Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

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I find the systematic defaunation of areas settled by caucasians over the last few centuries as more damning than the lack of a decent photo from the current century. Just look at what we did to grizzlies, for example.

Grizzlies are big, smart, ferocious, hard to kill, live in the most remote and rugged areas, and occur at low density. Think of what it means to have killed them off by 1922 in California, but to have never killed (or provided proof of such a claim) a single bigfoot in all of that time.
 
Wow! You folks, in general, are so POLITE, friendly, fun and sooo smart! NOT. Go ahead and keep stroking your "egos". Hmmm...Pushing 4,800 posts and you haven't learned a thing. You're not worth my time.
 
I find the systematic defaunation of areas settled by caucasians over the last few centuries as more damning than the lack of a decent photo from the current century. Just look at what we did to grizzlies, for example.

+1

It took a heck of a lot of effort to reintroduce deer, elk, & turkeys, etc to my home state of KY. I've never heard of any wildlife agency restocking bigfoots, tho.
 
Wow! You folks, in general, are so POLITE, friendly, fun and sooo smart! NOT. Go ahead and keep stroking your "egos". Hmmm...Pushing 4,800 posts and you haven't learned a thing. You're not worth my time.

What's your time worth?
 
I wonder why he put scare quotes around "egos"? :confused:

It means ours aren't even in the ballpark compared to someone who takes off in a huff like that if we can't learn from his emminence about his fifteen foot hominid.

Yea, shrike - the mountain lions and wolves too. Or dinky little passenger pigeons.
 
I find the systematic defaunation of areas settled by caucasians over the last few centuries as more damning than the lack of a decent photo from the current century. Just look at what we did to grizzlies, for example.

Grizzlies are big, smart, ferocious, hard to kill, live in the most remote and rugged areas, and occur at low density. Think of what it means to have killed them off by 1922 in California, but to have never killed (or provided proof of such a claim) a single bigfoot in all of that time.

yeah, I see your guns vs grizzlies and raise you sharp sticks vs mammoths etc.
 
Wow! You folks, in general, are so POLITE, friendly, fun and sooo smart! NOT. Go ahead and keep stroking your "egos". Hmmm...Pushing 4,800 posts and you haven't learned a thing. You're not worth my time.
Since irony can also be stupid, I'll say the stupidest part of that is you accusing us of not having learned a thing. WOW! That's thick headed-ness defined. To quote Ace Ventura, "Denial can be an ugly thing."

On the contrary, I'd be willing to consider a serious money wager that says we've learned a THOUSAND things about the non-existence of Bigfoot for every ONE thing bleevers will claim to have learned regarding its pro-existence.

And heck, let's ask it here and now. What have bleevers OR ANYONE ELSE learned about Bigfoot that we didn't 'know' 40 years ago? And I mean truths, not anecdotes or hopes or dreams or wishful thinking. MUST...be...reality...based.

<crickets>
 
Since irony can also be stupid, I'll say the stupidest part of that is you accusing us of not having learned a thing. WOW! That's thick headed-ness defined. To quote Ace Ventura, "Denial can be an ugly thing."

On the contrary, I'd be willing to consider a serious money wager that says we've learned a THOUSAND things about the non-existence of Bigfoot for every ONE thing bleevers will claim to have learned regarding its pro-existence.

And heck, let's ask it here and now. What have bleevers OR ANYONE ELSE learned about Bigfoot that we didn't 'know' 40 years ago? And I mean truths, not anecdotes or hopes or dreams or wishful thinking. MUST...be...reality...based.

<crickets>

Poor Jon

It is hard to wrestle with logic, reality and facts... and really hard to have the same brought up to you time and time again. It has to be frustrating ! Sorry he does not want to entertain us anymore ?

Yes.. this forum is a great learning experience. I certainly have enjoyed the comments and thoughtful insight.
 
Progress then. Some extremely high proportion of those millions of visitors annually also have cameras, eager to snap photos of wildlife. If there are 6.7 million visitors a year, then in the last 50 years it is hundreds of millions that have visited designated wilderness areas with cameras since the PGF was filmed - and not one picture of a bigfoot.

For non-wilderness areas, it is in the high billions. This is in contrast to the 'footers always pretending there are vast areas of the U.S. that nobody ever sees.

The most important people who do though are the professional wildlife enumerators working for fish and game departments in every state. Do you know how they count the bears, sheep, deer, caribou, and etc.?



Sure. Not sure where "here" is, but I think you mentioned the Carolinas at present. I did interview for a job at Appalachian State University, and they took me around to what they considered remote. It was beautiful.


Yes, I can see how it looks when you think of it that way. I was looking at the Great Smokey Mountain Park since it is the most visited in the United States. With such high traffic, and the definition of "remote" being a relative thing depending on your perspective, I wanted to get a basic idea for how remote or crowded the area really was.

According to what I read, the park encompasses 520,976 acres with 10 million visitors per year. On any given day of the year you could have an average of about 27,000 people in the park. So if you use basic division that comes to about 0.05 people per acre if they were evenly dispersed throughout the park. It's ridiculous to think of a person in terms of a unit such as 0.05 so in essence you would end up with roughly one person per 20 acres on any given day.

Since the visitors aren't evenly dispersed and there are only 1108 camp sites and about 800 miles of trails in the park it seems logical that the vast majority of the visitors will be located in those areas. So how much area of the park would remain visitor free if you think of it in that way?

I would imagine wildlife enumerators would use similar statistical methods that I use in epidemiology to figure out what the population of any given species, or species diversity happens to be in any given area. I'm not familiar enough with what they do to say with any certainty.
 
According to what I read, the park encompasses 520,976 acres with 10 million visitors per year. On any given day of the year you could have an average of about 27,000 people in the park. So if you use basic division that comes to about 0.05 people per acre if they were evenly dispersed throughout the park. It's ridiculous to think of a person in terms of a unit such as 0.05 so in essence you would end up with roughly one person per 20 acres on any given day.

Since the visitors aren't evenly dispersed and there are only 1108 camp sites and about 800 miles of trails in the park it seems logical that the vast majority of the visitors will be located in those areas. So how much area of the park would remain visitor free if you think of it in that way?

Now I'm proud of you. Because you've started to anchor this in concrete terms. There are some important adjustments to make now.

The vast majority of visitors are in the summer season. So the visitors per acre is more like three times as high during that season, and you are down to maybe five to seven acres per person or something like that. But the people are not stationary. They are driving, hiking, biking, rafting, etc. for miles.

Game do not travel randomly. They use trails and terrain the same way that people do. Three people can do a game drive covering hundreds of acres. It sounds like a lot - a hundred acres per person, wow. But the fact you are moving and that game travels along corridors means it isn't very much land at all. And you can SEE great distances, so positioning yourself on a vantage point while others are driving means your effective coverage is way greater.

Animals follow regular patterns too. Any boob knows that they move in the wee hours. They get up, pee, go get a drink, feed, lie down, feed, get a drink, and go to bed. They move along regular corridors between those watering, feeding, and bedding areas so a person with half a brain can just wait at the right spot, and catch them moving between regular daily activities.

These bigfoot hunters demonstrate they don't know a thing about game when they open their mouths because all of this basic stuff is completely missing from their discussions. That means they are either stupid or they are con-men. Neither is a category you want to belong to.

I would imagine wildlife enumerators would use similar statistical methods that I use in epidemiology to figure out what the population of any given species, or species diversity happens to be in any given area. I'm not familiar enough with what they do to say with any certainty.

That's why I asked. Because you don't know, and have never thought about it. Knowing how they do this makes nonsense out of most of the eary stuff you posted.

They have done experiments for over half a century on things like supercub counts. If you have a known number of elk in a fenced area then it is easy to determine what the relationship is between how many you see from the air according to every conceivable variable - airspeed, amount of cover, weather, altitude, etc. They have been publishing this stuff in professional wildlife journals since the 1930's and computer programs are sold to wildlife agencies with all of this automated. All they need is an employee in the back seat of a supercub.

They also do grid searches for poop piles. Same thing there - the relationship between known animal counts and poop piles is well documented and they merely apply that known relation. Since there has never been a single bigfoot poop pile discovered, none of these wildlife enumerators see them when counting sheep poop, moose poop, mule deer poop etc. every single year they are doing counts.

All of that acreage you thought was non-observed is covered by professional wildlife enumerators looking for big game. If the professionals that are being paid to count game numbers that are critical to determine hunting quotas do not see bigfeets while they are looking for all these other game animals then they simply aren't there.
 
I would imagine wildlife enumerators would use similar statistical methods that I use in epidemiology to figure out what the population of any given species, or species diversity happens to be in any given area. I'm not familiar enough with what they do to say with any certainty.

Wildlife enumerators enumerate real animals, not imaginary hominids.
 
All of that acreage you thought was non-observed is covered by professional wildlife enumerators looking for big game. If the professionals that are being paid to count game numbers that are critical to determine hunting quotas do not see bigfeets while they are looking for all these other game animals then they simply aren't there.

Yes, there is a science to it.
This brings up another issue, which is the probability issue. To a man/woman, footers have no sense of what probability is about, and how it applies to this "bigfoot" idea. This is perhaps the single distinguishing characteristic between people with a scientific mind, and people with a superstitious mind.

The latter are perfectly happy to believe that an entire species (or several species!!) of huge animal and its fossils can evade detection for 400 years. The former understand the exceedingly overwhelmingly entirely completely tiny probability that this could happen, given the nature of North America and its inhabitants during that time.
 
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Yes, there is a science to it.
This brings up another issue, which is the probability issue. To a man/woman, footers have no sense of what probability is about, and how it applies to this "bigfoot" idea. This is perhaps the single distinguishing characteristic between people with a scientific mind, and people with a superstitious mind.

The latter are perfectly happy to believe that an entire species (or several species!!) of huge animal and its fossils can evade detection for 400 years. The former understand the exceedingly overwhelmingly entirely completely tiny probability that this could happen, given the nature of North America and its inhabitants during that time.

I see from Jodie's posts that the thinking starts with the existence of bigfoot, and re-arranges the data to maximize the probability, which is the opposite of what statisticians do. She is starting to overcome that now.

So instead of looking at a map of population distribution, roads, and etc., all the people in the world are placed shoulder-to-shoulder in Los Angeles. The rest of the world is a giant uninhabited, unobserved wilderness. Presto: not only bigfoot, but all the dinosaurs are out there too.

I think one of the major reasons they do those Finding Bigfoot shows at night is because doing them in the daytime makes it pretty obvious they are surrounded by subdivisions, roads, power plants, etc. with heavy daytime traffic and people moving about. All their shots of wooded areas in daytime or from the air are heavily edited to conceal the urban features: arrange the data to make the probability of undiscovered things higher.
 
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Re: Great Smokies. Forget the acreage and the visitation. Consider the history instead.

Just working from the end of the Wisconsin glaciation, you have a few thousand years of native folks living there. I'm not sure if there were multiple hand changes over that time (seems likely), but it at least ended up in the hands of the Cherokee. Other than a legendary slant-eyed giant who speaks and marries young maidens, the Cherokees provided no tangible evidence of a "bigfoot" from their time in the Smokies.

Enter the white settlers by the mid-19th Century. After booting out the Cherokee, the white folks shot a bunch of animals and logged the forests. Elk? gone. Wolves? gone. Cougars? gone. It doesn't matter if there are 10 million visitors each year or 10. Humans hunted out the big game. If a bear's home range is 500 square miles, then one dude's musket ball can take care of "all" the bears over an area of 500 square miles.

Yes, a plane can go down in the Cacscades or on the Olympic Peninsula and it might take decades to be found. Likewise a bigfoot that doesn't want to be found could skulk around hermit-like and avoid the eyes of birders, surveyors, morel-hunters, etc. But entire populations of bigfoots cannot just hide all the time. Those bigfoots would have to move around, to forage, to give birth, to squabble over territories, etc.

A population of roughly black-bear sized mammals could not occur in temperate North America without having been multiple times confirmed via carcass.
 
Since the visitors aren't evenly dispersed and there are only 1108 camp sites and about 800 miles of trails in the park it seems logical that the vast majority of the visitors will be located in those areas. So how much area of the park would remain visitor free if you think of it in that way?

I would imagine wildlife enumerators would use similar statistical methods that I use in epidemiology to figure out what the population of any given species, or species diversity happens to be in any given area. I'm not familiar enough with what they do to say with any certainty.

With all of the sightings, footprints and hair of bigfoot that has been collected, it would be seemingly impossible for there not to have been a body or some other bonafide evidence of bigfoot's existence. In fact I'm surpised there has never been bigfoot roadkill. The complete lack of evidence indicates to me that the entire thing is a myth.
 
Just working from the end of the Wisconsin glaciation, you have a few thousand years of native folks living there.

These populations were also far higher than people realize too. The greatest population catastrophe in human history was the successive waves of epidemics, de-populating the country ahead of the European settlement.

Hard to estimate, but some have proposed figures as high as a hundred million for North America. That is the very highest end, and it could be well less than half that. But regardless there weren't regions for an undiscovered primate to roam undetected even before the Europeans arrived, let alone now.
 
Of course... on the other hand there was that amazing discovery of the Blackfeet Indian Tribe hiding in a valley behind a concealed waterfall cave a few years back. That was an interesting documentary, I think ?

Oh.. wait.. maybe that was a movie !
 
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