Merged Ben Carson: Prisons prove being gay is a choice

[dudalb]

Ben Carson:This election cycle's version of Herman Cain.

 

[turingtest]

I think anti-gay conservatives painted themselves into this irrelevant "choice" corner when the conversation became about SSM as a civil rights issue, one about equality. When people began asking "why should gay people be legally treated as second-class citizens when we no longer allow black people to be treated that way?" the simplistic response was "but black people have no choice! Gay people do!" The goal post was moved to the easiest place available; then came the gabbling trying to justify the position.

Religion is a choice; political ideology is a choice. No sane conservative would ever even think about making "choice" a standard for restricting those civil rights. Why gay, even if it is a choice? Because it's icky, and gay people are "other"- no matter how they try to dress it up, that is what it comes down to for most of them. Even religion is a cover for that; when they cite Paul (or whoever), all they're doing is echoing and perpetuating a bigotry that had nothing to do with the basic principles of their faith.

Ben Carson is not a stupid man; he's just trapped by a meme into a position where he, as a Christian (choice) politically conservative (choice) figure, needs to deny to others what he benefits from himself.

The new meme is "well, sexual orientation is not a protected class for civil rights, like race or religion." To which I say- "exactly; and at one time, neither was race. And people like you are the reason it should be, and soon will be, for all your caterwauling about it."

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Gosh, I love Carson's monologues!

 

[Arcade22]

I also think the question of whether being gay is a "choice" is a red herring anyway. Does "choosing" to be gay mean that gay people are not deserving of equal rights? I think not.

It's mainly to make them seem less sympathetic and make discrimination against them more tolerable. Because it's (supposedly) their choice to have such feelings and desires, let alone act on those, it makes them more culpable for any abuse, contempt and ostracism they suffer from other people.

I mean if they didn't want to get thrown out by their parents, assaulted by homophobes or thrown in jail for sodomy they could just stop being gay. Right?

 

[pgwenthold]

And the guys in prison who just masturbate are asexual, right?

(trying to figure out what to call people who are not attracted to others but will arouse themselves....asexuals can be that way, but it seems a subset. Autosexual?)

 

[Ladewig]

I think anti-gay conservatives painted themselves into this irrelevant "choice" corner when the conversation became about SSM as a civil rights issue, one about equality. When people began asking "why should gay people be legally treated as second-class citizens when we no longer allow black people to be treated that way?" the simplistic response was "but black people have no choice! Gay people do!" The goal post was moved to the easiest place available; then came the gabbling trying to justify the position.

Religion is a choice; political ideology is a choice. No sane conservative would ever even think about making "choice" a standard for restricting those civil rights. Why gay, even if it is a choice? Because it's icky, and gay people are "other"- no matter how they try to dress it up, that is what it comes down to for most of them. Even religion is a cover for that; when they cite Paul (or whoever), all they're doing is echoing and perpetuating a bigotry that had nothing to do with the basic principles of their faith.

Ben Carson is not a stupid man; he's just trapped by a meme into a position where he, as a Christian (choice) politically conservative (choice) figure, needs to deny to others what he benefits from himself.

The new meme is "well, sexual orientation is not a protected class for civil rights, like race or religion." To which I say- "exactly; and at one time, neither was race. And people like you are the reason it should be, and soon will be, for all your caterwauling about it."

For a brief moment, I was going to say, "Damn you for posting what I wanted to say just 20 minutes before I signed in." But I now realize the appropriate response is "Bless you for yadda-yadda.."

Not to derail the thread but is there anyone at either end of the political spectrum who asserts that one's political stance is not a choice?

 

[Ladewig]

The other point that the bigots like to fall back on is "It is not the government's place to redefine marriage." Such small-mindedness ignores that the government redefined marriage when miscegenation laws were struck down. The government also redefined marriage when it ruled that women could own property.

It must be rather frustrating for those Americans who wistfully look back to a period that never existed. That era when posting the Ten Commandments in schoolrooms reduced crime, reduced premarital sex, and increased general respect for one's elders, dag-nab-it.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

Tell Republicans that.

Tell that to the sexologists

That is the bases for the kinsey institute study on sex where they interviewed thousands of gay and transvestite's in the prison population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute_for_Research_in_Sex,_Gender,_and_Reproduction

I'm not sure where you are disagreeing with Carson. Is homosexuality a choice? Well it is for people in prison, many of which remain gay.

The second point is why do liberals care so much about what Republicans think about Gays?

Oh yeah its the straw man that Republican's are racists homophobes

The OP is pathetic in his attempt to smear the opposition, why don't you find some policy that your against and debate that? Oh yeah I remember because you can't!

Paul Rubio and Mike Lee just came up with a new tax plan its more important that what ben carson thinks about gays in prison.

 

[Babbylonian]

Not to derail the thread but is there anyone at either end of the political spectrum who asserts that one's political stance is not a choice?

Being right isn't a choice. It's a burden with which some of us are born.

 

[Tony Stark]

Tell that to the sexologists

That is the bases for the kinsey institute study on sex where they interviewed thousands of gay and transvestite's in the prison population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute_for_Research_in_Sex,_Gender,_and_Reproduction

I'm not sure where you are disagreeing with Carson. Is homosexuality a choice? Well it is for people in prison, many of which remain gay.

The second point is why do liberals care so much about what Republicans think about Gays?

Oh yeah its the straw man that Republican's are racists homophobes

The OP is pathetic in his attempt to smear the opposition, why don't you find some policy that your against and debate that? Oh yeah I remember because you can't!

Paul Rubio and Mike Lee just came up with a new tax plan its more important that what ben carson thinks about gays in prison.

It isn't a strawman that Republicans (in general) are homphobes, it is a fact.

 

[Babbylonian]

Tell that to the sexologists

That is the bases for the kinsey institute study on sex where they interviewed thousands of gay and transvestite's in the prison population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute_for_Research_in_Sex,_Gender,_and_Reproduction

I'm not sure where you are disagreeing with Carson. Is homosexuality a choice? Well it is for people in prison, many of which remain gay.

1. I'm sure that's a very good Wikipedia article about the Kinsey Institute. Where is the study and what does it say?
2. It seems to me that you, like Dr. Carson, are conflating homosexual activity with homosexuality. If I decided to have sex with a man, that doesn't mean I'm homosexual. It might, but it might also mean that I'm bisexual, sexually adventurous, have no other options (as perhaps in the case of serving a prison sentence), or was simply sexually attracted to one specific man.

 

[bruto]

For a brief moment, I was going to say, "Damn you for posting what I wanted to say just 20 minutes before I signed in." But I now realize the appropriate response is "Bless you for yadda-yadda.."

Not to derail the thread but is there anyone at either end of the political spectrum who asserts that one's political stance is not a choice?

I suspect these days that there are at least a few people who would assert that it is only a sort of choice: the choice between good and evil; and that their belief makes it not a viable choice.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I think this is just equivocation. Sexual orientation is not a choice, or at least it doesn't appear to be. Sexual activity is a choice. That isn't controversial.

Saying "homosexuality is a choice, prison proves it" is just equivocating between activity and orientation

 

[LorenzoValla]

Tell Republicans that.

Which ones?

 

[Tony Stark]

Which ones?

The homophobic ones like Ben Carson.

 

[turingtest]

It's mainly to make them seem less sympathetic and make discrimination against them more tolerable. Because it's (supposedly) their choice to have such feelings and desires, let alone act on those, it makes them more culpable for any abuse, contempt and ostracism they suffer from other people.

I mean if they didn't want to get thrown out by their parents, assaulted by homophobes or thrown in jail for sodomy they could just stop being gay. Right?

That word- "culpable"- raises another point, about another imperative besides the political one (the framing of civil rights as somehow dependent on "choice"), and that's the religious imperative (which can blend seamlessly into the other one). After all, if being gay isn't a choice, it can't be a sin, and Christians can't oppose what god hasn't made blameworthy. (Unless they want to retreat into ye olde tyme Christianity, a la Paul Bethke, where just being what you were born can be a curse needing extra redemption.)

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

It isn't a strawman that Republicans (in general) are homphobes, it is a fact.

Drawing the conclusion that Homosexuality can be a choice using evidence of prison inmates makes someone a homophobe?

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for Rules 0 and 12.

 

[Tony Stark]

Drawing the conclusion that Homosexuality can be a choice using evidence of prison inmates makes someone a homophobe?

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

Republicans deserve all the scorn they get and more based on their own words and actions.

 

[Dissolution]

Here's what always really blows my mind about the "gay is a choice" argument. In order for something to be a sinful choice (as the religious right contend), it has to hold some dark, forbidden appeal in the first place. Right?

You know - people are tempted to overeat dessert, because the chocolate lava cake is just so good, consequences be damned! People are tempted to do naughty drugs even though they're bad for the body, because they just feel so damn good for awhile! That kind of thing.

So the people making these "choice" arguments are implicitly saying that gay sex is as awesome as eating a dozen chocolate lava cakes and tooting a big ol' rail of cocaine - and just as deadly for the soul. So it must be resisted, no matter how hard that may seem! I wonder if they realize this.

I'm thinking the irony'd probably be lost on most of them.

I think that this is exactly the problem for a lot of them.
They feel that gay sex is amazingly awesome and they'd far rather be doing it than staying in their fake marriage, but their religious views prohibit it.

Whenever I see one of these stories it's just a waiting game til the guy's caught in some sort of sex scandal or realises that he's being ridiculous and comes out.
Some of them are just bigots who find the whole thing appalling, admittedly.

Carson's apologised for his comments, unsurprisingly.
Not sure if he's apologised for calling white liberals the most racist people around, though.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Drawing the conclusion that Homosexuality can be a choice using evidence of prison inmates makes someone a homophobe?

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

I've watched them for half a century and they just keep getting worse.