Belief in the Afterlife

[Akhenaten]

Well on the surface it wouldn't seem that resurrection after clinical death qualifies as "life after death"

Not on the surface, not on the 15th floor and not in the basement and it's no coincidence that the only person here who has suggested such a ridiculous proposition is also the same person who's been nattering on in post after post about various other notions that similarly have nothing to do with the afterlife.

... but since there is no certainty that they weren't dead, and there were good medical reasons at the time to believe they were dead, and then resurrected back into this realm ...

There are no buts about it, ufology. Apparently 'death' is yet another word that has a meaning for you that's nothing like that which it has for everybody else.

. . . we can't really say with certainty that for those people, this existence isn't their afterlife.

'We' can.

Agreed however, that it's not the same as typical religious models involving some alternative reality.

Amazing! After 76 posts and Isis knows how many attempts to steer him straight ufology finally acknowledges that he's been off-topic since he started.

 

[Pixel42]

Monty Python on life after death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ALInv_wzSQ

 

[ufology]

Monty Python on life after death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ALInv_wzSQ

Thanks for that bit of comedy Pixel. They say there's always an element of truth in good humor, and on those grounds I'd say you've made a very convincing case.

 

[ufology]

I think I can conceive of things that would constitute evidence. That's about it though. No evidence.

I suppose it would look like whatever constitutes the visual feedback you experience while you are there, and if you somehow return back here with that memory intact, perhaps you could tell people about it.

 

[Akhenaten]

Thanks for that bit of comedy Pixel. They say there's always an element of truth in good humor, and on those grounds I'd say you've made a very convincing case.

And yet despite your own unendingly humourous contributions you have yet to convince anyone of anything.

What can it mean?

 

[Akhenaten]

I think I can conceive of things that would constitute evidence. That's about it though. No evidence.

I suppose it would look like whatever constitutes the visual feedback you experience while you are there, and if you somehow return back here with that memory intact, perhaps you could tell people about it.

Apart from the waffling nonsense, all you're saying here is that the whole anecdotes ≠ evidence thing still escapes you.

 

[Krikkiter]

I suppose it would look like whatever constitutes the visual feedback you experience while you are there, and if you somehow return back here with that memory intact, perhaps you could tell people about it.

Lay down on the couch and tell me about it.... So how do you feel about that?

 

[I Am He]

I suppose it would look like whatever constitutes the visual feedback you experience while you are there, and if you somehow return back here with that memory intact, perhaps you could tell people about it.

Said the Guy with out a clue.



I Am He

 

[RobRoy]

Amazing! After 76 posts and Isis knows how many attempts to steer him straight ufology finally acknowledges that he's been off-topic since he started.

Perhaps his meds have kicked in.

 

[Akhenaten]

Perhaps his meds have kicked in.

You're a glass-half-full kind of guy, aren't you?

 

[RobRoy]

You're a glass-half-full kind of guy, aren't you?

I always wanted to be a cynical bastard like Bogey in Casablanca, but damned if I don't revert to a Pollyanna type view every single time. The petticoats just feel nice.

 

[Porterboy]

The only person I have directly spoken to about their experience, or lack thereof after death was unfortunate enough to step on an IED while operating in panjwayi, Afghanistan. His heart stopped once on the ground and again while being flown out. He was "dead" for about 3 minutes. What did he experience?

"Everyone talks about lights at the end of the tunnel, I didn't see a damn thing."

After 23 years of active service as a Hospital Porter I've spoken to numerous people in that situation and I've never once heard anybody tell me they saw tunnels and lights and God etc. There's no doubt that whatever the NDE is it's not something common. Naturally thousands of people have reported them but then how many million have been rescusitated since defibrillators and modern resus techniques were devised? NDE's are clearly a very rare occurance that only come about in unusual circumstances, whatever they are. However how common or uncommon they are doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what causes them. If they're real then it doesn't mean that people who don't have them don't go to Heaven etc.

...But what I want is unfortunately not a factor when it comes to what is.

Agreed. Just because you might want there to be an Afterlife doesn't make it more true... but my main point is that such a statement cuts both ways: If NDE's are glimpses of the real Afterlife then wishing them not to be real, and desperately hoping that they're just illusions of the hypoxic, dying brain, for reasons of MBA-hood or other motives, doesn't maker that true either.

 

[Porterboy]

I think you should spend more time paying attention to what people say and less to what you think their motives might be.

I respectfully differ. I think I've spent more than enough time paying attention to what people say. I've formed theories about what I think motivates Skeptics, what makes them tick. This is exactly what Skeptics have done with us Woo's many many times. It cuts both ways, and you should have expected that.

 

[Resume]

If NDE's are glimpses of the real Afterlife then wishing them not to be real, and desperately hoping that they're just illusions of the hypoxic, dying brain, for reasons of MBA-hood or other motives, doesn't maker that true either.

If me auntie had balls . . . Hypoxia is a physical phenomenon that has been observed and documented. The afterlife is a popular though unevidenced assertion for which the default position is . . ? I think you know.

 

[Mashuna]

I respectfully differ. I think I've spent more than enough time paying attention to what people say. I've formed theories about what I think motivates Skeptics, what makes them tick. This is exactly what Skeptics have done with us Woo's many many times. It cuts both ways, and you should have expected that.

All you need to do now is work out a way to test those theories, and you'll be acting in a properly sceptical manner!

 

[Porterboy]

...Some skeptics do not believe in an afterlife because they have studied the philosophy op f the mind, the history of religion, the psychology of man, and other arts and sciences and come to the inescapable conclusion that a soul, and an afterlife, is an illusion. Other skeptics may reject the idea of an afterlife simply because they have no proof, or because they reject a religion that believers in an afterlife, or because they believe that the concept of an afterlife is used by others to control people, or even simply because they want to be like other skeptics.

People can believe things for reasons that are shallow and naïve, or for reasons that are well thought out and investigated. I would hazard a guess that there are more of the former than the latter.

I don't deny that, I don't wish to generalize. What I have an issue with is that disbelief in the Afterlife is somehow the purely pragmatic and rational option, and that belief in the Afterlife is generated though wishful-thinking. There is, to quote you yourself, far more complex behaviour involved here. I think that to reject all belief in the Afterlife can be based on wishful-thinking too.

Some skeptics may come across as smug or superior sounding because it is a bit like defending the theory of relativity over and over again. Yes, it is counter-intuitive. Yes, it doesn’t “feel” right. And, yes, it may seem to contradict your experience. And, yes, it is difficult to explain. But it is correct.

As I said though, in some cases there may being more going on with them psychologically and socialologically.

 

[Krikkiter]

I don't deny that, I don't wish to generalize. What I have an issue with is that disbelief in the Afterlife is somehow the purely pragmatic and rational option, and that belief in the Afterlife is generated though wishful-thinking. There is, to quote you yourself, far more complex behaviour involved here. I think that to reject all belief in the Afterlife can be based on wishful-thinking too.
As I said though, in some cases there may being more going on with them psychologically and socialologically.

What's the null hypothesis?

 

[Porterboy]

Let us get back on topic and ignore VR and cryogenic fantasies. Porterboy asked us for our opinions on a possible afterlife. I have never seen any evidence for the existence of an afterlife.

Actually the topic was that I'm not so interested in the evidence per se, at this juncture, for the existence of the Afterlife as the psychological and sociological forces behind the theory. Why do people believe it it? Who do people not believe in it?

If you want to talk about the evidence as an aside, Dai, that's fine. I had an interesting past-life regression once: Apparently a long time ago I was born as a fish! A lovely salmon swimming in a river. I lived to a ripe old age too. Many fishermen tried to catch me but they failed... you see, I was sensible enough not to rise to the bait.

 

[Porterboy]

Paul,

I have one of Hitchens books ( God Is Not Great ). It was a good read. Interesting how if it weren't for the context, your paraphrase above could be taken both ways.

Ah yes! Good book I like the chapter about pigs. Have you read Hitch 22?

Hitchens in his poignant last interview with Jeremy Paxman said that he finds it unlikely that there could be an Afterlife, but he also said "I love surprises". What's more he added something more that I profoundly agree with: He said that if there is any kind of Life-After-Death then the religions are not in any way related to it.

 

[Krikkiter]

Actually the topic was that I'm not so interested in the evidence per se, at this juncture, for the existence of the Afterlife as the psychological and sociological forces behind the theory.

BS.

I think that to reject all belief in the Afterlife can be based on wishful-thinking too.

You're seriously saying that using the null is wishful thinking?