Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
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Sanders.
Cont: Biden for President? Pt 3
- Thread starter Gulliver Foyle
- Start date
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
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Seriously don't know where you get this unless you think that black people that aren't African American aren't actually black, or aren't black enough. You do know that there are a lot of black people that live in the UK, Europe, the Pacific countries, and even Central Asia none of whom are African Americans?
Totally incorrect, I'm trying to point out two things to people. First that not all black people are African Americans, not even all of those that live in the US. Mostly this comes from the comment that Emmanuel Acho makes in the video below at that 50-second mark where he says, "I have to address something y'all 'cause so many have asked. 'do I say black people or African American?' and the simple and shortest answer is black because it's not only most accurate it's also least offense. Keep in mind not all black people in America are African. There are Jamaicans there are Cubans but, also there's some black people that don't identify as African because that heritage got stripped from them during slavery."
Now that is a black man addressing that question and specifically pointing out that Jamaicans generally don't identify as African Americans, but rather as Jamaicans. Now Kamala might do so, I don't know, and if she specifically has stated it, then fine that's her choice and should she call herself an African American I won't argue with her. However, if she hasn't then as a Jamaican and Indian it would seem that addressing her as a Black Woman is the better option. This is not an attempt to belittle her or to "make a liar out of her" but rather to address her ethnicity in what we're told is the better and less offensive way.
Secondly, I'm also trying to point out that both Kalama and Obama are first-generation black Americans. This is something that I find interesting, that the first Black President and the first Black Vice President have black ancestry that comes from recent migration to the US rather than from those that were brought there as slaves in the 1800's.
It makes me wonder whether white people are more comfortable voting and electing people who don't have that ancestry. Again this isn't a criticism of either Obama or Kamala, but a query as to the racism in the US and if it is less towards those blacks that are recently arrived as to those who have had their roots in America for many generations.
You missed my point, it was never about whether Kamala had ancestors who were slaves, I am well aware that she did, but rather whether the distance, i.e. "her ancestors weren't slaves to our ancestors" has an effect on the way that white people view her, meaning are they are more accepting of her as a black woman than they would be a black woman who's ancestry was in the US.
Now I am totally okay with being proven wrong here, and my American wife tells me that racists don't see ancestry, just skin colour, and as she is Hispanic and also had experience of such, I am happy to accept that those that are openly racist would indeed just see skin colour. However, I am more interested in those that don't actually believe that they are racist, and how differently they react towards a black person that is a recent immigrant or born to one, and those blacks who have been oppressed in the country for generations.
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Venom
Philosopher
This isn't a "left" thing, but it's brought up by observers who happen to be left and right. It's a technicality that some people with an anti-identity politics agenda in general play up.
Venom
Philosopher
This I definitely think is something modern people don't care too much about. Part of that is Americans in particular are entrenched in the "black","white", "Asian" checkbox racial categories.
Most people don't seem to be inquisitive enough to make distinctions like that. And it's something minorities in the U.S. greatly internalize, from what I've seen and experienced.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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What's silly is that so many foolish people equate Socialist with Authoritarianism and Dictatorships. It would be like equating Capitalism with Authoritarianism and Dictatorships because of Putin.
This is why we need new definitions for everything. If social/political discourse is just doomed to stay in "Label the parts instead of having an actual argument or point to make" mode we at least need the labels to mean something that the political scales and divides created to describe the rise of the European Nation-State between the Napoleonic Wars and WW1 don't really describe social/political philosophies in 2020 all that well.
Armitage72
Philosopher
I've posted this video multiple times before, but to some, Socialism is "basically the views of Hitler."
Mumbles
Philosopher
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Many such people would likely equate Putin with Socialism - apart from Toupee Fiasco's sychophants that decided he's great since their leader compliments him.
That's not how this works. Most immigrant families, regardless of skin color, integrate fairly well in the US in 1-2 generations - and this definitely includes most black people from the Caribbean, and definitely Jamaica - See among others, Biggie Smalls, Kerry Washington, Mike Tyson and Colin Powell.
Im reminded of back when Obama's Kenyan ancestry suddenly became a reason for people to declare he wasn't "black American", which mostly unsavory people pushed back in 2008. Most people don't care, especially when Harris is an AKA, a Howard grad, and has used Mary J. Blige's "Work That" as her campaign theme.
They came there on cruise ships, on vacation, and liked it so much they decided to stay. How else could blacks have possibly gotten to Jamaica?”
angrysoba
Philosophile
Yes, it is silly. But the problem is that Sanders spoonfeeds his enemies with evidence for those comparisons. He himself will say “Castro did some good things” and “honeymoon in the Soviet Union”.
Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel said the same thing in the UK. Jeremy Corbyn dressed a bit like Lenin and had a history of saying positive things about Marx while John McDonnel threw a copy of Mao’s little red book across the dispatch box to the Chancellor, who then picked it up and said “oh you have a signed copy!”
They need to be smarter about how they define themselves if they want to appeal to people who are ready to believe that Socialism is authoritarian.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree. It really is a buzzword that most people don't understand. So many things even hard core right wingers support is actually a form of socialism. That includes crop and ethanol subsidies, unemployment, SSI, the fire department, the police department and the marines.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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I've posted this video multiple times before, but to some, Socialism is "basically the views of Hitler."
Classic.
I posted today that most voters are clueless. This proves my point.
Because with Sanders that is the point.
Let us be clear here. For 99% of progressives, the progressive/centrist divide has absolutely nothing to do with actual policy or political philosophy and everything to do with how confrontational they are, how much of a chip on their shoulder about "the system" they have, and how many progressive buzz words he uses.
These little moments of "Oh I'm not that far on the left... or am I *coyish giggle* I'll never tell" he keeps "accidentally" making are not accidents.
As multiple people have noted Sanders and Biden don't have radically different actual opinions on policies and the direction this country should be going. Sander's fandom is entirely based around him not actually working within the system, treating his inability to compromise as some noble quality.
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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I'm not sure I agree with the percentages. That said, I agree with the sentiment.
Ever see how many bills that have titles that are ridiculously misleading? Republicans are famous for doing this. They defend The Mom and Apple Pie Act, but the details of the bill is more The Dog Crap and Screw the Middle Class Act.
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angrysoba
Philosophile
There are some big differences such as Medicare for all.
angrysoba
Philosophile
I think that kind of difference is more than a pet project. But okay, then, free college paid for by a tax on Wall Street as well. There are genuine differences which surely is not on some esoteric level for people who may at some point in their life have health and education concerns (in other words, that niche of people with a human body and those who may need to earn an income).
"Medicare for all" is just "Universal Healthcare" rebranded because "Medicare" is one of the few forms of socialism that give the Republican's AARP base a stiffie.
And Joe Biden is all in on Univeral Healthcare.
And that's what I mean. The difference between Biden and Sanders is all tone, branding, and forcefulness of their message.
And Joe Biden is all in on Univeral Healthcare.
And that's what I mean. The difference between Biden and Sanders is all tone, branding, and forcefulness of their message.
angrysoba
Philosophile
Venom
Philosopher
From what I understand, Biden's public option + ACA plan is very similar to the healthcare systems of the first-world industrialized countries that Bernie Sanders keeps mentioning in his speeches.
Sanders' proposal "Medicare for All" is actually above and beyond that of what we see in the UK, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Singapore.
It's definitely a step towards universal healthcare, it just isn't the single-payer brand MEDICARE FOR ALL that Berniecrats adamantly call for.
Sanders' proposal "Medicare for All" is actually above and beyond that of what we see in the UK, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Singapore.
It's definitely a step towards universal healthcare, it just isn't the single-payer brand MEDICARE FOR ALL that Berniecrats adamantly call for.