Bible studies approved

[cj.23]

Well, assuming they were being honest in their class offerings --- they couldn't afford to.

The "shortage" isn't caused by a lack of people with teaching credentials; the "shortage" is caused by a lack of people with teaching credentials who are willing to move to South Bumbleburgh, Texas to teach for $13,000 a year under the supervision of the South Bumbleburgh Area School District.

Ouch! My niece for a 50% paid deal on her mortgage,c.$49,000 p.a.and a $15,000 subject and relocation package on her first year as a newly qualified primary school teacher. That is rather more. Are you sure Texan teachers re this badly paid? UK state schools are not huge payers, though masses better than twenty years ago. My niece got noweher enear the best deal - doubling will give rough dollar equivalents...

• New entrants to the profession in England, Wales and Northern Ireland start on the main salary scale, which rises incrementally from £19,641 - £28,707. There are special enhanced payscales for teachers working in or near to London. In Scotland new entrants' starting salary is £19,440, rising to £31,008 (salary data collected Sep 06).
• After gaining experience and expertise, teachers can apply to 'pass the threshold' and go onto an upper scale, which rises incrementally to £33,444. Especially skilled classroom teachers may go on to become advanced skills teachers ASTs (in England and Wales) or chartered teachers (in Scotland); other teachers may move into management roles. These roles attract considerable salary increases: ASTs earn from £34,083 - £51,819; chartered teachers can earn up to £38,868.
• Experienced classroom teachers undertaking additional responsibility can be given Teaching and Learning Responsibility payments (TLR).
• Payscales are reviewed annually. Full and current information on salary scales is available on the websites of the teaching unions and TeacherNet, a website developed by the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (DIUS) for teachers.

So an experienced UK teacher in a primary school (or secondary school - salaries are broadly identical) can expect $60K to $100K a year.) As an HE junior lecturer I could command the princely sum of £28 an hour contact time, so teaching two courses could bring home about $220 a week before tax, so about $800 a month. My rent to give you an idea is £640 pcm, so about $1250. Usually when lecturing I was claiming Housing Benefit and Income Support. Today, ten years on full time positions are far rarer, but if you can get one at my age (38) you would be on about £30,000, that is roughly $60,000 a year. However most universities seem to prefer to employ lots of part time staff, and few have tenure now. It may be different at at uni's though? So teachers here are very well paid. I would cheerfuylly move to the US for $60,000 a year as I understand the cost of living is significantly lower there, or am I misled?

But, of course, the other problem is that the sponsors of this program don't really want "qualified religion teachers" any more than your local crystal healer wants to hire RNs for patient care. What the sponsors are really looking for is not qualified religious instruction, but Sunday-school-during-the-week, and I suspect your ex- would get really annoyed with being presented with material that starts out with the assumption that Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament.

She would smile sweetly and say "er sure, so he represents the J,E,P, and D sources? The idea Moses wrote them all himself is very interesting, especially as he a) dies at the end of one book, and presumably wrote about his own death (in the mountains unseen as I recall?) then dropped dead, and b) he says he was the most modest of men as I recall, which is hardly the writing of a modest man, leading to a paradox?" Then she would launch in to Wellhausen, and the JEPD source hypothesis, and the strengths and weaknesses of it. Get the kids involved a little detective mystery! I personally recall one of the best lessons i ever had, somewhere between age 9 and 12 (middle school) was on the Synoptic Problem - which gospekl was written first? It was thrilling stuff, and made me for the first time consider if any of this was more than the fairy stories I had always assumed! This stuff is fascinating, and kids really enjoy it...

cj x

 

[drkitten]

Ouch! My niece for a 50% paid deal on her mortgage,c.$49,000 p.a.and a $15,000 subject and relocation package on her first year as a newly qualified primary school teacher. That is rather more. Are you sure Texan teachers re this badly paid?

It's a slight exaggeration, but not much. Average teacher starting salaries in Texas are about $22,000. Average teacher starting salaries nationwide are about $25,000. Mortgage assistance and such like are almost unheard of, as are relocation expenses.

And, of course, these are "average" salaries; the typical rural or urban-blight school which is having trouble with recruitment is also usually the school that pays less than average, simply because the tax base won't support huge salaries. (And schools are funded through local, not national, taxes in the USA.)

She would smile sweetly and say "er sure, so he represents the J,E,P, and D sources? The idea Moses wrote them all himself is very interesting, especially as he a) dies at the end of one book, and presumably wrote about his own death (in the mountains unseen as I recall?) then dropped dead, and b) he says he was the most modest of men as I recall, which is hardly the writing of a modest man, leading to a paradox?"

She might be tempted, but that would almost certainly cost her her job.

... which may or may not be a good thing; certainly, the kind of job where she was expected to teach material contrary to all standards of scholarship is not the sort of job a good teacher wants to hold. But that's kind of my point. The reason there's a shortage is not because no one can take the job, but because no one wants it.

 

[gdnp]

Not everywhere are the salaries as bad as Texas. In NJ it is not unheard of for teachers to make over 100K, which is not bad for around 185 days of work. Of course, the cost of living in the NY area eats up much of the differential: You'd better have a partner with an income if you expect to live in a decent apartment.

 

[Oliver]

*snip* the Texas state's Board of Education *snip*

Case solved? :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt

 

[drkitten]

Not everywhere are the salaries as bad as Texas. In NJ it is not unheard of for teachers to make over 100K, which is not bad for around 185 days of work.

Not unheard of, but still fairly rare. The 2004-5 salary survey says that New Jersey is the third best-paying state on average, with an average salary of just under $57,000. Note that this is the average salary, not the average starting salary, which I believe (but haven't checked) is about $30,000.

A teacher making $100,000 per year is making nearly double the average salary. Not exactly the sort of thing I would tell people to expect.

 

[cj.23]

She might be tempted, but that would almost certainly cost her her job.

Er, is this why they are so badly paid, because the school boards are constantly fighting unfair dismissal suits? Seriously, any one in the UK dismissing a teacher for teaching perfectly normal academic Biblical Criticism would get sued mightily - is this not the same in the USA? Do not the Teachers Unions go ballistic about such things???

cj x

 

[RandFan]

Case solved? :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt

In other words:

• Pointing out Christian based ignorance is good.
• Pointing out Muslim based ignorance is bad.

Hypocrisy 101

 

[gdnp]

Not unheard of, but still fairly rare. The 2004-5 salary survey says that New Jersey is the third best-paying state on average, with an average salary of just under $57,000. Note that this is the average salary, not the average starting salary, which I believe (but haven't checked) is about $30,000.

A teacher making $100,000 per year is making nearly double the average salary. Not exactly the sort of thing I would tell people to expect.

Your numbers seem more realistic than mine. This site gives the average salary in 2007-2008 as $57K and the average starting salary $37K, with salaries topping off at $93K, presumably a teacher with an advanced degree and many years experience. There are potential extras for things like coaching, and benefits are supposed to be pretty good. Including a 2+ month summer break. I believe that teachers work about 180-190 days per year. I get paid a lot more, but I also work around 245 days per year.

 

[Piggy]

A first-year teacher in public schools in my state, with a bachelor's degree, makes about $31k (20k euros) on average.

If you're in a poor district, where fundies are more likely to have a stronger influence on the science curriculum, you're going to make less than the average.

 

[196]

I believe that teachers work about 180-190 days per year.

For most teachers those are 190 very long days and during the school year many of us put in a full day on Saturday. I've seen a few slack teachers, but most of us work pretty hard, not for the money, but for kids. FWIW, for "summer break" I'm taking a class.

 

[Piggy]

For most teachers those are 190 very long days and during the school year many of us put in a full day on Saturday. I've seen a few slack teachers, but most of us work pretty hard, not for the money, but for kids. FWIW, for "summer break" I'm taking a class.

The thing about teaching is that it doesn't stop.

You don't really have time off, because the reality is that you have to grade on your own time and you have to prep on your own time.

It can be difficult to actually relax when you're a teacher, because there's that voice in the back of your head saying "you could be grading, you could be prepping, you could be commenting in more detail on your students' papers".

But in my experience, there are no teachers who are able to leave the job when they walk off the premises.

 

[gdnp]

For most teachers those are 190 very long days and during the school year many of us put in a full day on Saturday. I've seen a few slack teachers, but most of us work pretty hard, not for the money, but for kids. FWIW, for "summer break" I'm taking a class.

My point was not to disparage the efforts of teachers, the overwheliming majority of whom are dedicated professionals who, if not underpaid, are certainly not overpaid given the importance of the work they do. No one goes into it for the easy money, that is for sure.

 

[Nogbad]

Are they compulserary?

I don't think so - I think Muslim families elect to send their kids to them.

 

[cj.23]

Your numbers seem more realistic than mine. This site gives the average salary in 2007-2008 as $57K and the average starting salary $37K, with salaries topping off at $93K, presumably a teacher with an advanced degree and many years experience. There are potential extras for things like coaching, and benefits are supposed to be pretty good. Including a 2+ month summer break. I believe that teachers work about 180-190 days per year. I get paid a lot more, but I also work around 245 days per year.

That's interesting! Is that even legal? I guess you are self employed? It is a long working year, but I am glad you can do it. Just done the maths - standard working week would be 261 days,- statutory 28 days paid holiday (assuming US get this like us?) = 232 days, - Bank Holidays (maybe Americans don't have State holidays?) say 5, = about 228 days? You are doing about 3 weeks more! I know many people who do work 6 days a week, but with less hours. One of my friends actually has just had their working week cut by an hour to meet the EU Working Time Directive as well, but their pay was increased to compensate - they do the maximum 45 hour week now.

Of course the number of days is not the significant part - it's as I'm sure you know the number of hours. Now i used to actually lecture 4-6 hours a week, but worked rather more hours at the uni. School teachers in my experience are doing lesson prep,marking or our of school activities most of the time,and professional development. Hence the incredible strain of the job. I;m pretty sure is the EU Limit of 45 hour is ever actually applied to them our educational system will melt down. And if junior doctors try that, God help us all!

Seriously though, I have a strong impression Americans may have less employment rights than us and work far longer hours generally. Pay for teaching seems VERY low in comparison, but without other wages to compare with it may be that its very good, just the cost of living and average US salary is very different?

cj x

 

[gdnp]

That's interesting! Is that even legal? I guess you are self employed? It is a long working year, but I am glad you can do it.

Nope, work in a hospital. I did the numbers like this:

260 weekdays
8 paid holidays, 3 personal days, and 20 days vacation leaves 229 working weekdays. I also average 4 or 5 meeting days a year: does that count as work, or not?

I worked 24 divisional weekend days and 3 departmental weekend days, bringing me back to 256 days. I suppose you could count the weekend work as less than a day since it only averages 4-5 hours, but the departmental shifts are 12 hours.

256 days. I undercounted. And quite legal for professionals, with no overtime pay required.

This does not count weekend and evening time preparing lectures, or moonlighting I do off hours for extra income. Fortunately, I like what I do. Better to work 256 days at a well paying job you like than 220 at a low paying job you hate.

Two weeks to vacation.

 

[drkitten]

Er, is this why they are so badly paid, because the school boards are constantly fighting unfair dismissal suits?

No, because she wouldn't have standing to sue, either (esp. in Texas, which is an "Employment at Will" state, i.e. you don't actually have to state why you're firing them, therefore can't prove that the dismissal was "unfair.")

Even in the UK, I suspect that if you look at a teaching contract, you are hired to TEACH THE CURRICULUM (which is a perfectly legitimate thing as it keeps the maths teacher from deciding that subtraction is unimportant and calculus should be taught instead). Departure from the established curriculum and established standards is treated, legally, as any other willful failure on the employees part to follow established procedure, and is grounds for dismissal.

The difference, of course, is that the UK has a relatively sensible national curriculum that follows normal academic practice. (Indeed, that's almost a "by definition" sort of thing, since the national curriculum DEFINES standard pedagogical practice.) The Federalist system in the States means that each state and locality can define their own curriculum, and they differ quite a bit. Including sometimes to the point of nut-case-ness (as the recent Kansas debates -- or Pennsylvania trials -- show).

 

[drkitten]

Seriously though, I have a strong impression Americans may have less employment rights than us and work far longer hours generally.

Absolutely. There are no legally-mandated holidays at all, neither the 28 days of "statuatory holiday" nor even a mandate to allow people not to work on Christmas Day. (Remember Scrooge?) Employment tribunals are much less effective and the rules are stacked in the employers favor (for example, "employmen at will" means you never have to explain why you fired someone, you just tell the to clean out their desk.) Most employees are given between one and two weeks vacation a year, plus six or so major national holidays -- Christmas, New Year's Day, Thanksgiving, Labor Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day. (Thanksgiving is on a Thursday, always; a lot of places will not give that Friday off.)

Pay for teaching seems VERY low in comparison, but without other wages to compare with it may be that its very good, just the cost of living and average US salary is very different?

No, it's appallingly bad pay in comparison to other comparably educated white-collar professionals.

 

[shadron]

For most teachers those are 190 very long days and during the school year many of us put in a full day on Saturday. I've seen a few slack teachers, but most of us work pretty hard, not for the money, but for kids. FWIW, for "summer break" I'm taking a class.

I have taught college level classes where the participants are really there to learn - in most cases, it was their money paying for he courses, and they were serious. No such thing as discipline or behavior problems to be addressed. And after six hours of it the teacher is drained. There is simply no other way to put it; you feel more tired after that than if you had been doing roofing or some other medium-heavy, continuous task all day. You may be elated and even euphoric after a session, but your body knows it's been worked.

I don't gainsay teachers for their summers off.

 

[Oliver]

In other words:

• Pointing out Christian based ignorance is good.
• Pointing out Muslim based ignorance is bad.

Hypocrisy 101

Nope - you failed to comprehend my general point of view, which is: Religion is stupid in general. There is no reason for you to think that Islam is more stupid than Christianity. They're still equally stupid from a skeptical POV based on facts rather than ancient blabbering ...

 

[cj.23]

No, because she wouldn't have standing to sue, either (esp. in Texas, which is an "Employment at Will" state, i.e. you don't actually have to state why you're firing them, therefore can't prove that the dismissal was "unfair.")

How does anyone get a mortgage or credit rating in Texas? If you can be sacked at any time it must be very difficult?

Even in the UK, I suspect that if you look at a teaching contract, you are hired to TEACH THE CURRICULUM (which is a perfectly legitimate thing as it keeps the maths teacher from deciding that subtraction is unimportant and calculus should be taught instead). Departure from the established curriculum and established standards is treated, legally, as any other willful failure on the employees part to follow established procedure, and is grounds for dismissal.

Yes but in your example the curriculum was to teach the authorshiip of the Pentateuch. The idea it was Moses could not be taught without critiquing and presenting the alternatives. The British National Curriculum came in in 1988, after I left school but it still allows massive leeway for teachers to decide what to teach - lesson plans are not standardized, only the subject areas taught, that is the curriculum. So individual teachers still play a huge role here in how to present the lessons and what to discuss to meet the learning objectives.

cj x