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Bermuda Triangle - new "methane bubble" twist?

Huntsman said:

I am beginning to strongly suspect that no one reads my posts.

*sigh*

I had a source and everything.
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I did read your post Huntsman, I just quoted the most recent one after I confirmed my mistake. You were the first to correct me.

And for the record, I think the spider is really cool.
 
Tricky said:

Yeah, I am humiliated. Damned sloppy on my part.
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Easy mistake to make, especially when arguing quickly.

Speaking of which, in my last post on the first page, I didn't quite make my concept clear. I was thinking that currents affect the planes while they are sinking, but not after they hit the bottem. Does anyone know where to get good current maps for that area? We could at least get a general idea if that's possible.

Of course, I think the pilots of these planes were rescued (or most, anyway). They reported engine failures (engine simply died). Which brings another question...anyone know where to get copies of the crash reports from the Navy?
 
Huntsman said:


Easy mistake to make, especially when arguing quickly.

Speaking of which, in my last post on the first page, I didn't quite make my concept clear. I was thinking that currents affect the planes while they are sinking, but not after they hit the bottem. Does anyone know where to get good current maps for that area? We could at least get a general idea if that's possible.

Of course, I think the pilots of these planes were rescued (or most, anyway). They reported engine failures (engine simply died). Which brings another question...anyone know where to get copies of the crash reports from the Navy?
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Which planes? Certainly not Flight 19...

And by the way, I like the spider too (he admits, grudgingly).
 
Nigel said:

Which planes? Certainly not Flight 19...

And by the way, I like the spider too (he admits, grudgingly).
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*sigh*

From the Discovery show. The guy found 5 Avengers within 1.5 miles of each other, 12 miles east of Ft. Lauderdale. They were not Flight 19. Going by tail numbers and crash reports, all 5 planes crashed in that same patch of ocean on seperate dates, ranging from 1941 to 1943 or 45. Further description is available on several of my posts on the first page :)
 
Tricky said:
And for the record, I think the spider is really cool.
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Edited to add:

Although I thought it was a crab at first. Some of them are pretty furry too, although not this guy:
 
I might be wrong but I recall that the debris field for Titanic was a couple of miles long. I would guess that something aerodynamic like a plane would take a good long while to sink. Do you happen to have the longitude and latitude of the Avengers? My father in law is an old salt and sails the Jupiter/Bimini run a couple of times a year (at age 87 you whippersnappers) and has been doing it for ages so he might have some thoughts on the matter.
 
Huntsman said:
They reported engine failures (engine simply died). Which brings another question...anyone know where to get copies of the crash reports from the Navy?
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I think they said two of the five were reported as engine failures. They also did an interesting test with a vintage radial aircraft engine and found that an atmospheric methane concentration of merely 1% would cause the engine to die. With the same engine they showed that there was no feasible way for methane to ignite in the vicinity of the engine. As an aside, I think that's why I liked the show more than I thought I would: some tests validated ideas, other tests invalidated ideas. It gave the sense of real investigation, rather than a demonstration of a predetermined conclusion.

Anyone know if a 1% methane concentration is feasible? I'm sure this would depend a lot on altitude of course. I think they used 1000 feet as their baseline, but that sure seems low to me. Of course these were low level attack planes, so I really dunno. As you say, crash reports would make an interesting read.

In any case, I have to completely agree with the statement made once or twice on the show that the 'mystery' of Flight 19 can be put to bed, but that the 5 'new' Avengers present an even more compelling mystery. Okay, just had to pipe in, now back to my regularly scheduled crippling workload...
 
Ed:

All I remember from the show is them saying they were 12 miles east of Ft. Lauderdale.

I found this:
E Fort Lauderdale 26° 4' N 80° 9' W

From what I can see on the net of longitude to distance conversions, that should put the planes at about 26° 4' N 79° 59' W. Understand that this is a back-of-the-envelope calculation, I am by no means familiar with this :)
 
Huntsman said:


*sigh*

From the Discovery show. The guy found 5 Avengers within 1.5 miles of each other, 12 miles east of Ft. Lauderdale. They were not Flight 19. Going by tail numbers and crash reports, all 5 planes crashed in that same patch of ocean on seperate dates, ranging from 1941 to 1943 or 45. Further description is available on several of my posts on the first page :)
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don't sigh at me, Huntsman....I read your posts. Most of the day when I'm on here, I'm at work, and distracted. Now take that sigh back. And I remember clearly the first time round when those planes were discovered. I'm only glad the media didn't drop it then, because they followed up with the fact that it wasn't Flight 19. What's the spidey's name, so at least when I say he's cute, I can say, "I like Boris. He's cute."
edit for typos
 
Alright, alright, I take back the sigh :P

Oh, and I did find a link to Navy serials, that at least gives some indication of what happened to the planes.

Navy Serials

I'll try and catch the show again, I know they give at least one of the BuNos, maybe more. They do give the crash dates, which I can use to search these lists for the BuNos. With the numbers, I might be able to use a FOIA to get copies of the crash reports.

You know, I never thought to give him a name. Hmmm, he is a jumping spider...how about Twitch?
 
According to Kusche, the last known position of Flight 19 (calculated at 5:50 pm) was 29 deg 15' N 79 deg 00' W, east of central Fla and not far from Georgia.
 
Tricky wrote:
Some of them are pretty furry too, although not this guy:
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That looks like an emerald crab to me.A saltwater alge eater.Does he live in a tank of your's?
 
I'd like to see what you come up with re the serials. hell, maybe someone here can solve the problem of the new planes down there. Given what Kusche has said, i think they're looking in the wrong spot for Taylor et al.

Twitch the Spider. Hmmmm.....
 
Huntsman said:
Five planes, five seperate incidents, and all ended up within 1.5 miles of each other on the ocean floor. This is, to say the least, highly unlikely.
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Could be they all crashed during training accidents. There's a bunch of WWII aircraft at the bottom of Lake Michigan, they would convert a barge into a simulated aircraft carrier and anchor it to practice carrier landings. So misses would end up near easch other.
 
FutileJester said:

Anyone know if a 1% methane concentration is feasible? I'm sure this would depend a lot on altitude of course. I think they used 1000 feet as their baseline, but that sure seems low to me. Of course these were low level attack planes, so I really dunno. As you say, crash reports would make an interesting read.
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Just for kicks, I started to try to calculate this (using my now 10-year-old college chemistry skills and somewhat older textbook), and gave up when the numbers started getting ridiculous.

Now, this is very handwavy, but if you think about it, you'd need enough methane to have made a 1% concentration on a _LARGE_ area.

- stormy conditions indicate that there was massive airflow in the region
- at even 1000 feet, the methane would have dispersed a great deal
- it there was enough methane to trigger a 1% concentration at that height, it _would_ have been noticed - the human nose can detect methane at concentrations _FAR_ below that.


(First post, by the way.)
 
jpublic said:


Just for kicks, I started to try to calculate this (using my now 10-year-old college chemistry skills and somewhat older textbook), and gave up when the numbers started getting ridiculous.

Now, this is very handwavy, but if you think about it, you'd need enough methane to have made a 1% concentration on a _LARGE_ area.

- stormy conditions indicate that there was massive airflow in the region
- at even 1000 feet, the methane would have dispersed a great deal
- it there was enough methane to trigger a 1% concentration at that height, it _would_ have been noticed - the human nose can detect methane at concentrations _FAR_ below that.


(First post, by the way.)
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Good to have you on line, jpublic (Is your full name John Q. Public?) That was pretty good chemistry stuff. I too thought about trying to remember my college classes, but it was too long ago and I'm too damn lazy. So thanks, and I think your conclusions are probably correct.
 
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