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Berning down the house!

This is from the realm of vibes I pickup from the candidates. I don't have evidence. And to be clear, this has nothing to do with policy.

Bernie is the only Dem who I trust not to flinch in the face of Trump's antics. The flinch is a reflection of inner insecurity, when Trump touches a sore spot. One must be supremely confident to be a non-flincher.

For instance, being exposed as having lied can make a candidate flinch. Bernie impresses me as honest. I don't think he has lies on his resume. Another reason Bernie is a non-flincher is less admirable. He's a true believer -- an impenetrable ideologue.

Add unrelated thought: Bernie almost single-handed has caused the public option to become a mainstream concept, by having moved the whole conversation to the left. I appreciate that a lot.
 
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This is from the realm of vibes I pickup from the candidates. I don't have evidence. And to be clear, this has nothing to do with policy.

Bernie is the only Dem who I trust not to flinch in the face of Trump's antics. The flinch is a reflection of inner insecurity, when Trump touches a sore spot. One must be supremely confident to be a non-flincher.

For instance, being exposed as having lied can make a candidate flinch. Bernie impresses me as honest. I don't think he has lies on his resume. Another reason Bernie is a non-flincher is less admirable. He's a true believer -- an impenetrable ideologue.

Add unrelated thought: Bernie almost single-handed has caused the public option to become a mainstream concept, by having moved the whole conversation to the left. I appreciate that a lot.

Agreed.

It's hard to imagine the progressive shift of the Democratic party of the last few years happening without Bernie's very fierce advocacy during the last primary. He demonstrated that there is a very real hunger for that type of politics and dragged the entire party, kicking and screaming, to the left on many issues.

Neo-lib types often seem insecure, as you point out, because their policies often sit on the ideological fence. The precariousness this position is obvious. Bernie has no such problem, his platform is consistent and easily explained by his well established ideology.
 
Re: Sanders staying in the Democratic debates...
Why?

The debates are already overcrowded. Having people in the debates that won't win just makes it harder for other candidates to get their message out, as well as increasing the chance of politically damaging attacks against the eventual winner.

Plus there are other candidates occupying similar space on the political spectrum so its not like the far left will be ignored.

So you think it should just be Warren and Biden in the debates now?
Not necessarily. But I do think smaller debates would be more useful to the electorate since it will allow each candidate more time to promote their policies.

Now, I do recognize that there needs to be a balance, a need to be fair to lower ranked candidates vs. the need for more focused debates. Automatically reducing the field to the top 2 contenders seems to be going too far.
Yes he seems to be firmly entrenched in 3rd place.

I was under the impression from posts here that people thought Sanders should eventually drop out for the good of his health. If you think he should stay in and fight till the end, that's a different issue.

My question is "why stay i the debates" only applies in the situation where you might think he should eventually drop out but only after the debates have concluded.
And no, nobody else really occupies the same ideological space that Bernie "every billionaire is a policy failure" Sanders does. LOL
People may not have exactly the same policies as Sanders, but there are a lot of similarities with other Candidates For example, with Warren: Both want free college, increased taxes on the wealthy, and more corporate regulations. And Warren did co-sponsor Sander's health care bill (even if she's less inclined to support his "eliminate private insurance" policy).
 
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This happens every election. The internet gets itself worked into a frenzy over some outside the mainstream darkhorse candidate, they convince themselves he can win, make up all sorts of conspiracy theories about why he didn't, wash, rinse, repeat.

Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul, kinda of Ralph Nader, (arguably) Bat Buchanan, hell Ross Perot was almost like a weird, proto-version of it.

And the idea that Bernie Sanders lost the election for Clinton is laughable. He came in behind Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Evan McMullin, and Darrel Castle and as always everyone was running a distant second to perennial write in favorite "Did Note Vote" who has held every elected office in America since forever.

He was tanked by Clinton before the election, Clinton lost on her own baggage and russian mischief.
And Bengazi Toilet Servers
 
Argumentum ad neenerum. Highly unimpressive.

Consider the position you're staking out here. An anonymous person (Anon1) purportedly posted something on the internet, according to another anonymous person on the internet (Anon2) and you consider it meaningful!? Even though you don't actually know what was purportedly posted.

You're hanging your hat on a vague anecdote twice removed.

Basic rule to remember about the Internet:
Any idiot or kook can post crap on the interenet.
And every idiot or kook does.
The late Harlan Ellison said the Internet is not the information superhighway but the biggest unsupervised Insane Asylum in the history of mankind.
 
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Why?

The debates are already overcrowded. Having people in the debates that won't win just makes it harder for other candidates to get their message out, as well as increasing the chance of politically damaging attacks against the eventual winner.

Plus there are other candidates occupying similar space on the political spectrum so its not like the far left will be ignored.

Sent from my LG-K121 using Tapatalk

These debates are a joke, IMHO.
No real exchange of ideas, just talking points.
Hell, even just five is probably too much for a reasonable debate,as the Candian debate showed....
 
Never mind the polling numbers. Regardless of where a candidate stands in the polls, if/when they have zero chance of being POTUS, that's when it's time to leave the stage. As of the heart attack, Bernie has zero chance. And most critically, his views are pretty well represented by Warren. Not exact but close enough.

I actuallh think the differences between Warren and Sanders are more of style then substance.
And IMHO, this is to Warren's advantage. Sanders, even without the Health issue (which I note the Bernie Bros are trying to hand wave away) has an image problem when it comes to the General election:he just comes off as the classic aging Sixties radical who can never quite leave the Sixties behing. Yes, this appeals to the more militant progressive wing of the party, but is a turn off to a lot of moderates.
Warren has a more mainstream approach, I think she can sell herself to the moderates and centrists the Dems will need to win..they can't do it on the base alonte...not sure Bernie could ever do that.
And, yes, style is important in elections.
 
Not necessarily. But I do think smaller debates would be more useful to the electorate since it will allow each candidate more time to promote their policies.

Now, I do recognize that there needs to be a balance, a need to be fair to lower ranked candidates vs. the need for more focused debates. Automatically reducing the field to the top 2 contenders seems to be going too far.

Yes he seems to be firmly entrenched in 3rd place.

I was under the impression from posts here that people thought Sanders should eventually drop out for the good of his health. If you think he should stay in and fight till the end, that's a different issue.

My question is "why stay i the debates" only applies in the situation where you might think he should eventually drop out but only after the debates have concluded.

People may not have exactly the same policies as Sanders, but there are a lot of similarities with other Candidates For example, with Warren: Both want free college, increased taxes on the wealthy, and more corporate regulations. And Warren did co-sponsor Sander's health care bill (even if she's less inclined to support his "eliminate private insurance" policy).

I think he should eventually drop out to endorse Warren, not for the good of his health.

I think his health is basically fine, now that he's had the procedure.

Sanders and Warren do share policies more or less, but the underlying ideology is significantly different. They have different primary reasonings behind the policies.

Liz really does see debt peonage and monopolistic economic rent-seeking as an overall economic drag on the nation, whereas for Bernie, it's 100% a matter of morality, right and wrong, and justice.
 
I think he should eventually drop out to endorse Warren, not for the good of his health.

I think his health is basically fine, now that he's had the procedure.

Sanders and Warren do share policies more or less, but the underlying ideology is significantly different. They have different primary reasonings behind the policies.

Liz really does see debt peonage and monopolistic economic rent-seeking as an overall economic drag on the nation, whereas for Bernie, it's 100% a matter of morality, right and wrong, and justice.

I fear if Warren gets the nomination, the Jacobin and CounterPunch watchers will abandon the election. I could be stuck in the social media bubble but I hope they are relatively few in number!
 
I fear if Warren gets the nomination, the Jacobin and CounterPunch watchers will abandon the election. I could be stuck in the social media bubble but I hope they are relatively few in number!

The uber extreme hardliners really aren't that many in number. Waaay more leftwingers couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton, and over 80% of Bernie's 2016 voters voted for Clinton.

Especially if Bernie drops out early enough to give Liz a convincing and really enthusiastic endorsement. Which I'm pretty sure he will.
 
For anybody thinking Warren should be good-enough substitute for Bernie to Bernie fans: Kyle Kulinski (Secular Talk on YouTube) collected some differences between them here.


She is not in favor of eliminating medical debt or all educational debt.

She was in favor of approving Ben Carson... then flipped under pressure.

She admitted that the DNC had rigged 2016 against Bernie... then flipped under pressure.

Speaking of 2016: she refused to officially endorse Bernie despite being in theory more like him than Hillary on policies, so that decision was some kind of machiavellian calculation, rather than a stance on policy principles. (Some say Hillary got her to do that by saying she'd appoint her to something if she won, but somebody more principled or less gullible & pressurable wouldn't have fallen for that.)

She's an obstacle to universal single-payer medical coverage. Yes, she now claims to be for it, most of the time, but that's just another of her flips under pressure. Her original spiel, from before detecting how hard the wind was blowing that way, and which still does accidentally sneak out in bits & pieces from time to time, was wafflier than Waffle House on a Sunday morning, full of blather about how all of the Democrats' proposals are essentially the same and how the ones that are based on and framed in Republican talking points are just as good as long as they now come from "Democrats"... trying to sound like she might be in favor of whatever anybody listening might want.

She keeps voting for the always-increasing military budgets, including the latest one that shoveled even more money at it than Trump had asked for.

She takes donations from military contractors while saying practically nothing about changing any part of the Bush-Obama-Trump military behavior. (KK says she's also done "favors" for them, but doesn't specify what those were, beyond throwing lots of tax money back at them and staying silent on their neverending foreign intrusions, as stated above.)

She said at first that she'd refuse big-donor money like that for the primary season but accept it in the general election. This is inherently hypocritical already (because if you accept the principle against it, which is that it's a corrupting influence and a corrupt system, then taking it sometimes is openly participating in the corruption sometimes), but there's more: she then got caught sneaking big-donor money into her primary campaign budget too.

When she had an interview in which the interviewer mentioned the progressive movement's challenge against corrupt DINOs like Joe Manchin, she felt compelled to give a "spirited defense" of Manchin. (KK used this as an example of her adopting the language of party unity and bipartisanship rather than treating opponents as opponents who need to be defeated for the good of the country & people, but didn't give more examples.)

Finally, although she does have policy proposals that address certain aspects of the class struggle, KK says she doesn't push the subject as often or as forcefully or in as much of the right kind of elitists-vs-the-rest-of-us framing like Bernie does, so, no matter how good those proposals might be, she's not enough of an advocate for them or for the general principle driving them, helping to push the national conversation in the direction that would make such policies more likely to pass and their supporters more likely to get elected. (I can't really say I'm quite with him on this one; I'm sure one could find examples of her sounding weak & waffly or even evasive or contradictory to such ideas & framing on certain occasions, and I'm sure the opposite could be found too, but I can't say it goes one way or the other as a dominant trend of hers... other than by comparison to someone as all-out as Bernie is about it... but the comparison is still valid in a way... just mainly because Bernie is Bernie, rather than because Betty is Betty.)
 
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Seriously? You're claiming the woman is only a second, only a substitute for the man? She doesn't really have any accomplishments of her own. We can only compare her to Sanders?

Warning, this will piss people off:
Go **** yourselves. What is wrong with people they can't just compare candidates and their platforms without this nonsense of how Warren measures up to King Bernie?
 
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I'm going to put the last quote at the beginning, and modify it a bit to make it a more level-headed, less how-dare-you-think-differently-from-me version of itself:
What is wrong with people they can't just compare candidates and their platforms without this nonsense of how Warren measures up to King Bernie?
Take a moment to put yourself in the position of someone who would have written something like that, which just looks at the facts at hand, without looking for something to fling at somebody or drool on. Does it really, actually fit together & make sense to you? I don't see how it possibly can.

You saw somebody making a comparison between candidates & their platforms, and responded to that by lamenting the fact that people don't compare candidates & platforms without (this nonsense of) comparing the candidates & platforms.

Can you explain how what you're responding to did not already meet the request you made in the first not-scratched-through part in the quote box? Can you explain how the two separate not-scratched-through parts of the quote can possibly, even hypothetically, be compatible with each other at all? Or will we just get another round of "HE NOT LIKE WHO GINGER LIKE! GGHHRAAAWRR GINGER SMAAASH (keyboard)!!!!!!!"

You're claiming the woman is only a second, only a substitute for the man?
From the point-of-view of fans of his, as discussed in a thread about him, yes. That's how preferences work: alternatives to the preferred choice are... not the preferred choice. I'm saving money up for a Ford Ranger. I suppose I could get a Chevrolet Colorado instead, but I'd rather get a Ranger.

I'm quite certain that you've known this all along, because everybody does and it wouldn't be possible for a functioning human not to. Why pretend to only just now be discovering this? Could it have anything to do with having a preference of your own, which itself would be proof that you're already aware that preferences are prefences? (And not being particularly emotionally well-equipped to handle people having different preferences from yours)

She doesn't really have any accomplishments of her own.
Now would be a good time to point out the quote in which that is claimed. Failure to do so will equal admission that you made it up from nothing but your own paranoid imagination. (And while you're at it, now would also be a good time to back up the accusation of sexism that you built in to the first quote, and failure to do so will also equal admission of the equivalent behavior on that subject, too.)

We can only compare her to Sanders?
Again, as you surely already know and there's no sense in pretending not to, that's just how political choices work, and also how "spectrums/spectra" work: politicians get compared with each other, and whoever/whatever is the farthest in one direction or another on a spectrum becomes a measuring point for others that/who aren't as far in that direction to be compared with. Whichever compact/midiszed pickup truck has the most towing capacity in that class, the rest all have less towing capacity than that.
 
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