Being transgender is hard

[Pup]

It would be great if we could all be the way we feel. If some surgery/medication//lifestyle changes can effect the differences then great; and there are many TG folks out there who work hard to be who they are. Good for them. But don't wallow in some self-aggrandizing pity/worship party. For years black-skinned Americans were treated as lesser, as second- or third-class citizens. They were not and are not lesser citizens. They fought against institutionalized discrimination and have won gains (but not the whole war). The point, though, is not that being black-skinned is hard (it is), but that it does not -expletive deleted, mods- matter to being an equal person. People are people. And if you can't sell that message, you are losing the fight.

I think you're missing the point, though, that there's a difference between wanting the privileges of another group, and feeling as if you're actually already one of that other group, whether it confers extra privileges or not.

Speaking only about transgendered people who feel as if they're the opposite sex (and not necessarily those who feel as if they're neither, both, or other combinations):

If you offered them a choice between 1) retroactively being born as the opposite sex in the same society, or 2) retroactively growing up in a different society where being transgendered was socially accepted and treatment was available to all, I expect the vast majority would pick the first option.

If you offered a black person in 1960 America a choice of 1) retroactively being born white so they could have all the advantages of white people, or 2) retroactively growing up in a society where both black and white people were respected and accepted for who they were, I expect the vast majority would pick the second option.

That's the major difference.

I dunno. Not being a member of either group, I don't want to speak for them, but I am trying to understand where they're coming from.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I've looked at Wikipedia and, if the information there is reliable, tg women are roughly evenly split between being attracted to women (35%) or bisexual (38%), with the remainder (27%) being attracted to men. Most tg men are attracted to women.

The above data does not seem to be compatible with hypotheses based on 'male' or 'female' brains, or exposure to testosterone and/or estrogen sexualizing the brain in utero.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I've looked at Wikipedia and, if the information there is reliable, tg women are roughly evenly split between being attracted to women (35%) or bisexual (38%), with the remainder (27%) being attracted to men. Most tg men are attracted to women.

The above data does not seem to be compatible with hypotheses based on 'male' or 'female' brains, or exposure to testosterone and/or estrogen sexualizing the brain in utero.

Are the regions of the brain studied the same in both homosexual and transgender studies? It could be that hormonal changes occurring at different points in the development affect different structures, or affect the same structures differently.

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

With education friends like that, tg people don't need enemies.

Thank crikey for Dessi keeping the straw out of the argument, because I was getting dangerously close to switching sides and joining Moral Majority. And I hear they are neither moral, nor a majority - so imagine how screwed I would have been!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Are the regions of the brain studied the same in both homosexual and transgender studies?

IIRC, yes. The interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3).

It could be that hormonal changes occurring at different points in the development affect different structures, or affect the same structures differently.

I agree that's a possibility. What doesn't seem plausible is the idea of tg women having 'female' brains, since far more of them report being attracted to women compared to cisgender women.

 

[Dessi]

Are there any stats on the number of tg men / women who after transition from living as women / men are attracted to women / men?

I'm interested because it has been claimed that gay men have brain structures that are similar to women, while in this thread (IIRC) it has been reported that tg men / women have brain structures similar to men / women, which would seem to be somewhat of a contradiction if tg women are mostly attracted to women.

Wikipedia says:

Research, such as that done by Walter Bockting at the University of Minnesota, suggests that the breakdown of sexualities among transsexual women is 38% bisexual, 35% attracted to women, and 27% attracted to men. (Star Tribune May 25 2008 "Myths and Facts about Transgender Issues").

I couldn't find a stat for transmen, but I've heard 95% were attracted to women.

Speaking anecdotally, I'm not sure about the numbers for tg women above since there's no figure for asexuals. (If you want to dig into details of asexuality, you'd need to classify people into one or both categories of asexual and aromantic, the first means no sexual attraction to others and the latter means no desire for romantic relationships.)

I'd say be highly skeptical of any numbers until you read source documents.

 

[Stereolab]

Dessi's pretty and I bet she's been hit on online. I wonder what the hitters would think if they found out she's transgendered.

(I'm not implying there's anything wrong with being transgendered, nor am I assuming bigotry on the hitters' part. I just bet they'd be surprised.)

 

[Dessi]

Dessi's pretty and I bet she's been hit on online. I wonder what the hitters would think if they found out she's transgendered.

Lots of people in my PFLAG group said I passed very well, they had no idea until I mentioned it myself. I get the impression that most people attracted to me probably aren't that into boobs.

Most of the time when I get that sort of attention in real life, its unwanted but very flattering. Still, it scares the living **** out of me, especially getting hit on at a bar. I carry a 6M volt stun gun and pepper spray everywhere I go.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Dessi's pretty and I bet she's been hit on online. I wonder what the hitters would think if they found out she's transgendered.

(I'm not implying there's anything wrong with being transgendered, nor am I assuming bigotry on the hitters' part. I just bet they'd be surprised.)

There's already been a number of people on this very forum that have hit on her. She attractive, even if she was born with a Y chromosome.

Edit: Even if? Despite of? Regardless of? Is there a polite way to say that?

 

[Newtons Bit]

Are the regions of the brain studied the same in both homosexual and transgender studies? It could be that hormonal changes occurring at different points in the development affect different structures, or affect the same structures differently.

My psychology professor (Dr. Holson) frequently remarked on his studies of this very thing. He claimed he could inject specific hormones, or hormone blockers, into rat fetus to turn them gay.

 

[Vorticity]

Post deleted because I thought better of it. So it goes.

Sorry for the discontinuity.

 

[Vorticity]

Off-topic:

My psychology professor (Dr. Holson)...

Hey, NM Tech. I applied for a job there once in the physics department. They never responded.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Vorticity, I think one reason any attention might be unwanted would be that i think she was talking about male attention, and she's attracted to women.

 

[Vorticity]

Vorticity, I think one reason any attention might be unwanted would be that i think she was talking about male attention, and she's attracted to women.

A simple and obvious answer. I always over-think these things.

Would but that the world were more chaotic, then my thought process would fit right in...

 

[Dessi]

When you say "I get the impression that most people attracted to me probably aren't that into boobs", do you mean that you think they're gay men, or that they are specifically attracted to tg individuals,... or that they are people like me?

I'm saying I have small boobs.

-module(me). 
-compile(export_all).

juliet() =
    receive
        {awkward, PID} -> PID ! {self(), "boobages"}
        {_, PID} -> PID ! {self(), "definitely not awkward"}
    end,
    juliet();

start() =
    J = spawn(me, juliet, []),
    J ! {awkward, self()}.

%%% syntax errors left in tact for your amusement

I don't get hit on by t-chasers or gay men. I've only ever been hit on by straight guys, gay women, but mostly other tg women. And at least once a week I get a compliment (usually from women) about my hair.

And since you mentioned it, there's nothing wrong with being predominantly attracted to androgyny rather than traditionally masculine and feminine expressions. (Just for fun, look up Andrej Pejic, wow!) I'm pretty sure there is a word for that preference, but I'm at work and not so inclined to look it up at the moment.

Why "unwanted"? I'm genuinely curious. Is it unwanted because 1) you don't wish to be "hit on" at all, ever, or 2) you don't wish to be hit on by men, or 3) you don't wish to be hit on by people who are more likely to be attracted to you because they've "detected" somehow that you're tg?

Main reason: I don't like to flirt, it makes me uncomfortable in the extreme. With guys, even more so. With guys at a bar, then it just scares the **** out of me.

Aside from a close romantic friendship with another woman, I would consider myself almost entirely aromantic. Not asexual, just aromantic. I've dated before because cultural norms pushed me into something I thought had to do, but I don't feel that way anymore, I'm not compatible with people that way and I strictly don't want or need romantic companionship with anyone.

And since I'm an attention whore slut aficionado at heart, let's just say I can't put my feeling into adequate words, its complicated, let's leave it at that

Hopefully this wasn't an inadvisable post on my part. I have had no qualms about revealing weird sexual **** about myself on these fora in the past, I just hope I haven't made anyone uncomfortable in the context of this thread. Oh well.

Don't worry, you're not being creepy

 

[Tony99]

Pandrogyne and or gender non-identity as art.
...that and I wanted to mention Genesis P-Orridge in a gender thread

 

[Alt+F4]

Wikipedia says:

I couldn't find a stat for transmen, but I've heard 95% were attracted to women.

Speaking anecdotally, I'm not sure about the numbers for tg women above since there's no figure for asexuals. (If you want to dig into details of asexuality, you'd need to classify people into one or both categories of asexual and aromantic, the first means no sexual attraction to others and the latter means no desire for romantic relationships.)

I'd say be highly skeptical of any numbers until you read source documents.

I searched around for the originial study but couldn't find it so yes we don't know if asexual folks were included. Speaking anecdotally it does seem that there is more homosexuality among trans women then there is among cis women. I'm not sure why that is but it does seem to discredit the "female brain/male brain" theory of homosexuality and transgenderism.

 

[Alt+F4]

My psychology professor (Dr. Holson) frequently remarked on his studies of this very thing. He claimed he could inject specific hormones, or hormone blockers, into rat fetus to turn them gay.

I've heard that claim before. Did your professor mention what the specific hormone was? The hormone blocker? Did he or she explain how this happens naturally in pregnant mammals?

 

[Newtons Bit]

I've heard that claim before. Did you professor mention what the specific hormone was? The hormone blocker? Did he or she explain how this happens naturally in pregnant mammals?

Probably, but I was asleep at the time.


Less in jest: I recall him saying that he can turn male rats gay by blocking testosterone at a specific point in the pregnancy. He even said that he was reasonably sure that he could prevent human males from becoming homosexual by monitoring testosterone levels in-utero at this point and adjusting as necessary. But he's opposed to that, ethically. He's an iiteresting fellow.

 

[Toke]

Probably, but I was asleep at the time.


Less in jest: I recall him saying that he can turn male rats gay by blocking testosterone at a specific point in the pregnancy. He even said that he was reasonably sure that he could prevent human males from becoming homosexual by monitoring testosterone levels in-utero at this point and adjusting as necessary. But he's opposed to that, ethically. He's an iiteresting fellow.

It sounds like something that would be easy to run test on.
Yesterday there were a program on rats getting LSD every second day for months for a study of its psychiatric uses, so rats are not in short supply.

Could funding be a problem?

(Dessi, that Andrej Pejic looks kind of cute in spite of the flatchestedness.)