Being transgender is hard

[iknownothing]

If "you guys" don't even know that animals do not experience self awareness or consciousness the way humans do I can't even begin to explain gender to you.

I still don't think you've shown any evidence regarding this. Or how it would relate to how an animal experiences gender. (And reading this thread, I already know that your answer will be some condescending variation on "educate yourself, I am shocked at your ignorance" while again failing to support your claim.)

I also don't think that it's wrong to question whether parents are correctly interpreting their child's situation as gender dysmorphia rather than something else. Or to question whether non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical counseling that preserves the child's future ability to have children would be a kinder approach.

However, on both counts I think the answers, unfortunately, that it is a real condition, and that those rare parents who support their children in this are not misinterpreting it. I have read through some stories and blogs, and it strikes me that time and again, the parents are brought on board slowly and reluctantly. Even those parents who later become outspoken about it, needed some time to get fully on board.

And if there is a way to counsel someone out of it, it hasn't been discovered yet. And the forms of therapy that have been tried have been terribly damaging. So even though therapy seems on the surface like the kinder, easier route to take, I don't think that experience bears that out.

Which is too bad. It would be nice if there was some way to help a child to gender-identify with their physical sex, without having to face a future filled with so much difficulty.

Oh, and regarding the question of whether a child can even think of such things at a young age: I think most children don't, because they have an easy time identifying with what they are. If you're a boy and love it, and gravitate towards boy things, and easily fit into a boy role in life, then you have no need to think about it. It does seem like those children who have this issue think through these things because it all feels off, and they have to.

It's easy to see why, for example, with the boy who had the botched circumcision and was raised as a girl: it makes perfect sense that he felt like something was wrong, and you can see how that tortured him during his life. The thing is, it seems like transgender children have that same sense, even though the reasons are not so clear. If they are expressing the same things that he did, it seems that the most compassionate response is to respect that.

But it would be terrifying to be the parent and have to decide whether you really are taking the right course. What if you're over-reacting to some other gender issue when you let your child transition? What if you under-react and the child grows up miserable? I doubt that anyone makes those decisions lightly.

 

[iknownothing]

Seriously - I come down on the same general side as you on the subject but I wouldn't side with you on anything on the strength of your argument, because you have none. Only assertions. The mechanics of topical discussions is not constant repetition of "I'm right because I say I am".

Yes!

 

[Toke]

...
Someone mentioned the Swedish Tittmyran "experiment" and there are a couple of confusions around it. It is not located in Stockholm and it is not countrywide. The original Tittmyran is actually a daycare/preschool in my old hometown and the thinking behind that was not to raise gender neutral kids but to make paedagogs more aware of how _they_ interact with boys and girls differently. It started with teachers being filmed over time, interacting with the kids. When they saw themselves on the videos they were shocked at to what degree the gender of the child they interacted with changed their attitude. Among other things they found that while they spent a disproportionate amount of time on the boys the amount of negative feedback the boys got was generally higher than that of the girls. They also found they reinforced use of gender specific toys simply by the feedback they gave when the children played with them. The Tittmyran project (not an experiment) is aimed at addressing teacher behaviour - not child behaviour. ("Titt" means "Look", "Gawk" or "Look-in", "myran" means "the ant". It's a nonsense name that literally translates to "The Gawking Ant". Very typical Swedish preschool name. My former work place used department names like Sharks, Tigers and The Castle. Which is more fun than when I was a kid and we used only colours.)

The project has been going for, I think, some 14-15 years now and is being continuously evaluated. So far no kids show signs of being harmed by having teachers who try their best not to stereotype them.
...

It was me, and your explanation makes a lot more sense that what I got from a Danish newspaper article.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Not when it comes to consciousness.

You have provided no evidence suggesting that animals are not conscious or self-aware. In fact, I can prove the opposite. Not only are elephants conscious, intelligent, but they are also self-aware. Elephants aren’t the only ones. They join a very small group. This group consists of Earth’s most intelligent animals (Elephants, Cetaceans (whales, dolphins, and porpoises), and Apes (including humans)). Elephants are among the few species known to practice grief for their dead. The only other known species are humans (modern Homo sapiens sapiens) and Neanderthals. They have the capacity for empathy (as shown with the practice of grieving for their dead or loved ones), and even altruism. In fact they have so many complex qualities that elephants, humans, and dolphins are among the most intelligent and self-aware animals on the planet.

Your argument is not based on logic but based on emotion and self-defense. The fact that people are requiring evidence means that they are skeptical. People are entitled to be skeptical. I am skeptical because there has been NO indication that any of the other sentient species we have observed on Earth are presently dissatisfied with their gender. We have observed however, homosexual behavior occurring naturally, especially in apes, cetaceans (whales, dolphins, etc.), and ELEPHANTS. I’ve seen plenty of programs and documentaries about elephant sexuality. And Elephants are prone to role changes and homosexuality. Not only that but males will often mount one another and engage in sexual intercourse. The evidence we have supporting homosexual behavior, role reversals, and other similar topics is tremendous. However, there is almost no occurrence of desiring to switch genders in nature.

Your fear of people exploring alternatives shows that there may be something more to this situation than the TG community desires to explore. Unlike you I will provide evidence for my assertions and continue to explore all things. Unfortunately we still haven't explored how the brain looks during any other self-image or identity disorders. And the brain patterns are inconclusive at best. Do pedophiles have brain patterns similar to those of a child? Do those who are anorexic have brain patterns similar to that of an obese person? These are relevant questions when looking at the grand scheme of things. Alt + F4 brought up several key issues and philosophical questions that have not been thoroughly explored throughout this debate.

The last time I checked humans were animals. Our species is Homo Sapiens Sapiens. We are of the Genus Homo. We are of the tribe Hominini (along with our closest living relatives chimps and bonobos). All Hominini are a part of the super family Hominoidea commonly known as “Apes” which consists of the great apes (Humans, Chimps, Bonobos, Gorillas, and Orangutans) and our lesser ape cousins (gibbons). All apes are a part of the Order primates, and all primates are a part of the Class Mammalia. In other words, humans are animals, we are no different. We have the ability to reason, to ask questions, to dream, and to learn. But we also too have natural desires and urges.

Waging arguments stating that humans are the only self-conscious and self-aware animals shows ME your ignorance and lack of understanding. It shows me that you are afraid of something. This transgendered topic is not a simple one. It brings up many ethical decisions our society has to face. It asks many fundamental questions, not only what does it mean to be a man or a woman, but too, what does it mean to be human?

 

[truethat]

The highlighted bit is Stundie-nomworthy, standalone. I actually debated nomming it.

No matter how you feel about the subject, this is a skeptics' forum and evidence is usually required rather than taking blanket assertions from anyone, no matter how highly they think of themselves.

Evidence versus assertions. So basically you want me to find "evidence' that animal consciousness is different than human consciousness.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but I do think that you ought to just look at that statement and A. Explain to me how you would find evidence that would prove that. and B. Why you would require evidence.


It is not an assertion to suggest that a whale's physical body is different than that of a human. If someone comes to a message board and demands that I give them "evidence" to prove that a whales body is different than that of a human and suggests that if I don't then I'm skirting the issue, I think you would think they were either incredibly stupid or insane.


This is why I said that this thread reminds me of the evolution threads where people are demanding "evidence" to prove something that has already been pretty much proven and accepted by the scientific, medical and psychological communities world wide.

To say you need "evidence" to prove that animal consciousness is different than that of human consciousness is bizarre.


Likewise to say you need "evidence' to prove that "parents are not misunderstanding their child's behavior" when Gender Identity Disorder is a diagnosis that is made by medical professionals that usually involve a team of professionals, then you are making something up in order to have a conversation about it.


My assertions have been based on facts and evidence. Not like many who want to base their assertions on their opinions of the facts and evidence.

 

[truethat]

Waging arguments stating that humans are the only self-conscious and self-aware animals shows ME your ignorance and lack of understanding. It shows me that you are afraid of something. This transgendered topic is not a simple one. It brings up many ethical decisions our society has to face. It asks many fundamental questions, not only what does it mean to be a man or a woman, but too, what does it mean to be human?

Maybe go read it again. I said animal consciousness is different than human consciousness. Human and animal consciousness is completely different. If you doubt this then more power to you. I am not derailing a thread to discuss it any more than I already have. Educate yourself. Don't ask me to do it for you.

Also please stop bringing up homosexuality in the transgendered thread. Homosexuality and Sexuality have absolutely NOTHING to do with transgender issues. More old fashioned ignorance on the topic.

The transgendered issue only brings up one "ethical decision" that our society needs to face. Are you going to continue to think like a backwoods hillbilly who just doesn't feel it's right, or are you going to accept the mountain of evidence from the medical, psychological and scientific communities that recognize the disorder and their recommendations for treatment?

 

[Stereolab]

Also please stop bringing up homosexuality in the transgendered thread. Homosexuality and Sexuality have absolutely NOTHING to do with transgender issues. More old fashioned ignorance on the topic.

Wow, you should have busted into the OP's meeting and told them all they were ignorant for talking about such issues, then.

 

[truethat]

Wow, you should have busted into the OP's meeting and told them all they were ignorant for talking about such issues, then.

This is basic ignorance. Being transgendered has nothing at all to do with homosexuality.

I suppose this is a very good example to explain to you guys why I have been so frustrated in this thread.


Because when you make a statement about homosexuality when discussing transgendered issues the way you have been, it is abundantly clear once again that you have no idea what you are talking about which is why you are confusing the issue so much.


Homosexuality is sexual orientation. It is very different from Gender.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/topics-issues/glbtq/606?task=view


I'll try to educate a little.


Being transgendered means that you feel the opposite gender than your body looks like. So if you are a man in a woman's body like Chaz Bono, and you find that you are attracted to women, you would outwardly present as a lesbian because your body is a woman's body. But in reality you are a heterosexual male in a woman's body.

This is the only time homosexuality winds up crossing paths with Gender issues. If a man is in a woman's body and he is sexually attracted to men, he is a heterosexual woman in a man's body. He will present to the world as a gay man because his body looks like a man's body. But his Gender is female.

Also Transgendered people are just like anyone else, they can be gay, straight or bi. So of course you are going to have sexual orientation issues just like anyone else. But Gender has nothing to do with Sexual Orientation.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Has anyone asked Arthur or Martha?

 

[Stereolab]

This is basic ignorance.

You say that about everything anyone posts, so it's worth a reminder that you're within a thread that started with (paraphrased) "I like supporting homosexual issues and I went to my homosexual club meeting and we talked about transgender issues".

 

[truethat]

You say that about everything anyone posts, so it's worth a reminder that you're within a thread that started with (paraphrased) "I like supporting homosexual issues and I went to my homosexual club meeting and we talked about transgender issues".

I'm straight and I discuss homosexual issues all the time. It's got nothing to do with me identifying with my own gender as a woman. Why would it?


Again this is basic ignorance.

 

[iknownothing]

It is not an assertion to suggest that a whale's physical body is different than that of a human. If someone comes to a message board and demands that I give them "evidence" to prove that a whales body is different than that of a human and suggests that if I don't then I'm skirting the issue, I think you would think they were either incredibly stupid or insane.

That's not what's happening. You want to dismiss the idea of studying animals based on your bare assertion that they do not experience consciousness the way we do. And yet, people frequently study animal behavior to help provide insight into human behavior. If you want to claim that this issue is unique to humans, so that there is no way to study any animal parallels, then you have to provide some sort of reason why.

Previous posters have pointed out to you that studies of animal behavior have gone a long way to support the idea that homosexuality is, in fact, normal and common. Yet you want to simply claim that there is no possibility that animals share this particular condition. Why? Is it a matter of brain structure? Hormone exposure in the womb? Why would those factors not affect animals?

To state what you are stating, you would have to have a definitive answer on how & why this happens. There are guesses, but no certain answer. We don't even have answers on what gender really is. What does it mean to be female or male? How much self-awareness is involved (since you are so certain that animals are insufficiently self-aware to suffer from this)?

 

[Stereolab]

I'm straight and I discuss homosexual issues all the time. It's got nothing to do with me identifying with my own gender as a woman. Why would it?


Again this is basic ignorance.

Things are offensive depending on who says them.
Things are ignorant depending on who says them.

I see a clear pattern with you.

I hope you are outraged at all "LGBT" groups since, how dare they lump the G and the T in the same boat.

 

[truethat]

I want to apologize to everyone in the thread. I shouldn't have approached the discussion the way I did. I didn't realize that people were really this uninformed. I say that as a sincere statement.

When I first joined this site I wanted to ask questions about evolution and I had some ideas on the topic but I was very ignorant and uneducated about it and so I would do the same thing. I'd be trying to discuss it and not know what I was saying.

I was put to the mat by many of the more knowledgeable posters who accused me of pretending not to know information in order to create a debate. And I was not.

I have treated you all poorly, the same way I was treated and I am sorry. I really didn't realize that you didn't understand. I will post more information and less flaming comments.

I am sorry.

 

[L.Y.S.]

delete

 

[truethat]

That's not what's happening. You want to dismiss the idea of studying animals based on your bare assertion that they do not experience consciousness the way we do. And yet, people frequently study animal behavior to help provide insight into human behavior. If you want to claim that this issue is unique to humans, so that there is no way to study any animal parallels, then you have to provide some sort of reason why.

Previous posters have pointed out to you that studies of animal behavior have gone a long way to support the idea that homosexuality is, in fact, normal and common. Yet you want to simply claim that there is no possibility that animals share this particular condition. Why? Is it a matter of brain structure? Hormone exposure in the womb? Why would those factors not affect animals?

To state what you are stating, you would have to have a definitive answer on how & why this happens. There are guesses, but no certain answer. We don't even have answers on what gender really is. What does it mean to be female or male? How much self-awareness is involved (since you are so certain that animals are insufficiently self-aware to suffer from this)?

Ok read what you just wrote again and I think you will see a blind spot on this issue.

BEHAVIOR and Consciousness are two different things. Of course we discuss behavior of animals to examine human behavior.

Gender is not a behavior.

 

[truethat]

Things are offensive depending on who says them.
Things are ignorant depending on who says them.

I see a clear pattern with you.

I hope you are outraged at all "LGBT" groups since, how dare they lump the G and the T in the same boat.

There is a great interview by Chaz Bono on the Letterman show where he discusses that he appreciates the support by the gay community but he feels that it causes confusion because Transgender has nothing to do with being gay. I'll see if I can find it for you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU7YMTJ8ntE

That's the first part, I think he discusses it in the second part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9lDuZ-KVvU&feature=related

 

[iknownothing]

This is basic ignorance. Being transgendered has nothing at all to do with homosexuality.

I suppose this is a very good example to explain to you guys why I have been so frustrated in this thread.

You are partially right, in that being a transgendered person has nothing to do with homosexuality.

But you are wrong in saying that there's no reason to compare scientific understanding of those issues. There are ways to study what is involved with sexual orientation that may also be useful to study what is involved with gender identity.

You can keep calling everyone who points this out to you ignorant. Or, you could consider that maybe you are the one who is off track. One can be completely accepting of transgender people, and of the transgender children, and still think that there are useful ways of studying why gender dysmorphia happens.

You're so busy wanting to be the hero defending transgender people, that you are doing so by using really shaky reasoning.

 

[truethat]

Why would studying sexual orientation have anything to do with studying Gender if they are two completely different things? I'm not understanding what you think will be gained by this?

 

[iknownothing]

Ok read what you just wrote again and I think you will see a blind spot on this issue.

BEHAVIOR and Consciousness are two different things. Of course we discuss behavior of animals to examine human behavior.

Gender is not a behavior.

No, the blind spot is yours.

You are the one who made the claim that animals can't experience gender dysmorphia, and you gave as your reason that they don't experience consciousness the way we do.

First, you have been shown that some animals do seem to experience some degree of consciousness.

Second, you have failed to explain why consciousness is a requirement for gender identity problems.

Third, you have not explained why the level of consciousness experienced by some animals is not sufficient to make them susceptible to gender identity problems (to whatever degree consciousness is involved, which as I just said, you have not explained).