Cont: Biden for President? Pt 3

[Delvo]

Ah yes, if one absurd distraction attempt that you already know the answers to fails, try another, only with a bunch of smugness added!

You're the ones with the claim that all of the Democrats who have won actually lost and the ones who have lost actually won, in one election after another after another after another, or that the key to winning is to mimic the losers and being more like the winners is a sure way to lose. You're the ones who need to do the explaining. You're not in a position to demand explanations from the people who are merely observing reality for what it is instead of pretending it's the exact opposite of itself.

Or you could just start just facing reality. I'll deal (again) with this lower-level-details-&-hypotheticals stuff you're trying to use to make reality go away, as soon as you acknowledge the fact that the big-picture conclusion you're trying to use it to prove has kept getting proven false every time it's been tested. With arguments that grass must be purple, it doesn't matter exactly where/how/why the arguments go wrong or how to correct them; the false conclusion alone is enough to show that the conclusion is false.

 

[wareyin]

Ah yes, if one absurd distraction attempt that you already know the answers to fails, try another, only with a bunch of smugness added!

You're the ones with the claim that all of the Democrats who have won actually lost and the ones who have lost actually won, in one election after another after another after another, or that the key to winning is to mimic the losers and being more like the winners is a sure way to lose. You're the ones who need to do the explaining. You're not in a position to demand explanations from the people who are merely observing reality for what it is instead of pretending it's the exact opposite of itself.

Sorry, but no. You are the one advancing a twice failed candidate who is far weaker against what Trump used to keep this election this close. The key to winning is not to run a candidate who is more weak with the Democrats and the center and far more likely to fire up the far right even more.

Or you could just start just facing reality. I'll deal (again) with this lower-level-details-&-hypotheticals stuff you're trying to use to make reality go away, as soon as you acknowledge the fact that the big-picture conclusion you're trying to use it to prove has kept getting proven false every time it's been tested. With arguments that grass must be purple, it doesn't matter exactly where/how/why the arguments go wrong or how to correct them; the false conclusion alone is enough to show that the conclusion is false.

When a Sanders supporter both claims that Sanders would have been better and whines about others using hypotheticals, I think even that Bernie-bro knows he has lost it.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Bernie bros are so weird. They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary. It's like claiming that the Washington Generals are a much better team than the Harlem Globetrotters...

 

[dirtywick]

Want to be nominated have to win the primary. It’s simple.

 

[theprestige]

Bernie bros are so weird. They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary. It's like claiming that the Washington Generals are a much better team than the Harlem Globetrotters...

Hey, being the foil in a comedy routine is hard work. So is being a stage magician's assistant.

Are you saying Bernie Sanders is basically the straight man to the mainstream Democrats' clown show?

 

[theprestige]

Want to be nominated have to win the primary. It’s simple.

It's like how the winning team in the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament advances further up the bracket than the losing teams.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Because they don't want Bernie to actually win. He stays the perpetual unproven reason they are right, as is his job.

 

[timhau]

Bernie bros are so weird. They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary. It's like claiming that the Washington Generals are a much better team than the Harlem Globetrotters...

If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually calls himself a socialist.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually describes himself as a sovialist.

The Bernie Bros have always argued there's some huge voting demographic, big enough to offset all of that, just sitting at home on election day in a huff who will rise up and vote when an ideologically pure enough candidate is finally presented on silver platter for them.

That's the whole issue with the "Oh it's the Dems elected an unlikeable candidate" argument. While it has some validity in on a practical, political level as an ideological argument it's insane.

I get it it. We all want massage to come with a happy ending. But if the only massage on the menu doesn't come with a happy ending you don't either not get the massage or opt for "Kick me in the balls" option.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Looking for the "Biden presidency" thread, which probably won't go for 20+ pages since he's an adult and won't constantly manufacture scandals.

If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually calls himself a socialist.

true dat.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I think people underrate personalities.
Trump, although I don't like his personality, is at least interesting.

Biden is not. He's completely uninspiring. Compare that with Obama, who was a great orator and an interesting person.

 

[Woolgatherer]

I think people underrate personalities.
Trump, although I don't like his personality, is at least interesting.

Biden is not. He's completely uninspiring. Compare that with Obama, who was a great orator and an interesting person.

Trump is "interesting" where Obama is fascinating. I did vote for Biden but I was thinking "this is the best candidate the Dems could come up with"?

 

[Delvo]

Bernie bros are so weird.

What's weird is the obsession by the anti-Bernie brigade, constantly bringing up "Bernie Bernie Bernie" when he's not even the subject anyway.

Your claim is that Biden would win the general election because being "moderate" is how to win. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.

Your claim is that campaigning to the left would lose the general election because going left is how to lose. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.

The examples that can be used to measure a principle about how general elections (for President) go don't include people who haven't been in a general election (for President). But the available examples prove that your claims are false every single time, so arguing for your false principles that have never worked means you have nothing to resort to but things that haven't ever even happened.

They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary.

Obviously false. You know as well as everybody else does that that's just not how it works... especially since your own perpetuation of the fear-mongering "ELECTABLE!" myth, which has always been false in actual real-world cases, are the main reason why that's not how it works. (That part makes it just like the people who stir up controversy over evolution so they can then yell "teach the controversy", and put a religious slogan on the country's cash so they can then yell that it's "a Christian nation" because it has their slogan on its cash.)

But oh no no no, there's some way for the claim that everything is somehow really exactly the opposite of all real-world examples to make sense, because Bernie Bernie Bernie.

 

[wareyin]

Your claim is that Biden would win the general election because being "moderate" is how to win. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.

Your claim is now that no moderate Democrat or moderate Republican has ever won? Are you sure about that?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I haven't seen a populist progressive win in my lifetime.

Neoliberal centrists have done quite well campaigning as populist progressives.

Maybe that's the confusion.

:9

 

[Mumbles]

I think people underrate personalities.

I agree - and have said so many times.

Trump, although I don't like his personality, is at least interesting.

I don't agree with this. He's basically an 80s shock jock, or a comedian whose routine consists of telling people how triggered they are and how he identifies as an attack helicopter. He's bigoted, narcissistic, bigoted, and tacky. That's about all he is. I know people say he's funny or entertaining...I don't see it.

Biden is not. He's completely uninspiring. Compare that with Obama, who was a great orator and an interesting person.

Biden strikes me as more the down home, cares about you old guy that Dolt 45 is advertised as. Nowhere near the joke-cracking, charismatic speaker Obama is, but still reasonably good.

In any case, I've been pretty clear that Sanders losing a second campaign was completely predictable, in large part because it was the exact campaign he ran the first time, with the same major flaws, against the same easy shoe-in type of opponent. Only more so, since Biden picked up some a few of his better advisers and lacked the...well, the uterus that Clinton had really, and Sanders stuck with widely disliked people like Brianna Grey. And for the most part, this just meant he did worse in 2020 than he did in 2016. And I don't see a reason to think he'd do better than Biden in this election, really - the two big attacks are "Biden's got dementia" based on a few selected clips, and "He's a soshulist", based on...nothing. The first can be used on any elderly person, the second would hit Sanders much harder than Biden.

 

[Venom]

I'm less confident about Sanders' chances being better than Biden after seeing Florida Latinos high on the anti-socialist spell and strong Republican states completely closing out any chance of a Biden steal, and with the other battlegrounds deadlocked a few thousand votes difference at most.

But Sanders would bring far more energy than Biden that could possibly bring more people out in the general. I don't know if the anti-socialist rhetoric would drown out Sanders' more aggressive, forward approach that Biden largely avoided.

 

[angrysoba]

Look, I also wanted Sanders to win the primary and the general election, but look at just how effective Trump was at getting out the vote. This was not some easy victory. Trump got more votes than Obama ever did! Think about how crazy that is!

Sanders would have been toast! You only have to look at the...er...polls to see how unfavourable socialists are in America.

I want it to be different but it isn't.

Biden actually managed a massive tally of votes.

 

[angrysoba]

I'm less confident about Sanders' chances being better than Biden after seeing Florida Latinos high on the anti-socialist spell and strong Republican states completely closing out any chance of a Biden steal, and with the other battlegrounds deadlocked a few thousand votes difference at most.

But Sanders would bring far more energy than Biden that could possibly bring more people out in the general. I don't know if the anti-socialist rhetoric would drown out Sanders' more aggressive, forward approach that Biden largely avoided.

Nah! I don't see it. Where are these people coming from?

When the final votes are counted, how many more would there have been to bring out?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Nah! I don't see it. Where are these people coming from?

When the final votes are counted, how many more would there have been to bring out?

I know more people who voted for Biden that would never vote for Sanders than I do people who would vote for Sanders, but never Biden.

Most have student loan debt from medical school, but they are not alone.