Cont: Biden for President? Pt 2

[bam]

Ah, Mythbusters...one of my family's favorite shows we used to watch together.

A few problems:
Jamie started at 24 ft. not 50 ft.
Adam didn't have his gun already drawn as a policeman would.
Adam is not a trained police officer.

Other than that, you were spot on how it would be the same as a suspect who was 50 or more feet away having a gun pointed at him by a trained cop.

Let me try to lead you through this...you said, "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to." YOUR SCENARIO, NOT MINE.

I pointed out that 50' is not much of a distance for a running man and could be covered in less than 3 seconds. I also pointed out in another post that most people are lucky to get off 1 aimed shot per second. I didn't point out the (to me at least) obvious first second or two that you need to draw your gun and belabor the point that it would then take another second to fire an aimed round. I did point out that even trained police officers often end up shooting hands and arms due to the fact that even though they are trained it is instinctive to humans to focus on the threat rather than their training. Shooting people in the legs is, in a word, stupid. It's another level of training likely to be forgotten in a stressful moment while they're in a 3 second life or death situation. Could you do it?

 

[Stacyhs]

Working plainclothes duty, working for a department that requires off-duty officers to carry within their jurisdiction, carrying it for protection in case one of the bad people you may have encountered in your career sees you on your day off and decides it would be a good time to get even? None of these scenarios even cross your mind while you profess to think it over?

Um no. Plainclothes police carry their guns in concealed holsters, not purses.

Carrying a weapon in a purse, even off duty, is not recommended for obvious reasons.

You are trying to come up with a reason against my opinion about less lethal first shooting. We are talking about on duty cops who are overwhelmingly those officers confronted with situations like these, not off duty or dept store security guards.

And I suggest you drop the aggressive attitude you've had since first addressing me. I don't even remember engaging with you before.

 

[lobosrul5]

Shooting for legs or arms lessens the chance of a hit. It does not guarantee stopping the threat or not killing someone. It increases the chance of bystander injury. If you have time to aim for a limb, you have time to use a taser or pepper spray instead.

If you are gonna use a gun, it’s a situation which warrants lethal force. If your goal is to replace a fence plank, are you gonna pull out the sledgehammer?

It was a suggestion on the same level as Trump’s musings about injected bleach (or my own about a Biden/Rice ticket ;p) -someone who has no idea what they are talking about coming up with “ideas.”

Don’t defend it, it was dumb...a fantasy (again, like a Biden/Rice ticket).

I'll give my honestly honest, super no BS opinion.

It was a Biden gaff, but it was nowhere near as dumb as saying people should drink bleach. I mean thats just... yikes. Drink something that will 100% kill you? OK.

Shooting to wound is something that should be considered in rare instances. A regular duty cop alone draws his weapon to respond to a threat expecting him to think through shooting to wound or not when he has a split second to make a life or death decision is not realistic or fair.

OTOH there are some rare cases where I think shooting to wound is appropriate, and apparently some foreign police forces do as well.

A situation where things are relatively contained, you have SWAT officers with long guns, but they can't get close enough to use less than lethal force. Shooting to wound could be appropriate. Especially if you had a sniper on a building. A miss would just hit the area nearby. If the situation gets worse, well you have backup officers to shoot to kill just in case.

But that doesn't seem to be what Biden meant, without some pretty creative interpretation.

 

[bam]

And I'm still not sure why. My point is and was, you are hardly the first person I've seen get the 50' rule mixed up. Seeing a possible threat 50' away with a melee weapon. Good excuse for a cop to draw his weapon? Yes I totally agree. Shoot someone to kill 50' away before they even run at you instead of trying anything else? No.



Believe me I know all of this... just so you know I've done competition pistol shooting from speed holsters and a variety of concealed carry holster locations.



Yes situations can become complex. I don't think that absolves police if they kill someone without it being necessary though.

Another strawman? Who did I absolve? What did I confuse by responding to a scenario about a 50' encounter posed by another poster?

 

[Bob001]

I totally disagree. The police should only shoot to kill when they have no other choice. A guy running at you with a knife or bat, etc will go down if shot in the leg a time or two. You don't just go directly to "kill" if it's not necessary. THAT is what is divisive and pro-riot.
.....

The point is that any gunshot can be lethal, even a shot to a leg that cuts an artery. It can also miss and strike a bystander. And cops aren't Wyatt Earp. Shooting at a moving target's leg doesn't guarantee that's what will be hit. Do we want that to be another defense to a police killing? "Gee, I was only trying hit his shin. Whoops!" Cops aren't supposed to shoot at all unless lethal force is justified. Never forget that cops are also armed with batons, pepper spray and often tasers. If we can expect a cop to successfully shoot for a leg, maybe we should also expect him to be able to wield a two-foot steel baton effectively.

 

[Stacyhs]

No need to insert your own strawmen, I clearly put forth a scenario where Stachys would have difficulty in finding a gun in her purse before her attacker could cover the 50' distance.
There's plenty of videos out if you don't like the Mythbusters segment. In real life police aren't walking around with guns drawn on every encounter they have with people. In addition they are required to use retention holsters that can slow down their draw and their attention is rarely able to be focused on just one possible threat. A run-of-the-mill domestic violence situation has at least two excited people to keep track of and traffic stops may have four or five people involved depending on the size of the car.

Why you put forth a scenario where I would have trouble getting a gun out in time is confusing. Neither Biden nor I was talking about civilians; were were talking about police officers.

You are presenting individual scenarios where an officer may not have time to assess the threat to determine if lethal or non-lethal force should be used. No one is suggesting there are not such situations. All I've said is that, depending on what the officer determines at the time, non-lethal should be use first. You are trying to make a one size fits all argument.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Cops aren't supposed to shoot at all unless lethal force is justified.

And yet they do. They've argued "justified" down to "feeling a little threatened," and from there to "technically this guy could have been a threat if he'd been armed and high on pcp and not a ten year old black kid playing pokemon go, our bad lol."

I think "you don't get to kill people anymore" is the minimum first step towards making this better.

 

[Stacyhs]

Let me try to lead you through this...you said, "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to." YOUR SCENARIO, NOT MINE.

I pointed out that 50' is not much of a distance for a running man and could be covered in less than 3 seconds. I also pointed out in another post that most people are lucky to get off 1 aimed shot per second. I didn't point out the (to me at least) obvious first second or two that you need to draw your gun and belabor the point that it would then take another second to fire an aimed round. I did point out that even trained police officers often end up shooting hands and arms due to the fact that even though they are trained it is instinctive to humans to focus on the threat rather than their training. Shooting people in the legs is, in a word, stupid. It's another level of training likely to be forgotten in a stressful moment while they're in a 3 second life or death situation. Could you do it?

No, I'm done. Upon reading your first condescending sentence, I've decided not to engage you further. Your aggressive attitude with me is unacceptable, uncalled for, and frankly, confusing as to why you took it from the very beginning.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

No, I'm done. Upon reading your first condescending sentence, I've decided not to engage you further. Your aggressive attitude with me is unacceptable, uncalled for, and frankly, confusing as to why you took it from the very beginning.

He's asserting control of the situation, ma'am, PLEASE STEP AWAY.

 

[Cabbage]

I only responded to the scenario given by Stacyhs: "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to."

...which she made in a debate over Biden's comments referencing police brutality, just like I said and continue to say.

I'd be glad to engage with you if you got something besides ignorant snark?

Calling out your strawman isn't snark. Sorry. Hell, you were (erroneously) calling out strawman even before I did.

I mean, like, make up your mind already.

 

[bam]

Um no. Plainclothes police carry their guns in concealed holsters, not purses.

Carrying a weapon in a purse, even off duty, is not recommended for obvious reasons.

You are trying to come up with a reason against my opinion about less lethal first shooting. We are talking about on duty cops who are overwhelmingly those officers confronted with situations like these, not off duty or dept store security guards.

And I suggest you drop the aggressive attitude you've had since first addressing me. I don't even remember engaging with you before.

Plainclothes police carry their weapons where they can, female officers wearing shorts and a modest top utilize purses in real life both on and off duty.

I'm all for less than lethal encounters based on common sense and real life results. Shooting a knife-wielding man charging at me or you with a aimed shot in the legs within 3 seconds doesn't cut it. Utilize less-than-lethal technology - bag launcher, taser or pepper spray if possible.

If you don't like the responses you get try something different. Try thinking the scenario through first before trying to post and score some sort of internet points. I reserve the right to comment on nonsense when I see it whether it's in politics or ct's.

 

[Stacyhs]

The point is that any gunshot can be lethal, even a shot to a leg that cuts an artery. It can also miss and strike a bystander. And cops aren't Wyatt Earp. Shooting at a moving target's leg doesn't guarantee that's what will be hit. Do we want that to be another defense to a police killing? "Gee, I was only trying hit his shin. Whoops!" Cops aren't supposed to shoot at all unless lethal force is justified. Never forget that cops are also armed with batons, pepper spray and often tasers. If we can expect a cop to successfully shoot for a leg, maybe we should also expect him to be able to wield a two-foot steel baton effectively.

Of course any shot can be lethal. That shouldn't even need to be said.

As I said, it should be up to the officer at the time to determine the threat level and his/her response. If they don't think they can stop the threat by shooting at the legs, then they don't shoot at the legs.

Shooting to kill has also ended up with innocent bystanders being killed.

 

[Cabbage]

I only responded to the scenario given by Stacyhs: "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to."

I'd be glad to engage with you if you got something besides ignorant snark?

Oh, and this was one of your first (maybe the first) posts in this exchange:

Another topic you can't be bothered to actually think about? A knife wielding attacker could cover the 50' distance and be stabbing you in less than 3 seconds. Could you even find a gun in your purse in that time?

In the real world people are routinely timed in the 40 yard dash (120') in less than 4.3 seconds. 350 lb NFL linemen routinely complete it under 5 seconds.

And here you have the unmitigated audacity to accuse me of snark???

GTFO with that nonsense.

 

[bam]

"We need the ability to kill anyone around us within five seconds because you never know if they're a bad guy" describes a lot of what's wrong with modern law enforcement mentality.

In your world is some guy holding a knife 50' from you cause for concern or is it something you regularly encounter everywhere you go? What if you were asked to help get a knife away from a "crazy dude threatening to kill people" outside your favorite cafe or coffeeshop? Imagine responding as a police officer - do you go rushing in or stay back? If you stop much beyond 50 feet are you going to be able to try to calmly talk to the person or will you have to yell to be heard above traffic or other noise and risk agitating this person you've never met before? If you pull your gun you're going to be accused of escalating the situation, if you leave it secured and try to calm the situation you may have to react to an attacking man very quickly. If you do have to shoot do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at a moving target in the legs without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person?

 

[bam]

Oh, and this was one of your first (maybe the first) posts in this exchange:




And here you have the unmitigated audacity to accuse me of snark???

GTFO with that nonsense.

You still jibber jabbering? What can I help you with good sir? Have an intelligent question you'd actually like answered?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

In your world is some guy holding a knife 50' from you cause for concern or is it something you regularly encounter everywhere you go? What if you were asked to help get a knife away from a "crazy dude threatening to kill people" outside your favorite cafe or coffeeshop? Imagine responding as a police officer - do you go rushing in or stay back? If you stop much beyond 50 feet are you going to be able to try to calmly talk to the person or will you have to yell to be heard above traffic or other noise and risk agitating this person you've never met before? If you pull your gun you're going to be accused of escalating the situation, if you leave it secured and try to calm the situation you may have to react to an attacking man very quickly. If you do have to shoot do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at a moving target in the legs without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person?

Does he even have a knife? Are you even looking at the right guy? Why does everything immediately come to a life or death situation?

Cops aren't even in the top ten most dangerous professions. When was the last time you passed a roofer and thanked him for his service? He's way more likely to die from inattention on the job.

[ETA] You know what would be likely to spook someone more than anything? Someone pointing a gun and screaming at them.

 

[wareyin]

It's divisive and pro-riot.

When Trump is being lambasted all over for being divisive and pro-riot, that sure is the proper time to project that onto Biden. Trump said to shoot citizens, threatened to use the military to occupy American cities, flat out told the police to be as rough as they wanted with suspects, and his supporters are saying that Biden telling cops not to kill people as a first resort is what's "divisive and pro-riot." That's some weapons grade gas-lighting there!

 

[Cabbage]

You still jibber jabbering? What can I help you with good sir? Have an intelligent question you'd actually like answered?

Why are you incapable of actual debate without resorting to snark and strawmen?

Yes, I'd really like that answered. I won't claim it's a particularly intelligent question; let me know if you ever decide to be open to moving the debate in an intelligent direction.

 

[bam]

Does he even have a knife? Are you even looking at the right guy? Why does everything immediately come to a life or death situation?

Cops aren't even in the top ten most dangerous professions. When was the last time you passed a roofer and thanked him for his service? He's way more likely to die from inattention on the job.

[ETA] You know what would be likely to spook someone more than anything? Someone pointing a gun and screaming at them.

I'd like to continue on with the conditions first posted by Stacyhs as it was originally her scenario, not mine and I don't want to be accused of taking it out of context. She posted, "What a load of bollocks. You say that a knife is equivalent to a gun in an attack when it's certainly not. A guy with gun 50 feet away can kill you; a guy with a knife running at you from 50 ft. away can't at that point. Take him down with a shot or two to the legs. If that doesn't stop him, then shoot to kill. Lethal force should very rarely be the first go to."

Does he have a knife - Yes, Stacy didn't say possibly or call it a pillow.
Is it the right guy - Yes, the guy with the knife who is running at you.
Why is everything immediately a life or death situation - I never stated everything was but I would characterize a 3 second encounter with a knife-wielding man as IDLH, would you?

I have thanked roofers and been thanked for roofing, do I get bonus points?

I agree that yelling at someone with a gun aimed at them could be stressful and could spook them but I didn't recommend or require it. I've answered your questions, could you address mine below?

In your world is some guy holding a knife 50' from you cause for concern or is it something you regularly encounter everywhere you go? What if you were asked to help get a knife away from a "crazy dude threatening to kill people" outside your favorite cafe or coffeeshop? Imagine responding as a police officer - do you go rushing in or stay back? If you stop much beyond 50 feet are you going to be able to try to calmly talk to the person or will you have to yell to be heard above traffic or other noise and risk agitating this person you've never met before? If you pull your gun you're going to be accused of escalating the situation, if you leave it secured and try to calm the situation you may have to react to an attacking man very quickly. If you do have to shoot do you think 3 seconds is a lot of time to draw your weapon, aim a shot at a moving target in the legs without endangering any bystanders and avoid being hurt if you miss or only slightly wound the person?

 

[bam]

Why are you incapable of actual debate without resorting to snark and strawmen?

Yes, I'd really like that answered. I won't claim it's a particularly intelligent question; let me know if you ever decide to be open to moving the debate in an intelligent direction.

Post an intelligent question and I'll do my best. Help me help you!