Biden for President?

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tyr_13 said:
Yes.

Seriously, if you have to chose between two rapists, pick the one who doesn't brag about it and is not a serial rapist.

Likewise, if you have to choose between two murderers, pick the one who only killed one and not the serial killer who brags he'll kill again.

Of course it isn't good but it is the only rational choice if forced to make it.

Then, this shouldn't need to be said, fight like hell to fix the system that created that tragic travesty in the first place.
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Why should sexual assault be a deal breaker in choosing a president?
 
Sideroxylon said:
Why should sexual assault be a deal breaker in choosing a president?
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And I wonder how far back historically it has gone on. We all recall stories about Kennedy or Kennedy's. But certainly it began prior to that?
 
wasapi said:
And I wonder how far back historically it has gone on. We all recall stories about Kennedy or Kennedy's. But certainly it began prior to that?
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Certainly not the time or place to be drawing any Weinstein lines in the sand for politics. The presidency is a game for alpha males.
 
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Sideroxylon said:
Why should sexual assault be a deal breaker in choosing a president?
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Because rape is bad, should have consequences including losing trust, electing a rapist signals rape is less important than other factors, and a whole host of other reasons.

But it appears you aren't actually asking in good faith and are attempting to make an argument without stating it. What is it?

I already touched on a couple of factors in this case why simply disqualifying an accused rapist from the Democratic nomination isn't something to just do automatically. Who would even do it? I could expand on those points if you actually wanted, which I don't get the impression you do.

If you think the nomination should just be passed to Bernie, just come out and say so. Please explain how that would actually happen. I've put out how I'd remove the nomination from Biden; a brokered convention. As a practical matter Biden might have to agree to step down, and I'd expect enough pressure from the other people who ran and that dastardly Bernie nomination stealing DNC would force that, if they had the courage to do it.

If you're just being bitter and throwing shade to feel superior to those trying to make the best of a horrid situation, please just say so. It's not a completely unjustified reaction to having to choose between two accused rapists, even if every other factor, including which one would appoint judges and run a justice system that would take rape allegation seriously if sexual assault is one's only factor to consider, doesn't register as important.
 
Sideroxylon said:
I’m just handing out shovels.
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It's not helping, and may in fact be harming the situation.

I would agree with a previous poster. If you want the nomination to be passed to Bernie, say so, and explain how it would work.
 
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It just looks a tiny bit hypocritical to some people if after all the Me Too, Believe the Victim, Kavanaugh, Pussy Grabbing thing that when it's the home team captain all of a sudden the Democrats and their press are concerned about evidence, and doubt the accusation. The argument around Kavanaugh did seem to be that an accusation of this sort should have been enough to stop him getting the Supreme Court job. A lot of nasty things got said about Republicans over approving Kavanaugh and what it said about their views on women.

I don't doubt that there are rationalizations that mean this case is entirely different.
 
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Frankly, the timing of her accusation infuriates me. She could have come out with this before Biden had over half the delegates already committed. It makes me suspect a political dirty trick. A clever one, too, because it makes Democrats look like hypocrites. But still a dirty trick, from someone who, according to her own words, has lots of Russian friends that have influenced her in the past to write cringe-worthy love letters to Putin, prattling on about how he's "intoxicating to American women" because he's such a mensch.
 
Puppycow said:
Frankly, the timing of her accusation infuriates me. She could have come out with this before Biden had over half the delegates already committed. It makes me suspect a political dirty trick. A clever one, too, because it makes Democrats look like hypocrites. But still a dirty trick, from someone who, according to her own words, has lots of Russian friends that have influenced her in the past to write cringe-worthy love letters to Putin, prattling on about how he's "intoxicating to American women" because he's such a mensch.
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And it's a pity the Kavanaugh accusation didn't come out earlier. That's just how it goes. It's not like you can point to it and say "therefore it's false!", it could be that she wasn't wild keen to come out with this, and only did when he looked set to win. Or....



It is a little bit funny Biden getting accused, isn't it?
 
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shuttlt said:
It just looks a tiny bit hypocritical to some people if after all the Me Too, Believe the Victim, Kavanaugh, Pussy Grabbing thing that when it's the home team captain all of a sudden the Democrats and their press are concerned about evidence, and doubt the accusation. The argument around Kavanaugh did seem to be that an accusation of this sort should have been enough to stop him getting the Supreme Court job. A lot of nasty things got said about Republicans over approving Kavanaugh and what it said about their views on women.

I don't doubt that there are rationalizations that mean this case is entirely different.
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There is quite a lot wrong balled up in your post. To unpack some: At no point have Democrats or the MeToo movement ever said or implied that an accusation should always be treated as fact. Evidence is always important, and definitely was during the Kavanaugh hearings. In fact, the refusal to interview pertinent witnesses and ridiculously short time allowed for investigating to find any evidence was what caused the nasty things said about Republicans.

That this case is entirely different does not mean explanations to those determined not to see the vast differences are "rationalizations".
 
Dr. Keith said:
That's the real key: how does he respond.

I'll go out on a limb and say that my primary objection to Kavenaugh was that his response was childish and disrespectful and showed a distinct lack of clear thought. It was not the sort of response one expects of a Federal Judge. IIRC, my secondary objection was based on his record as a judge and the fact that most other federal judges did not think he was fit for the position.

To me, the accusations were unimportant. Because he was a teen at the time and I did tons of stupid stuff as a teen, some criminal stuff.

If he had responded by saying he has no recollection of the party or the interaction and left it there he would have come off much better. To me at least. Trump obviously wanted a stronger denial and maybe that was the audience he was playing to.

At this point there is no way to know the truth. It is possible that neither Reade nor Biden even know the truth. What is possible is to control the reaction.

I'm not an expert in this field, just as I am not an expert in song writing, but I know a good song mostly by the audience.
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The difference is that Kavanaugh had to sit for Senate approval, so there was a mechanism to make him face prolonged questioning on the matter. Kavanaugh's moments of entitled rage only came after fairly brutal scrutiny that he couldn't really escape from.

Biden has an option that Kavanaugh did not, he can just keep his head down and not address the scandal. At least, he can do this for a while. He might have the ability to stall long enough that replacing him as the candidate is no longer an option.

The question becomes, will the party do anything about it? Biden's best interests are clear. He doesn't benefit from dropping out. Poor odds in the general is better than being replaced now and having no chance of becoming president. The party might find that their odds are better with a non-rape candidate, so there could be conflict here.

Of course, even if he successfully cans this thing up and prevents attacks from his own party, Trump is going to talk about it nonstop in the general. I doubt rape-averse voters are going to prefer Trump, but dragging Biden through the mud (perhaps correctly) as a creepy old rapist could certainly demoralize voters and depress turnout.

Time to put the "lesser of two evils" line to the test. Biden is only credibly accused of one sexual assault, so he's less evil. Please vote blue.
 
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wareyin said:
There is quite a lot wrong balled up in your post. To unpack some: At no point have Democrats or the MeToo movement ever said or implied that an accusation should always be treated as fact. Evidence is always important, and definitely was during the Kavanaugh hearings. In fact, the refusal to interview pertinent witnesses and ridiculously short time allowed for investigating to find any evidence was what caused the nasty things said about Republicans.
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Some people may remember things differently and feel that at some times there is a much greater willingness to believe and be outraged than at other times. I don't intend to have the debate again, but it's pretty clear that some people are going to take the view that the Democratic establishment are massive self serving hypocrites. Whether that's enough people to matter we will have to wait and see. At the very least, we can perhaps empathise with people who take this view? Not you, wareyin, obviously... but maybe other people.

wareyin said:
That this case is entirely different does not mean explanations to those determined not to see the vast differences are "rationalizations".
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I'm not arguing that convenient rationalizations can't be convincing to people who want to be convinced by them. It is always easier to be convinced of things that it is convenient to believe.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The difference is that Kavanaugh had to sit for Senate approval, so there was a mechanism to make him face prolonged questioning on the matter. Kavanaugh's moments of entitled rage only came after fairly brutal scrutiny that he couldn't really escape from.

Biden has an option that Kavanaugh did not, he can just keep his head down and not address the scandal. At least, he can do this for a while. He might have the ability to stall long enough that replacing him as the candidate is no longer an option.

Of course, even if he successfully cans this thing up and prevents attacks from his own party, Trump is going to talk about it nonstop in the general. I doubt rape-averse voters are going to prefer Trump, but dragging Biden through the mud (perhaps correctly) as a creepy old rapist could certainly demoralize voters and depress turnout.
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I agree that that is the cold hard morality free calculus of it. From where I sit, the #MeToo #BelieveWomen thing looked like it was based on some kind of moral claim that everybody got very emotional and outraged about. It just looks like people were only emotional and outraged about it when the target wasn't somebody it was convenient to protect.

There is something different about when the side taking the high serious moral ground gets accused. It's like when a televangelist would get caught with gay prostitutes back in the day. When the side of #BelieveWomen gets accused it's asymmetrically funny. We always used to appreciate the joke when it was the televangelists.
 
Puppycow said:
Frankly, the timing of her accusation infuriates me. She could have come out with this before Biden had over half the delegates already committed.
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From what I've heard, she tried to, but nobody was listening.

It makes me suspect a political dirty trick. A clever one, too, because it makes Democrats look like hypocrites.
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It's easy to make Democrats look like hypocrites when they are.
 
Puppycow said:
Frankly, the timing of her accusation infuriates me. She could have come out with this before Biden had over half the delegates already committed. It makes me suspect a political dirty trick. A clever one, too, because it makes Democrats look like hypocrites. But still a dirty trick, from someone who, according to her own words, has lots of Russian friends that have influenced her in the past to write cringe-worthy love letters to Putin, prattling on about how he's "intoxicating to American women" because he's such a mensch.
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I mean, people said the exact same thing about Kavanaugh. The timing of Ford's accusation had some pretty severe political implications, and many wanted to impugn her motives based on this.

Reade made her accusation a good while ago, but didn't gain much traction. Mainstream news didn't want to touch it, and the TimesUp campaign sent her on a wild goose chase before telling her they wouldn't help her. It's hard to say whether these were intentional efforts to suppress the story, or just that Reade was waffling on whether she wanted to commit to going all the way. Keep in mind, she faces a lot of personal risk and public attention, so some equivocating is to be expected.

Perhaps we should be asking why mainstream press didn't want to cover it. The Intercept is doing good work here by dragging this into daylight. It would have happened sooner, when it was easier to dump Biden, if Reade hadn't encountered so many hurdles.
 
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