition was difficult to explain without Bigfoot?

I am not following this question. All evidence is difficult to explain as Bigfoot. It could have been any number of things such as other animals and people.
Why are you singling out the ABS other then your dislike for Melissa?

That's cool but Pywacket was classifying you as a "knower". As in you know that Bigfoot exists. I don't think it can be said at all that you know Bigfoot exists. Again, what is the silver bullet that would destroy the possibilty that you experienced a sleep-related phenomenon or had faulty memory?

Well some people do know that Bigfoot exists. They just have no proof. The silver bullet would be if the sleep related phenomenon happened to me AGAIN. It has not. My memory of that event is fine.



I've looked for the three shows you mentioned. All the links are busted. Do you know one that works? BTW, John, you're claiming you saw a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. You should expect people to dissect your testimony. Extraordinary claims and all that jazz.

I looked also. I cannot find them either. I think I still have them on my Ipod.

I don't care, dissect away, you can find holes in anything if you look long enough. I know I can.

 

[DogB]

My memory of the event is fine.

Just a point to think about John.

I’m a scientist, Between my training and my work I’ve been a practicing scientist for more than twenty years now. I’ve been professionally trained to have a good memory and an iron grip on reality.

On one occasion that I know about (and I’m sure many more that I don’t) my memory has fooled me completely. I argued with 3 equally qualified colleges about what we had seen and eventually had to drive a 1000 mile round trip to finally convince myself of how badly I had fooled myself.

I believed (right in my gut) I knew what I had seen. I can still produce the mental image right now. And it’s wrong…just plain wrong.

Don’t underestimate the potential for your brain to fool itself. It doesn’t mean you’re stupid, crazy or weak willed. It just means you’re human.

 

[Spektator]

Way, way upthread I told of how late one night I was driving on a lonely road when off to the side I saw this seven-foot tall shambling thing, brown, with a tiny head for its size. It took me a second to register that it was a guy with a kid riding on his shoulders and a dark brown raincoat draped over them both. For a moment there I really thought I had seen a "creature" of some kind, and even now when I remember how it first looked--well, if I hadn't slowed enough to recognize the two for what they were, I'd have an encounter story to tell.

 

[kitakaze]

Yes, there was a time I listened to Tom's show. He even asked me to come on it and tell about my encounter. Luckily people who knew better warned me to steer clear of him and I did. I used to consider Steve Kulls a friend also.

Right. I had this in mind when I asked you that:

John Cartwright responds:
July 4th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Hello Everyone,

Mr. Kulls and Ms. Sawyer are Smart, honest and professional. You can trust them to give educated and experienced opinions of reported sightings. Mr. Biscardi can sometimes be over enthusiastic when it comes to being in the media spotlight, but he is very passionate about solving the mystery. Please remember Tom and his team are out there giving a great effort daily.

John Cartwright

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/kulls-biscardi/

It's good that you've found people of better repute to explore Bigfoot with.

I don't know enough about ghost and UFO research to comment on that. I only know that the researchers I work with are not bad critical thinkers.

I won't say that the people you are involved with in Bigfootery now are gullible or very bad critical thinkers but I think when you are seriously making an effort to find Bigfoot evidence near the handicapped section of Salt Fork State Park in Ohio, it's not unfair to question what critical thinking leads them to believe there is that potential to find something reliable in the way of evidence.

I did see it. It stood right there in front of me. I am dealing with my fears by getting back out there. It seems to be working except for the sleep issues.

But it did not stand right in front of you. You said it was 50 yards away. Also, now your downplaying the severe effects of your PTSD where before you were emphasizing them. An inability to be in the woods without gripping fear, not being able to get proper sleep, and waking up screaming all the time is not fine.

Why would you find it hard for me to associate a Big ape like creature with hands as a Bigfoot? Yes I was panicky. My memory of the event is fine.

I don't think it is. I don't think you can clearly judge how accurate your memory of a 27 year old events is. It may be vivid in your mind but that in no way means it's accurate. I have plenty of vivid memories of things that didn't actually happen or happen the way I remember them. John, I can show you people who have had apparent encounters with reptoids as vivid as anything you experienced. These people will not be swayed from the idea they saw in front of their eyes a reptilian humanoid far closer than your Bigfoot. Those reptilian humanoid sightings are no less fantastical than your 9 x 6 ft monster apeman.

I told everyone what I knew about Bigfoot. I had casually seen the PGF (and most of the planet has) but did not pay much attention to it and cant really remember when and where I saw it. I also saw Bigfoot fight the six million dollar man. I also think there was a live action cartoon show on Saturday mornings that had Bigfoot in it, but I can remember the name of it. That's about all I can think of.

Again, please try and understand that remembering the source of a stimulus that would allow you to create a monster apeman in your mind doesn't need at all to be conciously remembered. There doesn't even need to be one. That is the human mind. It can create things you've never seen. It can create things you never remember having seen.

I am not following this question. All evidence is difficult to explain as Bigfoot. It could have been any number of things such as other animals and people.
Why are you singling out the ABS other then your dislike for Melissa?

It has nothing to do with petty beefs with Melissa's weirdness. I bring up the ABS expedition simply because that was something you were personally involved in and have it in your capacity to objectively reflect upon. The question which you answered is that there is no good reason to think your group found any good evidence of Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park.

Well some people do know that Bigfoot exists. They just have no proof. The silver bullet would be if the sleep related phenomenon happened to me AGAIN. It has not. My memory of that event is fine.

No, John. Nobody knows Bigfoot exists. Without empirical knowledge there is no knowing in any verifiable way. For you to say that demonstrates a desire to believe.

That is no kind of silver bullet. The human mind doesn't work that way. Think about the uniqueness of the circumstances of the situation you were in. I've already pointed them out and how they are easily conducive to unreliable memories. I have personally experienced a vivid memory that I can describe in intricate detail of a massive spider clamping onto my hand with its wicked fangs. It never happened. I can describe in better detail than your Bigfoot what my spider looked like and the sensation of its attack while I was unable to resist it. These are the things the mind can do. I'm not nuts and I know that there wasn't any real huge spider accosting me. It never happened again. Just becaus eit didn't happen again doesn't mean I went to the exterminator asking to get the fat, evil spiders out of my home.

If you refuse to consider any possibility beyond actually having seen what you think you did 27 years ago, there is nothing your participation in this thread can come to. If you want to be a free man liberated from crippling fear, you can at least try to consider the things we are talking about to you. Frankly, once you've decide there is no way you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster apeman, you're too far gone. There's no turning back.

 

[tsig]

Right. I had this in mind when I asked you that:



http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/kulls-biscardi/

It's good that you've found people of better repute to explore Bigfoot with.



I won't say that the people you are involved with in Bigfootery now are gullible or very bad critical thinkers but I think when you are seriously making an effort to find Bigfoot evidence near the handicapped section of Salt Fork State Park in Ohio, it's not unfair to question what critical thinking leads them to believe there is that potential to find something reliable in the way of evidence.



But it did not stand right in front of you. You said it was 50 yards away. Also, now your downplaying the severe effects of your PTSD where before you were emphasizing them. An inability to be in the woods without gripping fear, not being able to get proper sleep, and waking up screaming all the time is not fine.



I don't think it is. I don't think you can clearly judge how accurate your memory of a 27 year old events is. It may be vivid in your mind but that in no way means it's accurate. I have plenty of vivid memories of things that didn't actually happen or happen the way I remember them. John, I can show you people who have had apparent encounters with reptoids as vivid as anything you experienced. These people will not be swayed from the idea they saw in front of their eyes a reptilian humanoid far closer than your Bigfoot. Those reptilian humanoid sightings are no less fantastical than your 9 x 6 ft monster apeman.



Again, please try and understand that remembering the source of a stimulus that would allow you to create a monster apeman in your mind doesn't need at all to be conciously remembered. There doesn't even need to be one. That is the human mind. It can create things you've never seen. It can create things you never remember having seen.



It has nothing to do with petty beefs with Melissa's weirdness. I bring up the ABS expedition simply because that was something you were personally involved in and have it in your capacity to objectively reflect upon. The question which you answered is that there is no good reason to think your group found any good evidence of Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park.



No, John. Nobody knows Bigfoot exists. Without empirical knowledge there is no knowing in any verifiable way. For you to say that demonstrates a desire to believe.

That is no kind of silver bullet. The human mind doesn't work that way. Think about the uniqueness of the circumstances of the situation you were in. I've already pointed them out and how they are easily conducive to unreliable memories. I have personally experienced a vivid memory that I can describe in intricate detail of a massive spider clamping onto my hand with its wicked fangs. It never happened. I can describe in better detail than your Bigfoot what my spider looked like and the sensation of its attack while I was unable to resist it. These are the things the mind can do. I'm not nuts and I know that there wasn't any real huge spider accosting me. It never happened again. Just becaus eit didn't happen again doesn't mean I went to the exterminator asking to get the fat, evil spiders out of my home.

If you refuse to consider any possibility beyond actually having seen what you think you did 27 years ago, there is nothing your participation in this thread can come to. If you want to be a free man liberated from crippling fear, you can at least try to consider the things we are talking about to you. Frankly, once you've decide there is no way you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster apeman, you're too far gone. There's no turning back.

I think I need a BF dictionary:

Field Work = camping in state parks

Research = gossiping about said camping trips

Sightings = everything except seeing BF

 

[WGBH]

Right. I had this in mind when I asked you that:

It's good that you've found people of better repute to explore Bigfoot with.

Yes, it certainly is. And I never explored anything with them except chatting on the internet.



I won't say that the people you are involved with in Bigfootery now are gullible or very bad critical thinkers but I think when you are seriously making an effort to find Bigfoot evidence near the handicapped section of Salt Fork State Park in Ohio, it's not unfair to question what critical thinking leads them to believe there is that potential to find something reliable in the way of evidence.

Because there have been SEVERAL sighting reports from that specific area.



But it did not stand right in front of you. You said it was 50 yards away. Also, now your downplaying the severe effects of your PTSD where before you were emphasizing them. An inability to be in the woods without gripping fear, not being able to get proper sleep, and waking up screaming all the time is not fine.

I am not downplaying anything. I just try not to dwell on them. They are always there.


I don't think it is. I don't think you can clearly judge how accurate your memory of a 27 year old events is. It may be vivid in your mind but that in no way means it's accurate. I have plenty of vivid memories of things that didn't actually happen or happen the way I remember them. John, I can show you people who have had apparent encounters with reptoids as vivid as anything you experienced. These people will not be swayed from the idea they saw in front of their eyes a reptilian humanoid far closer than your Bigfoot. Those reptilian humanoid sightings are no less fantastical than your 9 x 6 ft monster apeman.

That is just your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Again, please try and understand that remembering the source of a stimulus that would allow you to create a monster apeman in your mind doesn't need at all to be conciously remembered. There doesn't even need to be one. That is the human mind. It can create things you've never seen. It can create things you never remember having seen.

OK



The question which you answered is that there is no good reason to think your group found any good evidence of Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park.


Not until we hear from the parties who are studying the evidence and a report is finished.



No, John. Nobody knows Bigfoot exists. Without empirical knowledge there is no knowing in any verifiable way. For you to say that demonstrates a desire to believe.

A desire to believe? What thread have you been reading? I do believe. I saw one.

That is no kind of silver bullet. The human mind doesn't work that way. Think about the uniqueness of the circumstances of the situation you were in. I've already pointed them out and how they are easily conducive to unreliable memories. I have personally experienced a vivid memory that I can describe in intricate detail of a massive spider clamping onto my hand with its wicked fangs. It never happened. I can describe in better detail than your Bigfoot what my spider looked like and the sensation of its attack while I was unable to resist it. These are the things the mind can do. I'm not nuts and I know that there wasn't any real huge spider accosting me. It never happened again. Just becausei t didn't happen again doesn't mean I went to the exterminator asking to get the fat, evil spiders out of my home.

What brought that spider sighting on ?

If you refuse to consider any possibility beyond actually having seen what you think you did 27 years ago, there is nothing your participation in this thread can come to. If you want to be a free man liberated from crippling fear, you can at least try to consider the things we are talking about to you. Frankly, once you've decide there is no way you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster apeman, you're too far gone. There's no turning back.

Fine, I can live with that.

I guess this means we are done here?

 

[atpeace]

I think I need a BF dictionary:

Field Work = camping in state parks

Research = gossiping about said camping trips

Sightings = everything except seeing BF

And don't forget:

Peer Review = "Yeah, I heard it too!"

ap

 

[WGBH]

I think I need a BF dictionary:

Field Work = camping in state parks

Well, unless you have a huge chunk of private property with a history of sightings, where else would you suggest we do field work except public land?

Research = gossiping about said camping trips

No research is work, gossiping is what you are doing here on the forums.

Sightings = everything except seeing BF

I saw one, scroll up and read.

 

[desertyeti]

And don't forget:

Peer Review = "Yeah, I heard it too!"

ap

Data = "anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Analysis = "telling you how to interpret anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Multiple Working Hypotheses = "what's that?! Bigfoot IS the answer! Kneel before Patty!"

 

[WGBH]

Data = "anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Analysis = "telling you how to interpret anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Multiple Working Hypotheses = "what's that?! Bigfoot IS the answer! Kneel before Patty!"

Can't argue with that. We have nothing and too many present nothing as evidence.

 

[SweatyYeti]

WGBH wrote:

I guess this means we are done here?

This discussion was done, as soon as it began, John.


That's the reason why I posted this...back on page 3...post #119...

Here is a beautiful example of the weight attributed to Bigfoot evidence, in Randi-Land......


I recently asked kitakaze...(a.k.a..."Thunder-Cheeks")....to provide an example of 'Bigfoot evidence' which carries some amount of weight....(weak, or moderately strong)....

Give us all ONE example of Bigfoot evidence which carries either a low, fair, or moderate amount of weight, indicating Bigfoot may exist.

And this is the strongest-rated evidence he could come up with...

Sure thing, Fibby... err... Sweaty.

The PGF has the extremely remote chance of actually showing a Bigfoot.

"Extremely remote"...


How then could John's report possibly be given any weight, above only a 'remote probability'?



This just in.....from Old Thunder-Butt......

Incredibly poor or weak evidence to suggest Bigfoot may exist? Yes.

Reliable or high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch.

Here are some more recent quotes, highlighting the 'potential weight' a sighting report can have, here in Randi-Land...

Vortigern:

You are dismissing reasonable alternatives to your fantasy that a 9 foot beast dwells....

kitakaze:

Nobody knows Bigfoot exists.

And, a not-so-recent gem....from Greg......


"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

 

[WGBH]

So what's the big deal SY? I can talk about it here, if I am asked. I am fine with that.