Biden for President?

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This is true.



So they were your words after all.

Nope. I didn't use them; you did:

If you want him to tell off all the "gun nuts" like that, well, I guess that's a strategy he can follow. We will see how successful this tactic is.
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I have the ability to hold many thoughts in my head at once.

No doubt, but that does not change the fact that you changed it from "it does make me wonder what Dr. Lee et. al. have to say" to "how their opinions are taken "by those who have argued that we should take them seriously".


I do wonder what Dr. Lee et. al. have to say because I'm interested in how their opinions will be taken by my interlocutors in the other thread.

I've been told for 3 years now, by many posters (including you), how it's so important that we listen to mental health professionals when they speak out about candidates. Well, OK; let's see if you guys listen to your own advice when it applies to a candidate you support.

I will be more than happy to listen to such professionals if, and when, they do speak out. So far, no one has.

For myself, my opinion about professional opinions hasn't changed a jot: they aren't worth anything unless the professional has done an in-person evaluation of the subject. I'm already going to vote for Biden (or even Sanders if it came to it) because just about anyone would be better than Trump. I won't give Dr. Lee, et. al. an iota of credibility if they decide that Biden is "dangerously mentally ill."

That's certainly your perogative.

But they won't. If they say anything about Biden it will be mild and something along the lines of "He might have some problems, but he's not as bad as Trump."

Right...because you think it's all political based on.....reasons.



Yes, and I'm sure the citizens of New York (at least the ones that frequent 5th Avenue) were shaking in their boots when Trump said he could kill someone on 5th Avenue and still not lose support.

It's a really serious thing when Trump does something and not serious at all when Biden does something similar.

Try to at least keep your comparisons somewhere in the same neighborhood. That one wasn't even in the same Zip code.
 
We are discussing Biden and his mental health which is germane to his candidacy. There’s going to be some drift in that topic. I would argue vehemently that it’s not a derail but very much on topic.


Go do it in the Trump thread*


*which I have on ignore.
 
Okay I just, and somehow I am just learning this, found out that Joe Bidens middle name is "Robinette."

I take back everything, this man cannot lead our country with a name like that. I mean "Hussein" is one thing but "Robinette?"

Robinette was his father's middle name and was his mother's maiden name. It was common practice for a child to have the mother's maiden name as a middle name. My father had his mother's maiden name as his middle name.
 
Okay, this is a full-on factual smackdown and I'll cop to it without quibbling about laws passed in 1968.

I had to actually track down a few baby boomers to get a deeper and more salient reply. Here it is:

That's from a bonafide unreconstructed hippie.

As a shameless slacker from Gen X, I'm not really stanning for Boomers here, I just think they generally get a bad rap for what they changed in the Reagan era, as if they didn't exist and influence culture and politics prior thereto.

Thanks. All the whinging about how bad the Boomers are and that they screwed everything up for the next generation is tiresome besides being an easy cop out.
 
Maybe they think that even in his current state he has broader appeal than Sanders, and they'd rather have a "doddering... Biden" in the WH than Donald Trump.

But Dems had many other candidates besides Biden and Sanders. If Dem voters seriously thought Biden had dementia, they could have opted for one of them instead. It wasn't just a choice between those two
 
You don't need to be a trained psychiatrist to know when there's something wrong with a politician's brain. Except when you do. Then you totally need to be a trained psychiatrist. Except when you don't.

Thank you for that word salad. It was delicious.
 
Special pleading in politics, why am I not surprised.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was actually speaking to both participants (equally) in the recent and what I consider to be a total derail of this thread to kindly take it to the Trump Mental Health thread*. Thank you for your attention.


*can't remember the exact name since I have it on ignore. And, yeah, some of it's about Biden but it's more about Trump and if you want I'll say Dr. so-and-so shouldn't declare Trump with NPD without a proper one on one diagnosis. Happy?
 
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was actually speaking to both participants (equally) in the recent and what I consider to be a total derail of this thread to kindly take it to the Trump Mental Health thread*. Thank you for your attention.


*can't remember the exact name since I have it on ignore. And, yeah, some of it's about Biden but it's more about Trump and if you want I'll say Dr. so-and-so shouldn't declare Trump with NPD without a proper one on one diagnosis. Happy?

I'm pretty sure discussions of Biden's mental health are right at home in a thread about Biden's presidential candidacy, and comparisons to other similar cases equally so.
 
Are you kidding? That’s all they have to go on seeing as how they never met him.
And where have they observed him in order to make that diagnosis? Oh yeah...videos.

They have decades of interviews both on film and written, his personal history, his rallies, his interactions with others, and his behavior. So more than just videos.

Yes: A doctor who has personally examined Biden. That’s the opinion that we should be listening to, not the armchair diagnosticians who’ve only seen these guys on TV.

Great! Here ya go:

"Vice President Biden is a healthy, vigorous, 77-year-old male, who is fit to successfully execute the duties of the Presidency, to include those as Chief Executive, Head of State, and Commander in Chief,” Biden’s physician, Dr. Kevin O'Connor, said in a statement. O’Connor served as Biden’s doctor from 2009 to 2017, while he was vice president.

Would you now like to argue that Dr. O'Connor doesn't know the signs of dementia or, perhaps, is a participant in the conspiracy to put Biden in the WH anyway?

Then again, do you take the word of the doctors who personally examined Trump as evidence that he doesn’t have some debilitating mental illness? Seems like you should apply the same standard.

Lessee here...like his personal doctor, Bornstein?
Trump's former personal physician claims that Trump dictated the 2015 letter he wrote praising the then-presidential candidate’s health.

"He dictated that whole letter. I didn't write that letter," Dr. Harold Bornstein told CNN. "I just made it up as I went along."

"His physical strength and stamina are extraordinary,” read the letter, which Bornstein had initially said he wrote himself. “If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency."

Bornstein now says that Trump had dictated the language as the doctor and his wife drove across Central Park.

“[Trump] dictated the letter and I would tell him what he couldn't put in there," he said. "They came to pick up their letter at 4 o'clock or something."

"That's black humor, that letter. That's my sense of humor," Bornstein added. "It's like the movie 'Fargo': It takes the truth and moves it in a different direction."
https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...ys-trump-dictated-letter-claiming-he-would-be

Or maybe Dr. Ronnie Jackson who gave Trump his physical? Jackson is no mental health professional. NPR is a personality disorder, not something checked for during a physical. On the other hand, dementia/Alzheimer's is a physical disease which would be diagnosed by a physician.

Has Trump ever been examined by a psychologist/psychiatrist? Not that I can find. After all, why should he? He's a self-declared 'stable genius'.
 
A lot of younger voters, especially college students, have also been targeted by the GOP for voter suppression - and can't afford to wait in line for 6-8 hours like retired people can, which they'd have to do in states like Michigan, thanks to politicians like Rick "The Flint-Poisoner" Snyder (with a lot of help from Michael Bloomberg).
Theoretically not this year - because of certain voting changes made in Michigan... (Note: I say "Theoretically" only because I don't live in Michigan and therefore cannot verify precisely how the thing I'm talking about was implemented). Younger voters almost certainly had all the voting access they would have needed.
 
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Black voters (who widely support Biden) have also been targeted for voter suppression.

Plus, Biden is beating Sanders by ~20%. A bit much to assume voter suppression is the cause.

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Theoretically not this year - because of certain voting changes made in Michigan... (Note: I say "Theoretically" only because I don't live in Michigan and therefore cannot verify precisely how the thing I'm talking about was implemented). Younger voters almost certainly had all the voting access they would have needed.

Okay, let's get into it. Apologies for the length.

I'm 42 years old and black - My grandfather was born in 1900, in North Carolina. How long do you think he waited to vote? Just so you know, it was decades. *Every* election, I went with him every election to see him vote. It was drilled into me that people waited, marched, and were killed trying to vote, so you do *not* let a 3long line, or a white person harassing you, stop you. And I'll say, straight up, that I've talked to younger black people - college age, that spent 2016 rejecting that message, that, this year, are saying "Oh. Guess I should've listened." But a few things about the elders.

The old black folks especially, lean conservative. I'm not joking when I say Louis Farrakhan is far right socially. And if you think that they know nothing about politics, you're often wrong. Where they live, the ones most likely to organize rides to the polls, who organize voter registration drives, are the ones that host and run the local DNC headquarters, located in the basement of their churches. So first, when Sanders badmouths "the establishment", he's badmouthing them.

Second - now think about it. Do you really think they love Biden, and hate Sanders? Well, some will, because, you know, antisemitism. But most will not trust white people to do the right thing by them, period. And the white people around them have never given them any reason to do so. But they know he's been a Dem for a long time. They know he was standing next to Obama, when Obama was getting things done.

And they don't worry about Anita Hill, because they liked Thomas at first too, until he turned out to hate civil rights. They don't care if he worked with segregationists, because some of them worked for straight-out Klansmen! Many have stories of white people they thought were friends, that they saw murder a black guy for "being uppity", or chanting "******* go home" during integration. Hell, I've got similar stories, and I was born post Civil Rights Movement. And they don't care about the Crime Bill, because "Violence was out of control, something had to be done!".

Biden's a lifelong Dem, who stood with Obama, only to his side and a step or two behind. When Obama told him to work on something with the Senate, he did it. That doesn't mean "trust him", but it stands for something to hope for.

Sanders? As much as this simple argument makes the Bernie Stans howl and rage, they know he's not a Democrat. They know he seriously considered primarying Obama in 2012. For many of them, that's the end of the matter.

I saw a lot - *a lot* - of college-age voters reporting 2-3 hour long lines, and who are new to the political process, who have no clue at all how it works, who saw those lines and said "no way can I stand there for that long" and simply didn't bother. Some of them *couldn't* bother, because they had to go to work or whatever, and I can't really fault anyone in that crowd. It sucks, I get it. But there were also quite a few that just gave up. And that I don't respect, even if I can understand it. My mother stood in line longer than that, back when she was pregnant with me.

But I've got to say, how are you in college and it's your first time at a voting booth? How did their parents not drag them along when they went to vote? Or did they just not vote at all? Someone, or really several people, failed them in this regard. And yes, some of them will lean right at first, but college has a way of getting rid of prejudice against people of other races, or "SJWs", or whatever asinine term they use for "people who have a sense of empathy".
 
They have decades of interviews both on film and written, his personal history, his rallies, his interactions with others, and his behavior. So more than just videos.
By the same token we have decades of the exact same kinds of information about Biden.

What this is coming down to is pretty simple in my view: You have concluded, based on your own observations that Biden isn't mentally ill/poses no danger/his agression towards people is actually a good thing/isn't nearly as bad as Trump/whatever. No problem with me and I agree with you to some extent.
Great! Here ya go:

Would you now like to argue that Dr. O'Connor doesn't know the signs of dementia or, perhaps, is a participant in the conspiracy to put Biden in the WH anyway?
Not at all. If Dr. O'Connor clears him, that's good enough for me.

Are we in agreement that the doctors who actually personally examined Politician X have the best medical information about their patient?

If so, can we further agree, that doctors who have never met Politician X have incomplete information and are not in a position to diagnose Politician X with anything?

Lessee here...like his personal doctor, Bornstein?

https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...ys-trump-dictated-letter-claiming-he-would-be

Or maybe Dr. Ronnie Jackson who gave Trump his physical? Jackson is no mental health professional. NPR is a personality disorder, not something checked for during a physical. On the other hand, dementia/Alzheimer's is a physical disease which would be diagnosed by a physician.
And about a year ago, Dr. Sean Conley and the team of 11 specialists who examined him in 2019. He got a perfect score on a cognitive exam and Dr. Jackson is quoted as saying:
"I've got to know him pretty well. And I had absolutely no concerns about his cognitive ability or his, you know, his neurological function," Jackson told reporters at the time.

So the doctors that have examined both have zero concerns with their cognitive/neurological function. Primary care is in a position to be the first doctors who suspect psychiatric disorders and these have said, "nope."

That's pretty much the end of that debate right?
Has Trump ever been examined by a psychologist/psychiatrist? Not that I can find. After all, why should he? He's a self-declared 'stable genius'.
Has Biden? Not that we know. Does this throw anything into doubt?
 
By the same token we have decades of the exact same kinds of information about Biden.

Exactly! Biden's gaffes, etc. are being presented as something "new"....as dementia because he's old. The claim has been that he's deteriorating before our very eyes. But as I previously, and now you, have pointed out, this is not something new. He's been doing these things for decades. So, unless you want to claim that he's had dementia for decades, it ain't dementia.

What this is coming down to is pretty simple in my view: You have concluded, based on your own observations that Biden isn't mentally ill/poses no danger/his agression towards people is actually a good thing/isn't nearly as bad as Trump/whatever. No problem with me and I agree with you to some extent.
Not at all. If Dr. O'Connor clears him, that's good enough for me.

No, no, no. The claim/implication by Trump, some of his supporters, and some Sanders supporters has never been that Biden is mentally ill; it's that he has dementia. Dementia is a physical brain condition, not a mental illness.
Nor did I ever say his 'aggression towards people' is a 'good thing'. Not even close.


Are we in agreement that the doctors who actually personally examined Politician X have the best medical information about their patient?

Yes.

If so, can we further agree, that doctors who have never met Politician X have incomplete information and are not in a position to diagnose Politician X with anything?

Not necessarily. Doctors can, and do, diagnose patients without ever meeting them. They can look at test results, x-rays, etc. and diagnose from those.

And about a year ago, Dr. Sean Conley and the team of 11 specialists who examined him in 2019. He got a perfect score on a cognitive exam and Dr. Jackson is quoted as saying:

So the doctors that have examined both have zero concerns with their cognitive/neurological function. Primary care is in a position to be the first doctors who suspect psychiatric disorders and these have said, "nope."

As I have said before, and repeat yet again, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not a medical or neurological condition. It cannot be diagnosed with a physical exam nor with a cognitive exam. It is a psychological personality disorder. I really don't know how much clearer I can say it. So Trump's doctors have not said "nope" to his having a psychological disorder. They were only concerned with his physical health.

That's pretty much the end of that debate right?

Apparently from what you wrote above, you are still not understanding the difference between a physical brain condition (dementia) vs a psychological condition (NPD).

Has Biden? Not that we know. Does this throw anything into doubt?

Has Biden? Yes. His latest exam showed no neurological problems...as in dementia/Alzheimer's. MRI's can detect loss of brain matter associated with dementia/Alzheimer's. No medical test can detect a personality disorder.
 
Exactly! Biden's gaffes, etc. are being presented as something "new"....as dementia because he's old. The claim has been that he's deteriorating before our very eyes. But as I previously, and now you, have pointed out, this is not something new. He's been doing these things for decades. So, unless you want to claim that he's had dementia for decades, it ain't dementia.
Right. He's been inappropriately touching women for years now, for example. It may not be dementia or a mental illness, but it sure isn't right either, now is it? This is what I'm talking about. The label you put on the behavior is irrelevant; it's the behavior itself that we should be concerned with.

<snip to skip over some Trump-centric things>

Has Biden? Yes.
Biden has not seen a psychiatrist/psychologist, that we know of.
His latest exam
Which was done by a Family Medicine doctor
showed no neurological problems...as in dementia/Alzheimer's. MRI's can detect loss of brain matter associated with dementia/Alzheimer's. No medical test can detect a personality disorder.
He didn't have an MRI done. He had a CT angiogram in 2014, but that only looks for problems like the aneurysm he previously had. Presumably they did the same kind of cognitive test that was done on Trump and found no issues worth working up further -but that isn't in the actual doctor's report.

But let's go back to something more fundamental. Agression towards others, inappropriate touching of women, apparent confusion . . . those aren't good things in a President, right? Why aren't you -and let's try to leave Trump out of it for a moment- a little bit alarmed at those things?
 
I saw a lot - *a lot* - of college-age voters reporting 2-3 hour long lines, and who are new to the political process, who have no clue at all how it works, who saw those lines and said "no way can I stand there for that long" and simply didn't bother. Some of them *couldn't* bother, because they had to go to work or whatever, and I can't really fault anyone in that crowd. It sucks, I get it. But there were also quite a few that just gave up. And that I don't respect, even if I can understand it. My mother stood in line longer than that, back when she was pregnant with me.
Yeah, thing is - in Michigan this year, they opened up absentee ballots to individuals of all ages and removed any disability or travel requirements. As I mentioned previously, I don't know how specifically this was implemented; whether, for example, this change was widely publicized and clearly known to the public or quietly announced in places most people just gloss over. Similarly I don't know what sort of wait or inconvenience would have been necessary to drop off said ballots. But I do know that in my particular state there is zero line, plentiful drop off points, and zero wait (barring parking issues). And I suspect that is the most probable case in Michigan as well.
 
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Welcome to human culture, visiting robot from Vulcan.

Are you saying that every country who has a prime minister or president who doesn't threaten people with physical violence for saying something they don't like is populated by robots? Does that include the United States prior to 2016?
 
Whether it's a 'good' thing or not wasn't the question asked. This was:



Was it a wise thing? Maybe not, although I think some would interpret it as Biden standing up to the guy who was in his face and insisting Biden had said something he had not. The original question was just another attempt to promote the 'dementia' nonsense.

I was addressing your downplaying of the threat, as if the salient question were whether or not Biden could actually take the guy.
 
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