Bermuda Triangle Theories

[screensnot]

I just watched a show called Dive to the Bermuda Triangle on The Discovery Channel. I noticed what I believe to be a huge error in their logic. I figured a google search would turn up plenty of physicists lambasting them for the error, but only found many people regurgitating the same BS. So, I decided to come back here, where I figure there are a fair amount of intelligent people, who would either confirm my opinion, or correct me.

The show put forth the theory that methane releases from the sea bed could be responsible for lost ships/planes.

A good part of the show was dedicated to the effect the methane would have on a plane's altimeter. They claimed that since the methane is less dense than air, a "methane cloud" would be at a lower pressure than the surrounding air. And since altimeters merely measure air pressure, a plane flying into a "methane cloud" would cause it's altimeter to show that the plane was climbing, even though the plane was flying level. Then a pilot may be tricked into diving in order to maintain level flight.

I say that methane released into the atmosphere will quickly equalize with the surrounding air pressure, and be exactly the same. Less dense does not necessarily mean lower pressure.

On the show, they went so far as to put some pilots in a 747 simulator and fly them into a simulated methane cloud. To simulate the methane they simply changed the outside air pressure, which, of course, made the altimeter show they were gaining altitude, while the pilot pointed the nose toward the ocean.

Also, they tested to see how much methane in the air would be needed to stall a radial piston airplane engine. Their answer was less than 1%. This goes against all my experience with internal combustion engines. A stoichiometric mixture is 14.7 lbs of air to 1 lb of gasoline. But, a typical engine (in a car anyway) usually makes peak power when you lower that something like 12:1, and it will still run below 10:1.

I figure they either made an error in their calcs, or had the engine running way rich to begin with. Their setup seemed less than scientific, with just a large tank of methane piped to the air intake of the engine. They were simply cracking open a ball valve, little by little, until the engine stalled. I didn't notice any flow meters, or any other way to determine how much flow of methane there was (although that doesn't mean there wasn't).

Anyway, can anyone confirm that methane released into the atmosphere would indeed be at the same pressure as the atmosphere? Or am I missing something?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

. . .

Anyway, can anyone confirm that methane released into the atmosphere would indeed be at the same pressure as the atmosphere? Or am I missing something?

Yes it would have to be. If you think of it as a "bubble", it's easy to see that the pressure inside the bubble will create a force and the bubble will expand until the forces inside and outside are equal as will be the pressure.

As far as the rest of the "science" in the show. Why did they even bother? From my memory the conditions the pilots reported are exactly what you would expect if they were flying into a setting Sun, over an ocean and away from their base. I don't really have the inclination to search for the exact words right now but I will if pushed.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the bigger problem is that they're looking to explain a phenomenon that doesn't even exist. There are no more missing boats and planes in the Bermuda Triangle than any other area with comparable traffic. And those that "disappear" do so because they sink.

 

[Macoy]

it's to do with the evapouration of hydrated methane deposits. if one is unlucky enough to be above such an event, then one's yacht will lose buoyancy.

 

[screensnot]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Gord, I was having a hard time believing that I'd forgotten even the most basic principles that I learned in HS Physics. I guess those guys didn't bother with any physics classes. I would have guessed that 747 pilots would be required to take some physics classes, but they were only flying a sim. Maybe they were only student pilots, and hadn't got to the physics part.

Macoy, I can see how the methane bubbles could sink a ship. The amount of bubbles that it took to sink their scale model was tremendous, but at least it's physically possible.

Joe, without even checking to see if the stats support your statements that the frequency of missing boats/planes in the triangle is NOT higher, I'll take that as the most likely explanation (boats/planes just disappear sometimes - triangle or not).

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

it's to do with the evapouration of hydrated methane deposits. if one is unlucky enough to be above such an event, then one's yacht will lose buoyancy.

But surely the monstrous up rush of the methane will lift the yacht right out of the water?

 

[Iamme]

I thought that one of the big factors that affected plane disappearances was that there was something weird there in compass readings due to the way the magnetic flow happens to come out of the earth in that area (sometimes?). Therefore the pilots would become lost and run out of fuel heading back out to sea when they were really on their way to the east coast somewhere.

Didn't Mythbusters perform the air bubble from the ocean floor theory experiment, once?...in trying to see if they could sink a boat?

 

[MG1962]

I thought that one of the big factors that affected plane disappearances was that there was something weird there in compass readings due to the way the magnetic flow happens to come out of the earth in that area (sometimes?). Therefore the pilots would become lost and run out of fuel heading back out to sea when they were really on their way to the east coast somewhere.

I believe you may be refering to Flight 19 - This was actually tragic, because the leader of the flight thought his compass was shot, when in fact it was operating fine. He didn't trust his instruments, and tried to fly by landmarks (Island etc)

He decided he was south and to the west of Florida, and elected to turn his flight to the north east. The problem was he was actually East and a little south of Florida, hence he flew his group of planes into the Atlantic ocean.

 

[I less than three logic]

Didn't Mythbusters perform the air bubble from the ocean floor theory experiment, once?...in trying to see if they could sink a boat?

I closest episode to this that I remember was where they were testing a myth on waterfalls about the buoyancy of the turbulent water below them. First they dumped the water on top of them. The person sank, but they weren't sure if the falling water pushed them down or if the water under them lost buoyancy. So, they introduced air bubbles from the bottom of the tank to reproduce the turbulence, and the person sank again. Water with a lot of air bubbles just isn't as dense so it provides less buoyancy.

I don't remember any episodes where they tried this with a boat, but that sure doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

[Hokulele]

I closest episode to this that I remember was where they were testing a myth on waterfalls about the buoyancy of the turbulent water below them. First they dumped the water on top of them. The person sank, but they weren't sure if the falling water pushed them down or if the water under them lost buoyancy. So, they introduced air bubbles from the bottom of the tank to reproduce the turbulence, and the person sank again. Water with a lot of air bubbles just isn't as dense so it provides less buoyancy.

I don't remember any episodes where they tried this with a boat, but that sure doesn't mean there isn't one.

I am a surfer, and I can guarantee that water full of bubbles is not buoyant at all. When a very large wave breaks and rolls through, it leaves a lot of bubbles and other turbulence in its wake. When this happens, a surfer will dive under the oncoming wave (known as "duck-diving"). Once the wave has passed over, it is very difficult to keep oriented, you do not float up to the surface, although you can still swim, sort of, and many surfers have actually swum for the bottom thinking they were going to surface. The rule of thumb when caught in turbulence and bubbles is to follow your leash up to your surfboard, which tends to float better than you do, and will typically be closer to the surface than you are.

 

[screensnot]

Yes, Mythbusters did sink a boat by blowing bubbles up from underneath it.

That was the one theory that Dive to the Bermuda Triangle talked about, and I find plausible.

 

[Beady]

That was the one theory that Dive to the Bermuda Triangle talked about, and I find plausible.

Maybe the theory is plausible, maybe not. However, the Triangle is not. The simple fact is, you stand more chance of disappearing without a trace over the continental United States than you do in the Triangle (here, around Burlington, VT, they still haven't found a couple of planes that went down within the last five years or so).

Another aspect of the Triangle, it encompasses a convergence of an extremely high number of air and sea routes. Of course there are going to be a high number of crashes and sinkings, simply because of the volume of traffic, and a proportionate number of those will be disappearances. See for yourself: Take a map of the Atlantic and draw lines connecting the English Channel, Cape of Good Hope, and Gibralter with New York, Miami and the Panama Canal. How many of those lines go through the various definitions of the Triangle?

 

[EternalSceptic]

Maybe the theory is plausible, maybe not. However, the Triangle is not. The simple fact is, you stand more chance of disappearing without a trace over the continental United States than you do in the Triangle (here, around Burlington, VT, they still haven't found a couple of planes that went down within the last five years or so).

Another aspect of the Triangle, it encompasses a convergence of an extremely high number of air and sea routes. Of course there are going to be a high number of crashes and sinkings, simply because of the volume of traffic, and a proportionate number of those will be disappearances. See for yourself: Take a map of the Atlantic and draw lines connecting the English Channel, Cape of Good Hope, and Gibralter with New York, Miami and the Panama Canal. How many of those lines go through the various definitions of the Triangle?

IMO ther is one special thing with the triangle, but a totally natural one: It is the gulf stream, _very_ wide, over 100 meters deep and at the speed of a river, ant it is flowing over the edge of the shelf in this area. This is a tremendous amount of water per second, there are borders between warmer and cooler water etc. If you ever have been swimming in larger river (danube for example) you will know what turbulences in the water are caused by grooves at the bottom. Multiply that by several thousands and a lot of spectacular things might happen.

Just my $0.02

 

[Bikewer]

Way back when the first "triangle" book came out (Berlitz?), it was shown subsequently that it was filled with distortions, inaccuracies, and outright lies.

Many ships listed as lost or sunk were found to have been sold and renamed.
Sinkings that occurred well outside the "triangle" were included in the author's figures, and some were simply made up.

 

[screensnot]

Maybe the theory is plausible, maybe not. However, the Triangle is not. [snip]

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'plausible'. I should have said 'possible'.

I am not trying to say that there is any kind of woo going on there. I really just wanted confirmation that methane gas in the atmosphere does not cause any kind of low pressure area.

I was watching the show with a friend, and was bashing the so call investigators for making such a ludicrous statement. My friend kept saying things like, "So, you think you are smarter than these scientists, huh?" Then, when I went to the internet for evidence to back myself up, all I found were people regurgitating the same BS that the "investigators" had said. My friend went home thinking I am an idiot.

I am not saying that you can't debunk the Bermuda Triangle here, just that you are preaching to the choir. I don't believe there is any kind of paranormal activity going on there.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Way back when the first "triangle" book came out (Berlitz?), it was shown subsequently that it was filled with distortions, inaccuracies, and outright lies.

Many ships listed as lost or sunk were found to have been sold and renamed.
Sinkings that occurred well outside the "triangle" were included in the author's figures, and some were simply made up.

The seminal response to the BM "mystery" is Bermuda Triangle: Solved by Lawrence Kusche. Having read it when it was published in 1957 I have not lent once pennyworth of credence to the Triangle stories since.

 

[MG1962]

The seminal response to the BM "mystery" is Bermuda Triangle: Solved by Lawrence Kusche. Having read it when it was published in 1957 I have not lent once pennyworth of credence to the Triangle stories since.

Is that book that old???? I found it in the 70's To this day the only thing that would need to be changed is the locating of the Cyclops wreckage, which turned out not to be too far from where the author said.

I was such a Bemuda Triangle nut till I read that book. Honestly say it changed my life. When in doubt (Like he did) Go to orginal sources

 

[Beady]

Multiply that by several thousands and a lot of spectacular things might happen.

"Different," I would agree to; ""spectacular," no.

The only plausible story I've heard about the Gulf Stream is that Benjamin Franklin was one of the first to tumble to its existence, and used the knowledge clandestinely to route shipping between Europe and America during the American Revolution.

 

[casebro]

That, and there is only one report of anybody ever seeing a natural bubbling from the sea. And it did NOT sink the ship. If it had happened often enough to have sunk hundreds of ships, there should have been thousands of sightings.

I have a problem with the methane gas theory. At the depth of the ocean bottom, the water pressure is so great that the methane would be a liquid, and get forced into solution with the water. Ok, so if the water rose up, the gas would re-evaporate, but since it was dispersed in the water, it wouldn't happen as one big bunch of bubbles.

This would be related to the reason deep divers use helium- at those pressures, nitrogen gets forced into the blood as a dissolved substance, but when it comes out later as bubbles it causes damage- after the diver swims to the surface.

Now I guess if the methane was released in some kind of heated phennomenon, it wouldn't stay so dissolved in hot water. But then, nobody ever saw any boiling hot water reach the surface either. Except from undersea volcanoes, which don't happen off Bermuda. And, planes do fly above volcanoes too. And, undersea volcanoes smoke too. Hmm, wouldnt an undersea release of methane also entail the release of other stuff? Even mud would get carried tot he surface in the ensuing caldron.

 

[Beady]

Yeah, I've heard the methane bubble story, and I just don't buy it. The same skeptical questions apply: Where are the headlines? Where are the scholarly articles in peer-reviewed journals? Where are the programs on cable TV? Where are the research grants? In this particular case, Where are the navigation warnings to mariners? I can't argue the technical aspects of the supposed phenomenon, itself, but I can wonder about all this other stuff.

Or is this evidence of yet another NWO conspiracy to hush-up alien visitations?