Belief in the Afterlife

[Halfcentaur]

If an eternal life was possible (not just in the religious sense but also in the science fiction sort of sense), I don't know that it would be in a form that we could currently imagine.

If it was, I don't know how we would manage.

And I think ultimately that's the only way most reasonable superstitious people look at it. A vague sort of something that is beyond anything we can imagine. Hehe, reasonable superstitious people,...

 

[Porterboy]

And, let's take this up a level: one could say that you are showing some pride in how you've figured out those atheists. "BUT... I have it all figured out! The 'ordinary inferior people' are just going for all that atheist prestige. But I have the insight, the humbleness, and the general superiority to know the truth!"

Silly, huh?

Not really. What's silly is pretending to ones self that one does not have this kind of feeling at all and projecting it onto those that do. Saying for instance: "It's so comforting not (having this new discovery). But we can face the truth!"

 

[Porterboy]

I getcha. So what I think you have here is a full-fledged, honest-to-goodness, good-ole-fashioned hypothesis. Agreed?

Sure. It's a tough one to prove, but who knows Dr Karen Douglas takes up my suggestion and carries out a psychological study on Skeptics and Atheo-Materialists. She and her colleagues have done an extensive one of "conspiracy theorists".

 

[Porterboy]

No wishful thinking involved in your examples.

Is I think. There are other examples too. I recall a very forthright statement along those lines in the script of one of the episodes of the comedy TV series Red Dwarf. I'm a big fan of the show, but not that big I think it was in Series 3 or 4. Kryton, the robot believes he's going to an electronic afterlife when he gets shut down and... help me out here! Anybody here a Red Dwarf expert?

 

[Porterboy]

Spending thousands of years around god's throne, singing his praises? No thanks, give me oblivion.

If that were the case I'd say: Me too! But if there is such a thing as the Afterlife it might be very different to that. It might be more like Anthony Peake's model: that the Afterlife is not much different to what we're experiencing now. For all we know we might now already be in an Afterlife from a previous life.

 

[Porterboy]

I think an eternity of bliss could actually work, provided there are some radical changes to the current model of sentience we make use of, though these changes may offer some disturbing questions about free will.

But what is it one fears about an eternity of anything?

Developing a tolerance for what excites you, leading to boredom and nothing but an infinite void of time to look forward to?

Removing boredom from the equation isn't that difficult. There are times when a mind is surrounded by the familiar, but has an inexplicable sense of contentedness, a contentedness owed to nothing more than mood.

If a mood can be suspended indefinitly, problem solved. The issue here seems to be nothing more than mood. But what does one sacrifice with this restriction over mood?

Perhaps complete and total control and customization over the mood of one's self is the reward in this theoretical heaven.

Is there a reasonably plausible model for a heaven that does not cause us discomfort when we really examine it closely?

It's that pesky idea of the self that get's tangled up in my mind.

If we have a soul, do souls come out of existence from nothing? How can something come from nothing?

If we existed before we were born, why do we not remember it? Does existing still matter if we have no continued sense of self or memory?

If it does still matter, even though the current sense of self is not a factor and you're no longer "you", what's the difference between an afterlife where you're not your current self, and an afterlife where there is no more self and your cells and matter simply breaks down to be recycled in whatever material processes one would expect?

If you have some proto soul identity you only remember in between lives, that seems just as disturbing to me as complete annihilation of the self, outside of an irrational and emotional sense of satisfaction I derive that is seeded in my drive to keep on going in any way I possibly can.

If the Afterlife is real, then these are interesting questions and there's no dfinite answer. Religion has muddied the waters terribly.

The terrible boredom of eternity etc could be solved with limiting memory. I know some people claim to have past-life memories, but I don't. If, supposing, my current life is just one small part of an eternal existence I have to experience, or endure, then I'm coping just fine because I can't remember anything before it. In fact I have trouble remembering some parts of the life I have now!

 

[Porterboy]

One of my favorite stories is "Flat Land" by Edwin A Abott. One of things that struck me about the story is how difficult, if not impossible, it is for us to imagine a reality that is not based on concepts that we already know. For a two dimensional "Flatlander", the concept of up simply could not be imagined because it had no counterpart in his reality.

If an eternal life was possible (not just in the religious sense but also in the science fiction sort of sense), I don't know that it would be in a form that we could currently imagine.

I reckon so. It must be. And in the case of the Flatland story there seems to be an "as above- so below" regression. When Square is shown the 3D world by Sphere, described very skillfully in the narrative, he demands to know about higher dimensions than that and Sphere balks. Perhaps our view of the universe is confined to our scope and superior awareness is purely relative.

 

[Mashuna]

If, supposing, my current life is just one small part of an eternal existence I have to experience, or endure, then I'm coping just fine because I can't remember anything before it. In fact I have trouble remembering some parts of the life I have now!

If you don't have the same physical body, and no memory of previous lives, in what sense do you have eternal existence?

 

[beetzart]

I frequent the HPANWO forum where people think that gnomes are real, Apollo never happened, the Queen is a reptillian, Icke makes sense, the illuminati have bases on planets in other Solar Systems (where the Apollo missions were filmed), every large company is evil, etc...

Why do I go there? I find it a laugh, plus I was once suckered in by Icke and his lunacy so I wish to make my feelings heard. I am a skeptic and a MBA bronze holder because I think we are just molecules. There was a story once that a certain member was going to thrown blood over the Queen to see if she would shapeshift!

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Is I think. There are other examples too. I recall a very forthright statement along those lines in the script of one of the episodes of the comedy TV series Red Dwarf. I'm a big fan of the show, but not that big I think it was in Series 3 or 4. Kryton, the robot believes he's going to an electronic afterlife when he gets shut down and... help me out here! Anybody here a Red Dwarf expert?

Kryten: But, sir, do you not believe that God exists in all things? Are you not a pantheist?
Lister: Sure, I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a frying pantheist.

Kryten: Is it not written in the Electronic Bible that the iron shall lie down with the lamp?

Lister is also the god of the cats, as revealed in "Waiting For God". I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make by referencing the programme, though. It doesn't support anything you're saying in any way that I can see.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It might be more like Anthony Peake's model: that the Afterlife is not much different to what we're experiencing now.

That's one of the most depressing ideas I've ever encountered...

For all we know we might now already be in an Afterlife from a previous life.

...until I read that one.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I know some people claim to have past-life memories, but I don't.

Take a guess at what actual objective research into past-life regression has shown.

 

[Paul2]

Sure. It's a tough one to prove, but who knows Dr Karen Douglas takes up my suggestion and carries out a psychological study on Skeptics and Atheo-Materialists. She and her colleagues have done an extensive one of "conspiracy theorists".

Great, just don't take it any further than a mere hypothesis without some decent evidence. It's really very speculative.

 

[Porterboy]

If you don't have the same physical body, and no memory of previous lives, in what sense do you have eternal existence?

Erm... I don't know. I'll have to think about that.

 

[Porterboy]

I frequent the HPANWO forum where people think that gnomes are real, Apollo never happened, the Queen is a reptillian, Icke makes sense, the illuminati have bases on planets in other Solar Systems (where the Apollo missions were filmed), every large company is evil, etc...

I admire you're honestly, Beetz. Most people would probably keep that to themselves. It's a nice bunch of people. That Hagbard Celine fellow I get on with very well. He may be a Woo, but he's the brightest and most reasonable one I've ever met.

There was a story once that a certain member was going to thrown blood over the Queen to see if she would shapeshift!

Good grief! They didn't do it did they?

 

[Porterboy]

Kryten: But, sir, do you not believe that God exists in all things? Are you not a pantheist?
Lister: Sure, I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a frying pantheist.

Kryten: Is it not written in the Electronic Bible that the iron shall lie down with the lamp?

Thanks. Ha ha! What a fantastic series that was!

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make by referencing the programme, though. It doesn't support anything you're saying in any way that I can see.

There's a scene in one of the episodes where Lister and Kryten are discussing the electronic Afterlife and it turns out Kryten's manufacturers programmed him to believe in it so that he wouldn't object to being scrapped in favour of a new robot model. I get the feeling that this is an allegory for human society in the view of Karl Marx who thought: "Religion is the opium of the people". At the end of the scene Lister asks Kryten what he thinks about the human Afterlife and Kryten says: "Humans don't have an Afterlife, Sir. Somebody just made that up to prevent you all going nuts." The joke being that Kryten can't see the comparison to the robots' situation. What I read betwen the lines is that if one can live a life and not go nuts without this thing that somebody has made up, it makes one superior. Therefore believing that there is no Afterlife, or saying that you do, has an attraction. It is wishful-thinking. What's more if it turns out one day that the Afterlife is real, then the above belief becomes a falsehood, a "comforting illusion" in the very same way that some Materialists claim that the current belief in the Afterlife is.

 

[Porterboy]

That's one of the most depressing ideas I've ever encountered...



...until I read that one.

It's pretty similar to the old Hindu notion of Samsara. However, according to Peake, we do have some control over the situation that doesn't involve meditating under a tree like the Buddha.

 

[Porterboy]

Take a guess at what actual objective research into past-life regression has shown.

I've had a brief look; to be honest it doesn't interest me that much. I'd need to study it more carefully to form an opinion.

 

[Porterboy]

Great, just don't take it any further than a mere hypothesis without some decent evidence. It's really very speculative.

It's completely speculative, and I've never suggested otherwise. It's based mostly on what I've heard people say in conversation.

 

[Nursedan]

The OP sig line contains a redundancy.

carry on