Belief in the Afterlife

[Porterboy]

I have news for you. Red Dwarf is not a documentary.

And I have news for you: I'm not intimidated by sarcasm.

What does Kryten believing in a fictional silicon heaven in a fictional show have to do with anything?

Because Kryten is a character created by real people. Fiction may be something made up and imaginary, but it is influenced by what goes on in the real world. Even the most far-out science-fiction and fantasy literature comes from the pen of a man or woman who has real-life thoughts and feelings. So what people write in fiction is equally important to what people say when writing documentaries or real-life commentaries. The elements in Red Dwarf are matched by documentaries anyway, like the link I posted to Richard Dawkins' programme.

 

[Porterboy]

You might find lectures 10 - 13 of this series of lectures helpful in doing so.

Thanks. Whether I agree or not I'm sure I'll enjoy them.

 

[Porterboy]

The fact is that I personally don't disbelieve in an afterlife (actually, I'm pretty agnostic about it) based on my own preference. And I have reason to thing that this goes for most unbelievers.

Probably more than will admit to it! I'm probably only slightly less agnostic than many Skeptics. As I said, I'll probably have to wait until it's my turn to know for sure, and I intend to delay that for as long as possible, as we all do.

 

[Marduk]

Because Kryten is a character created by real people. Fiction may be something made up and imaginary, but it is influenced by what goes on in the real world. Even the most far-out science-fiction and fantasy literature comes from the pen of a man or woman who has real-life thoughts and feelings. So what people write in fiction is equally important to what people say when writing documentaries or real-life commentaries. The elements in Red Dwarf are matched by documentaries anyway, like the link I posted to Richard Dawkins' programme.

"But where do all the calculators go"

 

[Porterboy]

don't you also wish that you could win the lottery ?
wishing doesn't make you rich does it

No it doesn't. And wishing that the Afterlife were not real when it actually is doesn't make the Afterlife unreal either. Wishful-thinking cuts both ways.

 

[Porterboy]

He is an ex-porter nowadays!

Cheap shot, Beez! You know I'm sensitive about that, could you drop it please.

 

[Porterboy]

If you had provided convincing evidence, and I still rejected it, then you could accuse me of wishful thinking.

Then I suppose whether you believe me or not is dependent on whether you think there is convincing scientific evidence for the Afterlife or not. I think that there might be some good evidence, but it could be that what I've termed "MBA", this desire for prestige and to be seen as brave for disbeliving in the Afterlife, might have some influence on the conclusions of the research required. Of course science is supposed to be above all that! It's meant to be free of that kind of bias, and it should be. Richard Dawkins relates an experience he had in his book The God Delusion where a scientist had his entire theory torn down by a single lecture and at the end he stood up and publically thanked the lacturer amid rapturous applause from the audience, some of whom were weeping with emotion. However this is an idealistic scenario; how often does it really work like that?

 

[Porterboy]

I frequent Porterboy's forum HPANWO...

...He is Hagbard Celine

Thanks! there's me thinking I could keep a few secrets!

 

[Porterboy]

I'm not a religious person, but I do think that some form of continuity of consciousness may be possible after our mortal bodies have ceased to function.

It's a pity that religions have "cornered the market" on the entire concept.

The only issue I have with the idea is that I don't consider a so-called life after death equivalent to immortality. Our bodies are a major part of what we are. It would be bad enough to lose a leg or an eye ... imagine the whole thing! When we lose a piece of our bodies we lose a piece of ourselves. True immortality would mean not losing anything ... and continuing to live in perfect health as long as we want and to have control over how we change our physical nature.

That is what the cryonics and Life Extension Movement is all about, Aubrey de Grey and people like him. This might work, I'm not sure. However that would definitely be "immortality" in the strictest sense of the word, simply not dying. That's very different to the notion of the Afterlife, that our mental existence continues by some unknown mechanism after our bodies and brains have stopped functioning. If this is possible then it's likely that it occurs as a very different state of consciousness to what we experience now as waking, breathing land animals with working brains.

 

[Marduk]

No it doesn't. And wishing that the Afterlife were not real when it actually is doesn't make the Afterlife unreal either. Wishful-thinking cuts both ways.

I don't think anyone is wishing the afterlife isn't real, the lines pretty much divided between, thinking it is and not caring if it isn't, the only person I can think of who might be wishing the afterlife isn't real is Ted Haggard

 

[Porterboy]

Summarizing, Harris says it's irrational to believe that our minds survive the destruction of our brain at death when we see that damaging a part of the brain can damage a part of the mind. So how could we think that damaging the entire brain would somehow not mean the damage/loss of the entire mind?

Firstly I disagreee with what he says in the first half-minute; where is says: "is" he ought to say: "should".

One thing that he makes very clear though is that if any part of our consciousness survives the death of our physical body then it would be mentally very different to what we are today, as I said to UFOlogy above. There's no doubt that our physical brain is the processor that runs our living mind; damage part of the brain and it damages part of the mind.

 

[Porterboy]

I don't think anyone is wishing the afterlife isn't real, the lines pretty much divided between, thinking it is and not caring if it isn't, the only person I can think of who might be wishing the afterlife isn't real is Ted Haggard

Oh there are many others! I've met and spoken to them on numerous occasions. I posted examples above of what I call "MBA- Materialist Bravery Award". The idea that a person who can get though their day without the prospect of Heaven to look forward to is socially superior to one who cannot, in their eyes, face life without the promise of an Afterlife.

 

[Porterboy]

I think he makes excellent points and I've been through this issue in my own reflections on the matter. Essentially my present viewpoint is that the brain is the center of our personality, and intellect ... for all intents and purposes ... our consciousness. However the reasons I am inclined to think that some form of continuity of consciousness is possible differs slightly from the viewpoint expressed in the video and can reconcile the apparent conflict. To begin with, we dump the concept of ectoplasm being responsible for manifesting or transporting consciousness, and we modify the idea he expresses as "software being run on the brain". In his version the brain is still some physical thing while consciousness is something else. However if we look at existence itself as some form of generated construct analogous to a VR universe, then that is another story. Almost anything is possible including resurrection. I will pause at this point to give you some time to reflect and respond.

Those are fascinating ideas. A lot of Oriental and indigenous spiritual practices, like meditation or taking certain drugs, are about shutting down or altering the normal mental processes of our mind in order to experience some kind of "higher consciousness" or "overmind" (I can't be sure here what terminology to use and I'm too keen on those words But in the absence of better alternatives they'll have to suffice.) I've personally never experienced this kind of thing, but people talk about the "veil being parted" and the "true self being audible once the noise of life is quietened." It must be an amazing feeling!

 

[dafydd]

No it doesn't. And wishing that the Afterlife were not real when it actually is doesn't make the Afterlife unreal either. Wishful-thinking cuts both ways.

You have proof of the existence of this afterlife? Something that doesn't come from a Dwarfies convention?

 

[Marduk]

but people talk about the "veil being parted" and the "true self being audible once the noise of life is quietened." It must be an amazing feeling!

its pretty identical to feeling drugged
bit of a clue there

Something that doesn't come from a Dwarfies convention?

So where do all the calculators go, if it isn't silicon heaven ?

 

[Brainache]

Why is it only ever people who are supposed to have an afterlife? Don't monkeys deserve one too? Or cats, dogs, rabbits, fish, worms, microbes?

Or any other chemical reactions - where does the flame go when you snuff a candle?

 

[Marduk]

Why is it only ever people who are supposed to have an afterlife? ?

Economics

 

[Brainache]

Economics

I think someone could make a pretty penny selling the idea of pet heaven to certain sections of the community...

I bet someone is aready doing it...

Just did a quick google and found this:
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/w/w_lasalle/

OUR MISSION

Our mission is to prove without a shadow of a doubt that when God made animals He made them with spirits and souls and intended that they have a place in Heaven.

I would like to assure readers that our ministry includes the love of people and animals alike. Some people see animals as simply a part of life to keep us company when we need them. We believe in and love God and everything that Jesus taught as do all the other ministries that teach the Word. It is God's plan that we love all His creatures and this is exactly what we do. So believe that our teachings on animals souls and spirits and their part in God's plan for Salvation is in addition to all the other teachings as found in the Bible

Oh My Dog

 

[Mashuna]

Proclaiming I don't understand is not an answer. Nobody including you has addressed the argument itself and been able to substantiate their position. Please refute this if think otherwise ... and try to actually address the issues rather than make more proclamations and repeating what other people have said.

I think you're being very charitable. It seems to me to be more likely that he understands just fine but is simply unable to acknowledge his error.

I think you're right. I think a pre-emptive ignore will make this thread much easier reading .

 

[Marduk]

I think someone could make a pretty penny selling the idea of pet heaven to certain sections of the community...

I bet someone is aready doing it...

Just did a quick google and found this:
http://www.ourchurch.com/member/w/w_lasalle/


Oh My Dog

this one has that beat hands down
http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/

You've committed your life to Jesus. You know you're saved. But when the Rapture comes what's to become of your loving pets who are left behind?
Eternal Earth-Bound Pets takes that burden off your mind.

We are a group of dedicated animal lovers, and atheists. Each Eternal Earth-Bound Pet representative is a confirmed atheist, and as such will still be here on Earth after you've received your reward. Our network of animal activists are committed to step in when you step up to Jesus.

We are currently active in 27 states, employing 48 pet rescuers. Our representatives have been screened to ensure that they are atheists, animal lovers, are moral / ethical with no criminal background, have the ability and desire to rescue your pet and the means to ensure their care for your pet's natural life.