Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

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Eliminating circumstances such seeing things that aren't actually there or a person making things up or embellishing them is a matter of course. As a person who calls themselves an investigator, you really should be more diligent about this than the average person. In your case, there has been not a single reason to dismiss any of the strong indicators of a sleep-related experience when you were a teenager. Why would my mind create Bigfoot? is certainly not one of them.

In Sugar's case, we're just getting started and removing the issue of lying is important. Should we be lax or something? She says there is a second witness and that it is her husband. Does he not live with her? Are his fingers broken and he can't sit down and type? Sugar mentioned a divorce but I think she also mentioned being currently married. Do you want to take a crack at this? Be my guest. Shall we adopt the cool-story-I-believe-you method? I would think that a person with personal experience of hoaxing would be more judicious.

Feeling guilty? It was not a shot at you or your line of questioning. I really find it difficult to believe that she would not see it coming.

As for your sleep-related experience theory, still did not happen.
 
Feeling guilty?

Not in the slightest. Should I?

It was not a shot at you or your line of questioning. I really find it difficult to believe that she would not see it coming.

Your response to Sugar's strong offence by my questioning carried the implication that she is being unreasonably treated and that she should have known because she read the thread and it happened to you. But the thing is you have not been treated unreasonably or been beat down for saying you saw Bigfoot. Your story has been addressed and it really looks like you did not actually see Bigfoot. Your continued insistance without addressing the issues directly isn't changing anything. That's just the way it goes.

As for your sleep-related experience theory, still did not happen.

Really? Let's have some good reasons to think so. Once again, incredulity at your mind coming up with Bigfoot is not one at all.
 
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Not in the slightest. Should I?



Your response to Sugar's strong offence by my questioning carried the implication that she is being unreasonably treated and that she should have know because she read the thread and it happened to you. But the thing is you have not been treated unreasonably or been beat down for saying you saw Bigfoot. Your story has been addressed and it really looks like you did not actually see Bigfoot. Your continued insistance without addressing the issues directly isn't changing anything. That's just the way it goes.



Really? Let's have some good reasons to think so. Once again, incredulity at your mind coming up with Bigfoot is not one at all.

For those questions, no.

No, the implication is that she should expect tough questions from the scoftics if she had truly been following the thread.
 
For those questions, no.

For what then should I feel guilty?

No, the implication is that she should expect tough questions from the scoftics if she had truly been following the thread.

That is unfortunate that you feel the need to use that silly, tired out word. I am the one asking these questions to which Sugar was offended and thus it is I that you are referring to as a "scoftic". How am I scoffing, John? What am I scoffing at? I have not unfairly dismissed anything. I have not unfairly dismissed that you saw a 9x6 ft Bigfoot in North Carolina in a human inhabited area or that Sugar and her husband saw a 7 footer running towards them in the opposite lane to which they were driving in Arkansas.

I asked for you good reasons not to think you didn't actually see Bigfoot. I asked to give us something to work with why you didn't have some form of sleep-related experience in 1982. All I'm getting is cheesy insults and sidesteps. Why? I've lost count of how many times I've asked, but I've pointed out some major reasons to think that you didn't really see Bigfoot. Once again, anything of substance to abandon those reasons?
 
Kit:
JC is clearly rationalizing what he saw that day. He is afraid to admit that he had a sleep hallucination. He is of the false belief that having a hallucination means you are crazy, and therefore, is replacing the hallucination idea with 'Bigfoot'. He has convinced himself he saw bigfoot as a therapeutic response to knowing he had a hallucination.

JC is a well-publicized example of why I think most people who have 'seen' Bigfoot, have sleep disorders, or have been deprived of sleep for an inordinate amount of time.
 
I know someone already posted a "bear walking on its hind legs" video, but I still want to recommend interested parties to look up "cougar vs. bear" on Youtube.
 
Kit:
JC is clearly rationalizing what he saw that day.

I rationalize that I saw Bigfoot.


He is afraid to admit that he had a sleep hallucination.

I do not admit to things that did not happen.


He is of the false belief that having a hallucination means you are crazy, and therefore, is replacing the hallucination idea with 'Bigfoot'. He has convinced himself he saw bigfoot as a therapeutic response to knowing he had a hallucination.

Nope, wrong again. If that is what happened, I would have had no problem with it.


Admitting to seeing a Bigfoot is therapeutic?:jaw-dropp No, admitting that I DID NOT see a Bigfoot would have been therapeutic.

JC is a well-publicized example of why I think most people who have 'seen' Bigfoot, have sleep disorders, or have been deprived of sleep for an inordinate amount of time.

And you are a well-publicized example of not knowing jack about what happened that day. Please verify that I had a sleep disorder or was deprived of sleep before my sighting. It was not the case.
 
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I asked for you good reasons not to think you didn't actually see Bigfoot. I asked to give us something to work with why you didn't have some form of sleep-related experience in 1982. All I'm getting is cheesy insults and sidesteps. Why? I've lost count of how many times I've asked, but I've pointed out some major reasons to think that you didn't really see Bigfoot. Once again, anything of substance to abandon those reasons?

I gave you good reasons. I was wide awake. I heard, smelled and watched the animal for 5 minutes. I was not hallucinating or having a sleep-related experience. I was not misidentifying a bear.

You pointed out reasons for sure, but not major reasons and they do not apply to what I experienced.
 
I think you have to be a glutton for punishment to claim you saw a bigfoot on the JREF. This place is founded on scoffing. We assume that you must be lying or "sleep hallucinating" :rolleyes: because we start with the premise that bigfoot does not exist. We can then scoff at your claim and dismiss it, because of course you CAN'T be telling the truth, unless you dreamt it.

Good luck with that. ;)
 
I think you have to be a glutton for punishment to claim you saw a bigfoot on the JREF.

Nope, I am not scared at all.


This place is founded on scoffing.

Not according to Kit.:D


We assume that you must be lying or "sleep hallucinating" :rolleyes: because we start with the premise that bigfoot does not exist. We can then scoff at your claim and dismiss it, because of course you CAN'T be telling the truth, unless you dreamt it.

Good luck with that. ;)

That is a ton of assumptions. But of course I am at a disadvantage because of the lack of proof. Thanks for being nice.
 
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kitikaze, based on my limited attention here, my experience with Vortigern and Parcher only makes me respect you and your approach more. Could you remind me and direct me to your exchange with MM a year or two ago?
 
kitikaze, based on my limited attention here, my experience with Vortigern and Parcher only makes me respect you and your approach more. Could you remind me and direct me to your exchange with MM a year or two ago?

I appreciate your compliment, 154. In return, I would offer one to both Vort and WP. Vort is the single best example I can think of why Bigfoot skepticism is not useless. He is the best example of intellectual honesty prevailing over the desire to believe that I can think of where the thing we call Bigfoot is concerned.

As for WP - there can only be one. WP is my very most bestest favouritist experience at the JREF. I often find myself laughing ridiculously to something WP wrote, even months before. I think it is very fitting that WP's handle comes from the name of a character in the film A Beautiful Mind (Ed Harris). I think with happiness about his Christmas cards and eat up his musings. I think WP and I have similar brains, at least where humour and Bigfoot are concerned. If WP ever fell under a bus or some such thing, I would find my JREF time exponentially diminished.

As for the MM reference, I can only assume you are referring to when Bigfoot INC conglomerate Matthew Moneymaker vowed to sue me to next Tuesday. Moneymaker hates me because I expose him as a sheister and would often talk about him and his weiner Bigfoot enthusiast pals scamming people. I don't believe for a second that Moneymaker actually believes Bigfoot exists. If you want to see more Moneymaker/kitakaze controversy, which I think was relatively minor, just google "Moneymaker kitakaze". It's not that exciting, I think, and I fear legal action from pretend-a-lawyer Moneymaker about as much as I fear Bigfoot incidences while camping.
 
Kitakaze, good morning. Allow me to explain to you the reason for my offense, and there are probably two that stand out most to me. One, I read a post you made recently in which you stated that you wanted to "help" people who were troubled by their experience. Well, I have a professional that evaluates my mental and emotional status and treats any problems that arise. She knows my history, my family history, every issue that culminated into the reaction I ultimately had...and she does a very good job at what she does.

Now, I do not know if others who have seen this thing, whatever it is, have mental/emotional issues that they do not disclose...but if they do, I can just about promise you that them believing in "bigfoot" is much less harmful than you basically diagnosing their problems that may or may not exist. This is a skeptic's forum (and I don't like nor do I use the word "scoftic" or however it is spelled). I take that to mean reasonable, thoughtful folks. You should realize the harm you could cause in some of the things you say, particularly if you really really believe someone is having mental issues. That is not "help".

I admitted my problems. I am more than aware of them. Were I to be in some kind of denial or hallucinatory state, I doubt that I would admit my problems or even be aware of them. Were I to want to pull off a "hoax" (I think that word is used a bit loosely), or to lie, I seriously doubt that I would be willing to acknowledge other possibilites, as well as openly admitting things that could falsify my claims, if claims is what we are calling them. Maybe I would, I don't know...because I don't know how mentally ill people who are unaware they are mentally ill behave. My experience with those kinds of people is limited to only two.

To clear up the marital confusion, I was married before. He died a few short months after our divorce, and in fact he had failed to change the beneficiary on one of his policies so I had to straighten that mess out so that his new wife would get the money instead of me. No, wait. I didn't *have* to do that. I did because it was the right thing to do. Were I a person prone to lying and manipulating others for whatever reason, I again am fairly certain that wouldn't be something I would just automatically do.

As to critical thought, I have made no immediate assumptions, even after these few years have passed, as to what it is that we saw. I am still, to this day, questioning it. On the other hand, you and others immediately assumed "lie" or "hoax". One of you has the paranormal ability of spidey senses that apparently got set off. Whatever reasoning is used to justify that, regardless of past experiences with other people, you may disagree but I believe that all people are worthy of more dignity than that. Yes, that is offensive. Yes, that is insulting. No, that has nothing to do with my problems of the past year. That is simply my belief system...although in today's world perhaps that *would* qualify as a mentally unstable belief given how people seem to treat one another.

I have no other details to add. What I saw is limited to what I have already written. As to the precise area, I also wrote the truth about that...we had never been there before and haven't been there since. It was a poor choice of routes to get where we were going, but we didn't know that at the time, obviously. As for there being "bigfoot" in Arkansas of all places, it would be as much a surprise to me as it would be to anyone else, I would suppose. Arkansas.

I grew up right here, and have always remained, in the tri-state area of KY, OH, WV. I have traipsed the woods of just about every state and national forest...even some that have reported sightings before I knew they existed. I have been reading about the sightings in Ohio, and having explored something as big as the Wayne National Forest, I'd never seen or heard or experienced anything that would lead me to believe a "bigfoot" existed there. I had assumed, growing up, that if there were "bigfoot", they would be elusive creatures and so the depths of those woods would perhaps be an ideal place. What we saw on a road coming toward headlights and a moving vehicle at once altered everything I thought I was so sure of.

My husband is at work today (he is a paramedic, 24 hour shifts), and tomorrow we have to go to Pike County to take his mother to an appointment. I will talk to him about registering again, after he has calmed down. He was angry that I was upset. I have worked very hard on dealing with my problems, and when something or someone throws me back into doubt about how well I am doing, he does get angry. I think he was more upset because he had encouraged me to finally discuss this here, too. As it stands, I am to take a break from the internet period. Limit my time. He asks me to do that sometimes because I take too many things to heart...another failing on my part. At any rate, he has a short vacation coming up very soon and that would be a good time if he's interested for him to share what he saw with you. He is not an "internet person", fair warning. He doesn't like talking to people he cannot see and has little patience with forums and online communities, so I wouldn't expect his participation to be long-lived.

I know that I am noone to you, but I seriously suggest that you take into consideration what I have said about mental/emotional disturbances. If a person truly is mentally ill, and hallucinating, and unaware of it, the methods that seem to be favored here will only further drive them toward their own idea of reality. I am, I realize fully, one of the lucky ones. I have help. Professional help. I have insurance, so even though copays and deductibles add up, I can afford to get absolutely fantastic help. It has saved my life. I am also very aware of that. I have some wonderful family members that support me. But again I stress, I am one of the lucky ones. Not everyone has that. There is nothing about my mental status you could question that I don't question each and every day. But I only do so because I am aware and being treated and am making every effort to make sure that treatment works. Not everyone has that, or even has the opportunity to become aware of that. If you truly want to help people you seriously believe are deluded, you may want to consider that.
 
I agree with 154. The work being done at the JREF to expose the "undesirables" in the Bigfoot field is outstanding. I define undesirables as hoaxers, profiteers, and the inept scientific processes. The field is full of them. As WOO as you all may think it is, there are honest people in this field simply out looking for answers. That you do not believe my sighting or do not condone the attempts at investigating the phenomenon does not bother me or deter me. You do not know me, pay my bills or live my life. None of you deal with the personal and professional problems going public about my encounter has caused me. I realize I will not change your minds on the topic and that is not why I am here. You should also be reminded that you will not change my mind and that I am a honest person with no agenda except looking for answers.
 
kitikaze, based on my limited attention here, my experience with Vortigern and Parcher only makes me respect you and your approach more. Could you remind me and direct me to your exchange with MM a year or two ago?

It's unfortunate that you've found your experience with skeptical analysis and critical thinking on a skeptic message board so unpleasant.

You may wish to consider, in the future, the potential consequences of posting your opinion that an undiscovered primate, for which there is not a shred of hard evidence, is absolutely, unquestionably real, on a skeptic message board.

I further recommend some reading on the subject of the scientific method and the process of critical thought. Sagan's Demon-Haunted World is a good start. Otherwise you're likely to go through life accepting any ludicrous claim that comes your way, such as that unknown phenomena beyond the workings of the natural world are responsible for bovine decomposition.
 
I think you have to be a glutton for punishment to claim you saw a bigfoot on the JREF. This place is founded on scoffing. We assume that you must be lying or "sleep hallucinating" :rolleyes: because we start with the premise that bigfoot does not exist. We can then scoff at your claim and dismiss it, because of course you CAN'T be telling the truth, unless you dreamt it.

Good luck with that. ;)

Note that the :rolleyes: icon is the very symbol of scoffery. This is called irony. Also, before you dismiss "sleep hallucinating" (sic) as a probable or likely explanation of WGBH, 154 and sugarb's claims, you may wish to read up on the subjects of hypnagogia, hallucination and confabulation. These are known, studied and documented phenomena of the human mind, the application of which as an explanation is consistent with the details of each of their sightings. Bigfoot, on the other hand, is not a known, studied or documented animal.
 
Note that the :rolleyes: icon is the very symbol of scoffery. This is called irony. Also, before you dismiss "sleep hallucinating" (sic) as a probable or likely explanation of WGBH, 154 and sugarb's claims, you may wish to read up on the subjects of hypnagogia, hallucination and confabulation. These are known, studied and documented phenomena of the human mind, the application of which as an explanation is consistent with the details of each of their sightings. Bigfoot, on the other hand, is not a known, studied or documented animal.

I scoff when warranted, and not just at woo. I know 1st hand how hallucinations can blend with reality, but somehow I doubt this explains a substantial amount of BF sightings. At least for those who must have been hallucinating for extended periods to explain what they saw. Since you seem to be an expert on hypnagogia, hallucination and confabulation, what percentage of the 100,000+ sightings over the centuries were imagined? Personally, I think it's negligible. IMO the vast majority of sightings are either hoaxing/lying or misidentification. Hallucinations seem like a convenient way to dismiss "clear and extended" sightings without outright calling someone a liar. JMHO.
 
Note that the :rolleyes: icon is the very symbol of scoffery. This is called irony. Also, before you dismiss "sleep hallucinating" (sic) as a probable or likely explanation of WGBH, 154 and sugarb's claims, you may wish to read up on the subjects of hypnagogia, hallucination and confabulation. These are known, studied and documented phenomena of the human mind, the application of which as an explanation is consistent with the details of each of their sightings. Bigfoot, on the other hand, is not a known, studied or documented animal.

Right. I think "bigfoot" is studied, though, based on things I have read. It seems that there are quite a few people who really do devote a big part of their lives to "bigfoot", including spending a lot of money on "expeditions".

The most interesting thread on the other forum to me was the one about hallucinating while driving. I know that happens. People, especially driving long distances, can do weird things. I've been a passenger in a car before where the driver fell asleep...and didn't even realize he had fallen asleep. That was even a very short drive, maybe a half hour! Clearly it is a very serious issue, and I have been pleased to see, in newer cars, the instrument panels being moved to the middle instead of being right in front of the driver's eyes. It seems reasonable to me that could very well make a difference in safer driving, and is much easier on the eyes during night driving...in my opinion, anyway.
 
WGBH said:
You should also be reminded that you will not change my mind and that I am a honest person with no agenda except looking for answers.

I accept that you're an honest person looking for answers. However, your assertion "you will not change my mind" is telling. You've made your decision that bigfoot exists; you saw one, and that's the end of the discussion for you, as far as finding a reasonable explanation for what you experienced. This is the very antithesis of skepticism.

Please be aware that I came to these forums a bigfoot believer, as did Kitikaze and others. Our open-mindedness to the data and evidence (or lack thereof) have convinced us otherwise. We did not come here with an a priori opinion, asserting that "you will not change my mind!"; instead, we investigated the facts and made our conclusions based on those facts.

You may be, and probably are as far as I know, "an honest person with no agenda looking for answers". But whether you realize it or not, your mind is closed to answers that do not fit your preconceived conclusions -- namely that bigfoot is a real, extant animal somehow obtaining 8000+ calories a day in winter without being unambiguously photographed, captured, or leaving scat or bones.

It may be "honest" thinking, but it's magical, uncritical thinking that operates under fixed and inflexible preconceptions.
 
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I scoff when warranted, and not just at woo. I know 1st hand how hallucinations can blend with reality, but somehow I doubt this explains a substantial amount of BF sightings. At least for those who must have been hallucinating for extended periods to explain what they saw. Since you seem to be an expert on hypnagogia, hallucination and confabulation, what percentage of the 100,000+ sightings over the centuries were imagined? Personally, I think it's negligible. IMO the vast majority of sightings are either hoaxing/lying or misidentification. Hallucinations seem like a convenient way to dismiss "clear and extended" sightings without outright calling someone a liar. JMHO.

I agree with almost all of this, except that I'm not so certain as you are that the percentage of BF sightings explained by hallucination is "negligible." What may I ask is your basis for this determination?

Meanwhile, please note that I'm not applying the likely explanation of hypnagogic hallucination to a majority of sightings. I'm applying it to those specific sightings in which the details are consistent with such an explanation, such as sugarb's and WGBH's.
 
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