Best Modern Fantasy and SF

[D'rok]

I have no idea where you said that.

Which of those bolded words is "untrained". Nonetheless, I didn't know that he has a Masters in English. They don't give those away for nothing, so I have to give him some credit.

Fair enough. You don't have to be convinced. But why do you think he's attempting to manipulate you? It follows that he has the skill to manipulate you, but skill and application of skill are quite different. A Marine probably has the skill to kill anyone he encounters in a random city, this does not make all Marines serial killers. One can have the skill to kill, and not use it.

One can have the skill to manipulate and... not use it.

You state he attempts to manipulate, but really transparently. You conclude that he is really bad at manipulation and writing. I submit that you've begged the question with your premise.

Dunstan linked to an essay that started with a quote from Card:

"There's always moral instruction whether the writer inserts it deliberately or not. The least effective moral instruction in fiction is that which is consciously inserted. Partly because it won't reflect the storyteller's true beliefs, it will only reflect what he BELIEVES he believes, or what he thinks he should believe or what he's been persuaded of.

But when you write without deliberately expressing moral teachings, the morals that show up are the ones you actually live by. The beliefs that you don't even think to question, that you don't even notice-- those will show up. And that tells much more truth about what you believe than your deliberate moral machinations."

Taken at face value, Card is saying that he is unintentionally providing moral instruction in his fiction. I don't buy the "unintentionally" part one bit. As 'Uncle Orson" in his weekly column, he devotes a lot of time and a lot of words to crystal clear moral instruction - especially when it comes to homosexuality. The man has an agenda. A vile one, at that.

Regarding the quality of his writing...well...we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do consider The Worthing Saga to be much higher quality than Ender's Game.

 

[GreyICE]

Dunstan linked to an essay that started with a quote from Card:

"There's always moral instruction whether the writer inserts it deliberately or not. The least effective moral instruction in fiction is that which is consciously inserted. Partly because it won't reflect the storyteller's true beliefs, it will only reflect what he BELIEVES he believes, or what he thinks he should believe or what he's been persuaded of.

But when you write without deliberately expressing moral teachings, the morals that show up are the ones you actually live by. The beliefs that you don't even think to question, that you don't even notice-- those will show up. And that tells much more truth about what you believe than your deliberate moral machinations."

Taken at face value, Card is saying that he is unintentionally providing moral instruction in his fiction. I don't buy the "unintentionally" part one bit. As 'Uncle Orson" in his weekly column, he devotes a lot of time and a lot of words to crystal clear moral instruction - especially when it comes to homosexuality. The man has an agenda. A vile one, at that.

Regarding the quality of his writing...well...we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do consider The Worthing Saga to be much higher quality than Ender's Game.

I can't argue with his premise that an author's beliefs and values will influence their work.

Nevertheless I think you're reading a bit much into what he wrote there. In the introduction to the later version's of Ender's game, he does mention that there are layers to Ender's Game beyond the surface layers, and that he did use literary devices in the book.

I disagree with many of his views. That alone cannot be a reason for me to dislike and dismiss the man, if I only read those whom I agree with, I risk becoming very close-minded indeed. When I've read his blog, I find he's bought into many weird theories and viewpoints. That makes me distrust him, but I don't really dislike him.

In the end, I have to say, I enjoy Ender's Game for what it is, and I find not an ounce of deception in the man. I don't think he's ever been anything but honest about what he thinks and feels.

In any case, I'm going to leave off with these words from his election-day entry:

I knew what she was talking about. That is universally the opinion of my friends -- no matter which candidate they're voting for. The ones who oppose Obama simply believe that McCain is a better choice. The ones who support Obama do so because of how they perceive his ideals, his character, or his platform -- again, the better choice.

My friends are all thoughtful citizens who cast their votes on the basis of criteria that transcend trivialities like race or gender.

There are surely people in this country who let the color of Obama's skin shape their perceptions -- either rejecting every bit of positive information about him, or rejecting every bit of negative information, because of his race.

There are always people who support or reject candidates for really dumb reasons. Yet still democracy muddles through.

I don't know how the election will come out, as I write this. But I do know that whoever wins, I'm prouder of my country than ever before, because a man with a black African-born father and a white American-born mother could seek and obtain a major party's nomination, and run a campaign that was either victorious or very, very close to being so.

And no matter how it comes out, I'm not moving to Canada. I'll be sticking around to keep on putting in my two cents' worth -- because that's what you do in a democracy. When the votes -- or the rules -- go against you, you swallow hard and vow to work harder next time.

I'd be a lot happier with our political process if more people thought like this, whether they agreed with me or not. That's why, despite myviews on his views I don't dislike him. And I do dislike so many others.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-11-04-1.html

 

[Dunstan]

This is getting off-topic, but Orson Scott Card isn't so fond of democracy as the above quote claims. The prospect of gay marriage is enough for him to advocate overthrowing the government.

How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.

Biological imperatives trump laws. American government cannot fight against marriage and hope to endure. If the Constitution is defined in such a way as to destroy the privileged position of marriage, it is that insane Constitution, not marriage, that will die.

Links to the original Card column seem to have gone dead, but it's quoted here

 

[Madalch]

Right now I'm reading Little Fuzzy by H. Beam Piper and thoroughly enjoying it. The story revolves around a race that is on the very border of sapience, and explores the subject quite well.

Oooh- I remember that series! Loved it!

Exteefee!

 

[Mar\/in]

In the fantasy vein I love Fritz Leiber and Michael Moorcock. (I think it's worth reading the old-timers just to know who the new guys are ripping off. For instance, I enjoyed American Gods but couldn't help thinking I'd read a version of that story before in Leiber's Swords and Ice Magic.) Try The Wanderer by Leiber for some old-school disaster-porn SF with a bit of kinky furry-love on the side. Moorcock's Stormbringer makes The One Ring look like a wuss.

Considering that P.G. Wodehouse's characters live in what might as well be a kind of fantasy-land, and considering how much he influences people like Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett and Charles Stross, it's probably worth reading him as well. (Well, he's worth reading regardless. Wodehouse is wonderful. But I think he's an important guy in a sneaky way in SF and fantasy, too.)

In SF I've recently discovered Samuel R. Delaney. Babel-17 is a wonderful book, and it seems to me to anticipate a lot of what's going on in Snow Crash. It's also that rare SF novel that includes poetry as a theme where the poetry doesn't completely suck ass.

I really enjoyed David Brin's Uplift series. Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire is good. Hal Clement's Half-Life (no relation to the video game) is brilliant and heartbreaking.

 

[RobRoy]

Moorcock's Stormbringer makes The One Ring look like a wuss.

Well, that what he tried to do. Considering how he wraps up the series, I'd say he failed utterly. But it was worthwhile to read the guy.

I really enjoyed David Brin's Uplift series. Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire is good. Hal Clement's Half-Life (no relation to the video game) is brilliant and heartbreaking.

Brin is very good, and carries a narrative extremely well. This isn't always the case in hard SF.

 

[Tyooby]

I've consistently heard good things about China Mieville. I may have to check him out.

I've started in Perdido Street Station and I like it, but my reading gets slowed down considerably because I have to look up a lot of words I've never seen before. English is not my first language (Dutch is), but usually I only have to look up words sporadically.

Here's my question for native english speakers: do you think even many native speakers have to look up a word every now and then, reading Mieville? In other words, does Mieville use an unusually broad vocabulary?

I'm especially curious about this since I'm trying to become proficient enough in English to write prose in this language, but I'm not sure how daunting this task is.

 

[GreyICE]

I've started in Perdido Street Station and I like it, but my reading gets slowed down considerably because I have to look up a lot of words I've never seen before. English is not my first language (Dutch is), but usually I only have to look up words sporadically.

Here's my question for native english speakers: do you think even many native speakers have to look up a word every now and then, reading Mieville? In other words, does Mieville use an unusually broad vocabulary?

I'm especially curious about this since I'm trying to become proficient enough in English to write prose in this language, but I'm not sure how daunting this task is.

I've had unfamiliar words, and my vocabulary is considered in the top 5%, easy (I'm not actually boasting here, I'm just stating facts).

He's not the easiest read in the world. But very good books.

 

[Tyooby]

I've had unfamiliar words, and my vocabulary is considered in the top 5%, easy (I'm not actually boasting here, I'm just stating facts).

He's not the easiest read in the world. But very good books.

Thanks GreyICE, glad to hear that!

 

[odorousrex]

I'd recommend The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick, or his collection of stories called The Dog Said Bow Wow.

They alternate between scifi AND fantasy in the same stories (you're head will spin the first time you read one of his stories (i.e. the witches perform and arcane healing ritual on our hero, placing poultices of mud on his wound and blowing mystic smoke over his body to lull him into a healing trance, and then inject 20cc's of aterphine to wake him up) hehe

He explores a lot of nihilistic themes though - not for everyone.

 

[Mar\/in]

Well, that what he tried to do. Considering how he wraps up the series, I'd say he failed utterly. But it was worthwhile to read the guy.

Hm, I think you're probably right. But I think the reason you're right has to do with the characters and not the object. Tolkien gives us a world of idealized friendships and near-ideal heroes which the Ring corrupts, and its horror is a function of the things it destroys. It represents a local aberration within a crypto-Christian universe that is designed to be beautiful and good.

Moorcock's characters aren't nearly as precious or compelling as individuals, and they live in a universe where beings like Stormbringer represent part of the infrastructure of reality itself. In the universe of Elric, if I remember correctly, the presence of Stormbringer and his kind turns out to be normal.

Dramatically, the Ring is more horrifying. (And LotR has a far more unified and coherent structure than the Elric stories.) But a universe in which Stormbringer and his kin are part of the management is a more dreadful existential prospect, I think.

 

[arthwollipot]

Hello there.

I've been looking for good books in my two favourite genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction, ever since I finished A Feast for Crows. I've been floundering between various short books for a few months now, and I want a weighty series to get my teeth into. The problem is that most of the new books coming out in those two genres tend to be multi 1000 page book epic series. So, I don't particularly want to invest a large amount of time testing one of these books if it turns out to be poor later on.

So, can you guys suggest any good series for me to check out? I'm open to any type of books set in those two genres. Additionally, does anyone know if a Rotten Tomatoes type site exists for novels? I would be very interested in looking at one. Thanks in advance.

There's one thing that's been nagging me about this thread. Exactly what do you mean by modern fantasy and SF? Last ten years? Twenty?

 

[Praktik]

I've started in Perdido Street Station and I like it, but my reading gets slowed down considerably because I have to look up a lot of words I've never seen before. English is not my first language (Dutch is), but usually I only have to look up words sporadically.

Here's my question for native english speakers: do you think even many native speakers have to look up a word every now and then, reading Mieville? In other words, does Mieville use an unusually broad vocabulary?

I'm especially curious about this since I'm trying to become proficient enough in English to write prose in this language, but I'm not sure how daunting this task is.

Ya - I think there were a few times I had to look something up - and like GreyICE my vocab is not too shabby either!

 

[Hastur]

No one's brought up Glen Cook's Black Company series? I read the North omni (the first 3 books) and I was impressed enough to think about getting the South omni.

 

[RobRoy]

Dramatically, the Ring is more horrifying. (And LotR has a far more unified and coherent structure than the Elric stories.) But a universe in which Stormbringer and his kin are part of the management is a more dreadful existential prospect, I think.

Only if you're from a universe that lacks Stormbringer and similar items. As you point out, they are a natural part of the structure of that narrative, and thus a general denizen is far more aware of the concept of corrupting influence and evil-incarnate. Whereas in Middle-Earth, the Ring and its kin are unnatural attempts to work on the natural world. They were rare in the extreme, exclusive to a very limited few, rather than the world in general. Introduction, or reintroduction, of the Rings of Power is what sets up the thousands of years of struggle and strife. Stormbringer, Elric, et.al were just natural extensions of their world.

 

[RobRoy]

No one's brought up Glen Cook's Black Company series? I read the North omni (the first 3 books) and I was impressed enough to think about getting the South omni.

I was in B&N this weekend and some them in an omnibus edition, but I wasn't certain if they were worth picking up. How do you rate them overall? Am I looking at George R.R. Martin depth and characterization, a popcorn David Gemmell hack-n-slash, or something inbetween?

 

[jimbob]

David Gemmel: he had one more plot than David Eddings...

 

[Madalch]

I was in B&N this weekend and some them in an omnibus edition, but I wasn't certain if they were worth picking up. How do you rate them overall? Am I looking at George R.R. Martin depth and characterization, a popcorn David Gemmell hack-n-slash, or something inbetween?

I read only the first one, and found it didn't appeal to me.

That was fifteen years ago, so don't ask me what I didn't like about it.

 

[RobRoy]

David Gemmel: he had one more plot than David Eddings...

Yeah, fantasy and awesomeness!

 

[Jason Smith]

I'd recommend The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick, or his collection of stories called The Dog Said Bow Wow.

They alternate between scifi AND fantasy in the same stories (you're head will spin the first time you read one of his stories (i.e. the witches perform and arcane healing ritual on our hero, placing poultices of mud on his wound and blowing mystic smoke over his body to lull him into a healing trance, and then inject 20cc's of aterphine to wake him up) hehe

He explores a lot of nihilistic themes though - not for everyone.

Seconded! Michael Swanwick is a very good science fiction/fantasy writer. If you're going to get into his short stories, and you should, also consider Tales of Old Earth and Gravity's Angels.

If you're in the mood for a novel, Iron Dragon's Daughter might not be the best place to start because it is very nihilistic. I humbly recommend Bones of the Earth -- A select group of paleontologists is given the opportunity to travel back in time to study dinosaurs first hand. The time travel technology is a gift from aliens from the future, who are using the gift as a method for studying humanity. The main villains are the creationists, who can't accept that time travel destroys their mythology. I'm not a big fan of time travel stories, but this one's pretty dang good.

Another good Swanwick novel is Jack Faust -- a retelling of the Faust story. In this verison, Faust is given unlimited knowledge, but nobody pays any attention until he finds military applications.

Iron Dragon's Daughter (and its sequel, The Dragons of Babel) do get major points because they turn a lot of fantasy sterotypes on their ear -- a society where all the elves are evil bastards. (If you have any D&D experience, all the elves are Drow who live above ground.)

Jason