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Berning down the house!

Segnosaur said:
Minor nitpick:

At the time of the civil war, the Union had a population of ~22 million, the Confederate states ~9 million (non-slaves). So while a bunch of states did secede, it was far less than half (both in number of citizens and in actual number of states.)

Also, it should be noted that not all of the people in the confederate states would have supported seceding. Many might have preferred to stay in the union.
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People in western Virginia, for example. But we can probably put a fork in this sidebar, since Donal has clarified that "most despised candidate of all time" wasn't a point he was trying to make, wasn't intended to support any argument, and isn't a claim he wishes to defend. Not sure why he even posted it to begin with, but whatever.
 
Donal said:
You know what didn't happen in 2016? Centrist Democrat who isolated herself with high priced consultants winning the presidency against the most despised candidate of all time.

The Dems could put Bill flippin' Gates on the ticket and Stupid will still scream socialism at every opportunity. And the press will treat it as a serious discussion.

Because, hold on to your hat, the Republicans are not interested in factual, policy driven discussions. I know, shocking.

So acting like any sort of good faith discussion is going to happen with Stupid (or whoever the GOP runs) is a hindrance. Instead of bending over backwards to try and find someone who can't be attacked, go with someone who is assertive, has real policies to drive, and can actually excite someone other than a CNN/MSNBC talking head. Go with someone who won't flinch when some goofy nickname or conspiracy theory gets thrown at them.
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It's a given the GOP is out to brand the Democratic Party as socialist. They began that a few years ago after the word 'liberal' ceased to have the level of negative connotation desired.

Doesn't mean they are or that they'll elect Bernie in the primary.

I get it all the sour grapes about Bernie makes it look like this is the chance to right a wrong, but he's not the right candidate and neither is Biden. The Democratic Party needs a rising star, not a stale one.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It's a given the GOP is out to brand the Democratic Party as socialist. They began that a few years ago after the word 'liberal' ceased to have the level of negative connotation desired.
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Great, so we don't need to take them into account

Doesn't mean they are or that they'll elect Bernie in the primary.
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Of course not. My point is don't let their rhetoric drive the conversation. Fearing the mean things the Republicans will say is not a good strategy for choosing a candidate.

I get it all the sour grapes about Bernie makes it look like this is the chance to right a wrong,
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Or move beyond a strategy that not only fails, actually helps cause long term damage.

but he's not the right candidate and neither is Biden. The Democratic Party needs a rising star, not a stale one.
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I'm inclined to agree with you here.
 
I wonder if the OP will become a die hard supporter of Bernie, and them denounce him because they disagree on a single issue, as in the last election.
And Bernie is just too old for the job, to be frank. Let's not pretend his age and health will not matter.
 
And I see the lost tribe beleivers are out in force.
They are greatly over estimating the number of "progressive" voters in the US. Ideologues tend to do that.
And last time Bernie was pretty much the only lefty horse in the race. That won't happen next time.
If Bernie gets the nomination, Trump will be reelected.
 
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//slight hijack//

This all I think, ties back to one of the most basic questions of democracy.

Which is the better result, the most possible people getting their ideal candidate or the most possible people getting an acceptable candidate?

Let's do a little thought experiment. Let's rewind the clock back to election night 2016 and have the election again. But the ballot is different this time. Trump, Clinton, Sanders, Stein, Johnson the same names are on there but the question asked is "Which of these candidates would be an acceptable President of the United States? (Check All the Apply)" And for the sake of it let's say most people are at least trying to answer the question honestly, or at least as honestly as they vote in traditional elections.

Who would have won? It's a tricky question I think. My gut tells me it would have been Clinton but I can imagine non-crazy scenarios where one of the dark horse candidates would have taken it if the question was being asked in that way.
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More directly on topic I agree that the Dems desperately need a fresh face. Nobody "known."
 
JoeMorgue said:
//slight hijack//

This all I think, ties back to one of the most basic questions of democracy.

Which is the better result, the most possible people getting their ideal candidate or the most possible people getting an acceptable candidate?

Let's do a little thought experiment. Let's rewind the clock back to election night 2016 and have the election again. But the ballot is different this time. Trump, Clinton, Sanders, Stein, Johnson the same names are on there but the question asked is "Which of these candidates would be an acceptable President of the United States? (Check All the Apply)" And for the sake of it let's say most people are at least trying to answer the question honestly, or at least as honestly as they vote in traditional elections.

Who would have won? It's a tricky question I think. My gut tells me it would have been Clinton but I can imagine non-crazy scenarios where one of the dark horse candidates would have taken it if the question was being asked in that way.
________________________________________

More directly on topic I agree that the Dems desperately need a fresh face. Nobody "known."
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And that some of our most hard core GOP supporters seem to support Bernie getting the nomination should tell you something.
 
And if Bernie gets the nomination, you can bet there will be a big name running as an independent Centrist ,splitting the anti Trump vote.
 
dudalb said:
And that some of our most hard core GOP supporters seem to support Bernie getting the nomination should tell you something.
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Well that's the poison that is first past the post voting. 3rd party votes aren't only meaningless, they are counter productive.

Everyone has to vote strategically, second and third and forth guessing every other person's hypothetical vote. There's almost no honest voting going on because you can't.
 
Minoosh said:
In terms of winning a nation election, yeah I'm sure Bernie is not mainstream enough.
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The problem with a lot of political ideologues,is that they spend most of their time with other ideolgues, and get a skewed vision of the world.
 
dudalb said:
The problem with a lot of political ideologues,is that they spend most of their time with other ideolgues, and get a skewed vision of the world.
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"Our brains only have one scale, and we resize our experience to fit it."
 
ANd he is 77 years old. Sorry, but his age and health have got to be a big consideration when you consider just how much pressure the job of POTUS is. He might be in good health for a man 77 years old,but sorry, IMHO that is just too old for the presidency. I would say there would be good chance he would not finish his first term.
 
And, I repeat, the whole "Bernie Is Our Savior" cult turns me off big time. I have had enough of Polticial Saviors and their cult to last for a long time.
 
dudalb said:
ANd he is 77 years old. Sorry, but his age and health have got to be a big consideration when you consider just how much pressure the job of POTUS is. He might be in good health for a man 77 years old,but sorry, IMHO that is just too old for the presidency. I would say there would be good chance he would not finish his first term.
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Confession. I don't want old people in politics because I don't want people in office who's "future" can't go past the next 30-40 years.

I want people who are going to have to live with the consequences of the decision they make.
 
dudalb said:
And if Bernie gets the nomination, you can bet there will be a big name running as an independent Centrist ,splitting the anti Trump vote.
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I wouldn't be so sure. Anyone running third party would be forever castigated as The Great Spoiler. I would think such a person would be a persona non grata in the Democratic party.
 
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