Being bullied

[slingblade]

You've never needed a skirt before....

 

[TraneWreck]

Against whom are you arguing? Has anybody in this thread argued otherwise? I haven't. In fact, I have repeatedly and explicitly stated that I am not dealing in absolutes and recognize a variety of situations there there's little that can be done. I've even given examples.

[...]

I'm not sure I'd call it bullying because the treatment is merely annoying. However, I'm sure I could put on a skirt, run off to some other board and find plenty of sympathy for how I was treated for simply presenting unpopular ideas.

Off the pedestal and onto the cross, it seems.

I wonder, if we looked back over this thread, whether we could determine who made UncaYimmy's personal experience an issue...

Edit: and by the way, the specific circumstances of a 51 year old woman's workplace are as big of a variable as the Chicago projects. It's all about the power the bully holds over you. Let's see if we can hop into the impossible imagination machine and see if we can arrive at a situation that would explain why said individual couldn't respond assertively:

Hmm, perhaps that supervisor can fire her. Perhaps there are a lot of unemployed people in the country able to jump right into that void. Perhaps said woman needs the health coverage her employer provides...etc.

If someone needs employment to survive, that can be used as leverage against someone who would otherwise tell the bully to piss off.

But you seem to be the head cheerleader of the "Keepin' it Real" school of life:

 

[slingblade]

The one thing we keep hearing we can be fired for is "insubordination."

When a supervisor is as amped up as she is (which only increased when I spoke moderately to her), you aren't sure what will set her off. After my single attempt at defusing her, I let her blow. I didn't want to do anything at that moment that could make it worse, since I couldn't tell what had caused it to start with.

Discretion isn't always the better part of valor, but it's usually wise, especially when you're the only one with anything to lose...

 

[TraneWreck]

Lest this hooey about making straw men continue, let's observe from whence we came:

...In this thread there seems to be three broad categories of victims. One group got bullied. Another group got bullied, but at some point stood up to it forcefully. The third group, which is where I lump myself, either didn't get bullied or at worst had a few occasions where it was attempted and quickly squashed.

When I look at your possible courses of action, the first one is retreat. The second and third options are to ask a third party to use their power to intervene on your behalf. Nowhere did you mention dealing with the bully toe-to-toe. Nowhere did you mention self-examination to say, "Why throughout my life have I been bullied?"

[...]

Many of us explain to him that we've never encountered people like that. I, for one, have explained that I can't fathom anybody even considering doing to me some of the things he has described such as the singer sucking a lime wedge on stage, then tossing it on to my gear. And then while I'm getting it off my stuff, starting the song.

My theory is that anybody who has gotten to know me even briefly would know that there's no way they could get away with that. Even if I were so financially vulnerable that I needed the gig, the most I would do is finish the gig, get my money, then make that person regret ever having done it. Even I were far weaker physically or outnumbered, I'd find a way.

But more to the point, I believe there are those who come across as the weak ones of the herd. Bullies seek out those willing to accept the abuse. Occasionally they make the wrong judgment, but usually they are right.

So, for those of you who have endured bullying from childhood into adulthood, how much have you looked inward? I'm sure you've asked yourselves, "What did I do to deserve this?" How many of you have asked, "What it is about me that no matter where I go, bullies seek me out?" How many have asked, "In what ways do I react that keep these interactions appealing enough for the bully to repeatedly initiate them?"

There's a difference between "drawing it to you" and "being a target that will take it." I think you are clearly the latter. Your response was to take it and then to go to a higher authority - classic victim behavior. Your "meta message" is, "you're not allowed to yell at me like that because the boss says you're not" when in my opinion it should be, "I don't give a damn who you think you are, but you are not going to address me like that."

[...]

I ask because in my life I can only think of one instance where somebody yelled at me for more than 10 seconds (excluding when I pissed off people on the phone as a bill collector, which is another matter entirely). That instance was a cop, where the imbalance of power was tremendous, and I risked serious consequences if I didn't tread carefully. As it was I didn't back down in any way. I did not apologize for all the things he thought I did wrong on my motorcycle (Note: if you don't ride, don't lecture those of us who do on the safest way to avoid an accident). It lasted about 20 seconds, and he was clearly uncomfortable with the crowd that had surrounded us, so he quickly left without giving me a ticket (I didn't deserve one anyway).

Even the Ubermensch understands power differentials.

I regret that my approach did not yield the results I was hoping for. However, let me assure you that I don't jab - I slug. If I ask, "why didn't you..." I mean it as the simple question it is. If I wanted to cast aspersions on your character, I would have written, "Were you too cowardly to..." or "Anybody with even a modicum of self respect would have..." Instead I asked simple, direct questions because I do not understand why you didn't take any of the approaches that first came to my mind.

Hell, I don't understand why my wife cannot simply tell a door-to-door salesman, "I'm not interested," and shut the door. I don't understand why I've had several people over the years ask me to go with them to car dealerships. I mean, I understand that they want me to do what they can't, but I don't understand why they "can't" do it themselves.

The last time I did it, we asked for specific models of used cars in a certain price range. The first car they brought out was newer and well past the upper price limit. My friend was ready to test drive it anyway. I said, "We told you what we wanted, and that's not it. We're leaving." I took her by the arm, and we walked.

The salesman started to follow us and try to convince us. I turned to him and said, "You need to leave. Now." By the time we reached our car, the sales manager was running out to apologize. I told him, "If you want to give us another salesman who will bring out only what we ask for, we'll return. Otherwise, we're gone." He did, and things went smoothly from there.

I genuinely don't understand why some people find this so difficult.


[...]

... So, if you interpret my simple questions as slurs and jabs, I question whether you and I would agree on whether a given situation you experienced was bullying.

[...]

I thought of the things that I would have done and asked why you didn't do the same. As I said, your behavior is classic victim behavior. You allowed the person to berate you, and rather than assert your right as a human being to not be treated like that, you relied upon someone else to handle the situation for you. Your boss will likely hear the other side of the story, and I'm willing to bet it won't sound so egregious when your supervisor tells it. You'll come across as somebody overly sensitive. The supervisor may even say something like, "If it was so bad, why didn't she speak up at the time? She's just embarrassed because she screwed up, and she's whining after the fact because she's too immature to handle it like a grown up."

The boss, who didn't witness it and who probably doesn't want to devote anymore effort to this than necessary, may say something like, "Well, watch your tone with her in the future."

And thus the cycle will continue. I don't know what you think you accomplished, but I'm willing to bet not much. If you're 51 years old and still getting yelled at like a child, it's time to ask yourself why.

[...]

I find your reaction to be more classic victim behavior because you felt like I was trying to "victimize" you but failed. I never denied that adult bullying happens. In fact, I stated explicitly that it does happen. I'm trying to understand why it seems to happen to some people on a regular basis while others almost never experience it. Have you noticed that nobody so far has shared stories of adult bullying after having a childhood free of bullying or being a bully themselves? I'm not saying that never happens, but it doesn't need to be an absolute for there to be patterns.

Do you think I don't understand bullies because I was never bullied? Did you ever a classmate you barely knew stand up for you with a bully? Some kids I went to school with did, and that guy was me. Did you ever see a bully standing by his locker when some other kid walked by, drove a shoulder into the guy, then stopped and dared the bully to do something about it? That was me. Ever sit in class while a teacher bullied a student and heard another student say, "Lay off." That was me. Ever been standing in line while the guy at the head of the line berates the clerk and see somebody walk up to the guy, talk quietly, and then see the guy walk away? That was me.

...wherever there is pain, I'll be there. Wherever there's a child praying for help in the lonely night, I'll be there...

I know bullies because not only do I engage them when I can, I'll even seek them out. Always have.

What I don't understand are the victims. I'm trying to, but when I ask questions, I'm accused of ulterior motives. See below for more.

[...]

I know that. I knew that as a little kid. I have never once suggested that anybody be like me. What I have asked about and suggested are specific courses of action. People who are nothing like me have done the same things I have done.

Some people are timid. I get that. Some are afraid. I get that. Hell, I've been afraid. You think my heart wasn't pounding when my boss told me to do what she said or go home? Of course it was. Fear is an emotion just like anger. If you can speak calmly and not lash out when you're angry, why can't you speak calmly and stand up for yourself when you're scared? Nobody likes being scared. It's something we have to deal with.

Is it hard? Damn right it is. Is it easier for me than others? At the risk of being accused of bragging or whatever, I have to honestly say that yes, it's easier for me. In pack animals there are alpha males (and females, not being sexist here). Are they taught how to be alphas? I don't think so. You can look at a litter of puppies and pick out the alphas and the weak ones. We all have different temperaments, and those are evident in infancy (look at reactions to loud noises).

One year my co-workers sent a man in a gorilla suit to scare me. Out of the blue this hulking, dark, hairy creature jumped into my office. It scared the crap out of me. Somebody snapped a photo of me at that exact moment. Later a few people pointed out that while I had scooted my chair back (flight), I was actually standing up and making fists. They thought it was funny.

I bring this up because that was my natural reaction. I don't take credit for it. I didn't decide on that reaction, I just reacted in an instinctive way. If America's Funniest Home Videos is any indicator, that's not a common reaction. Sometimes you see a person strike back, but most of the time it's pure flight.

And on and on.

Over and over you have made the argument that "victim" behavior brings on bullying. Your alpha behavior (which evidently consists of hollering at car salesmen, speaking with inimitable gravitas when someone is rude at the supermarket, and clenching you fists at people in gorilla suits) let's everyone know that you aren't to be messed with.

You are making an argument from arrogance. Since the only evidence you presented (save a flurry of studies that don't remotely support the causal claims you're making) rests entirely on you memoirs, here.

But you don't want people to try and be like you, because frankly, they can't. But they should try and stand up, except when it's a kid at school that tried to fight back and was harassed even more.

But, of course, the only time you couldn't fully defend your interests was when 1) you were on your motorcycle and not near a phone booth and 2) you were confronted by someone with vastly more power.

Huh, I wonder what the lesson is there?

Now, if you can explain how I'm supposed to respond to that without "personalizing" the argument, I'd love to hear it.

 

[qayak]

Edit: and by the way, the specific circumstances of a 51 year old woman's workplace are as big of a variable as the Chicago projects. It's all about the power the bully holds over you. Let's see if we can hop into the impossible imagination machine and see if we can arrive at a situation that would explain why said individual couldn't respond assertively:

Hmm, perhaps that supervisor can fire her. Perhaps there are a lot of unemployed people in the country able to jump right into that void. Perhaps said woman needs the health coverage her employer provides...etc.

If someone needs employment to survive, that can be used as leverage against someone who would otherwise tell the bully to piss off.

What you say is exactly right but that doesn't change the choices of the person being bullied. Essentially they have two choices, deal with it or don't deal with it.

If you do not deal with it, the bullying is not going to g away. Not dealing with it is tatamount to condoning it and you are going to have to put up with anything that comes your way. If you choose to not deal with it, there isn't much point in complaining about it. You could eventually be disnmissed from your job anyway simply because the manager detests you.

If you deal with it, yes you could be dismissed. Of course, you could also effectively deal with the problem. You will only know if you deal with it. Also, you will have the satisfaction of having not accepted the behaviour of an asshat. You may also have a lawsuit if you handle the situation properly. Perhaps by recording one of the tirades of the manager.

All the perks of employment have no bearing on the situation. If you feel these perks are too important to risk by standing up for yourself then you pretty much have to accept that as the price you are willing to pay for those perks. If that is the case, stop whining.

 

[rjh01]

<snip>
If you deal with it, yes you could be dismissed. Of course, you could also effectively deal with the problem. You will only know if you deal with it. Also, you will have the satisfaction of having not accepted the behaviour of an asshat. You may also have a lawsuit if you handle the situation properly. Perhaps by recording one of the tirades of the manager.
<snip>

You could sue for wrongful dismissal, however there is no guarantee that you will win. Then you are out of a job and a bad reputation for suing old employers. Not good for one's resume.

Whatever you do to deal with a bully for a supervisor could backfire badly very easily. The stakes are high. How to deal with it depends on the situation. Does the supervisor bully everyone or just one person? How serious is the bullying? Is it in fact bullying or is it the supervisor knows no better (I have dealt with that myself). What is the relationship between the supervisor and their manager? Plus heaps more.

 

[TraneWreck]

What you say is exactly right but that doesn't change the choices of the person being bullied. Essentially they have two choices, deal with it or don't deal with it.

[...]

All the perks of employment have no bearing on the situation. If you feel these perks are too important to risk by standing up for yourself then you pretty much have to accept that as the price you are willing to pay for those perks. If that is the case, stop whining.

At risk of going on a tangent concerning the nature of the word "choice," I will just focus on the matter at hand.

This began with a post where someone described bullying at work. Her supervisor abused her unnecessarily. Obviously she could have "kept it real," but she valued her employment.

The response was basically and extended rant calling her a wimp.

That is all distraction from the point: this supervisor was a total ******* who abused his/her control over the employees. This is bullying behavior.

Yes, it's slightly different in so far as adults are generally more liberated that kids, but the employment was all the leverage needed to engage in bullying. She shouldn't be forced to chose between employment and suffering abuse. The abuser is the problem.

 

[slingblade]

When one decides to sue in such a case, are the attorneys provided at no cost?

It's really easy to suggest. I wonder if the reality is as simple?

Oh, and by the way: I did deal with it. I still have my job, and she's gone on to behave poorly towards other people. As I said, I never felt singled out. I only felt next.

 

[TraneWreck]

When one decides to sue in such a case, are the attorneys provided at no cost?

I've never heard of free attorneys for harassment suits, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. An attorney might take the case on a fee arrangement where they collect a percentage of the award.

But, of course, you might lose that case, the awarded damages might not be worth the effort, and it might hamper your ability to find new employment. All things considered, you handled it well.

The internet is full of people ready to explain how heroically they would have handled a given situation. Just look up the reactions to school shootings: "I would have grabbed a chair, done a backflip over the gunner, and hit him over the head..."

No one knows what was at stake except you.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Lest this hooey about making straw men continue, let's observe from whence we came:

You are trying to assign to me absolutes that I am telling you that I do not believe exist. Now, you can continue to insist that I am now lying about what I said, or you could try to read what I wrote in the light in which I am now clarifying it.

Personally, I don't think it needs clarifying. When I say "in this thread" that "I" see three "broad categories" there is simply no way a reasonable person can conclude that I mean that every victim in the world most be in some narrowly defined construct on which professionals agree. When I later explicitly state that there are "no absolutes" and discuss situations where nothing can done, then for anyone to assign extreme positions to me is simply faulty reasoning.

Over and over you have made the argument that "victim" behavior brings on bullying.

I never said any such absolutist statement.

Your alpha behavior (which evidently consists of hollering at car salesmen,

Another lie.

Now, if you can explain how I'm supposed to respond to that without "personalizing" the argument, I'd love to hear it.

That's really a (poor) reflection on you. When you have something of substance offer, perhaps I'll respond.

 

[qayak]

Yes, it's slightly different in so far as adults are generally more liberated that kids, but the employment was all the leverage needed to engage in bullying. She shouldn't be forced to chose between employment and suffering abuse. The abuser is the problem.

No one is disagreeing that the abuser is the problem and no one is claiming that the situation is fair. If it were, there wouldn't be a problem.

You have not given any reason as to why the abused doesn't have to decide whether to deal with this or not deal with this. Those are really the only two choices and a decision must be made before anything else can happen. Not making the choice is making the choice.

I have not advocated any specific plan and yes, it would be complicated but nothing happens until the abused decides to do something about it and carries through with that decision.

I have stood up for people being bullied at work in the past but I no longer do that. In every instance when I have stood up for them they have folded like cheap carnival tents leaving me hung out to dry. My approach now is to take the person aside and tell them that should they decide to stand up for themselves I will stand behind them 100% but until then, I'm not doing anything. In every instance those people have failed to do anything except complain.

Bullies rely on people not fighting back. You might not change the situation if you do act but you definitely won't change it if you don't.

 

[slingblade]

I've never heard of free attorneys for harassment suits, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. An attorney might take the case on a fee arrangement where they collect a percentage of the award.

But, of course, you might lose that case, the awarded damages might not be worth the effort, and it might hamper your ability to find new employment. All things considered, you handled it well.

The internet is full of people ready to explain how heroically they would have handled a given situation. Just look up the reactions to school shootings: "I would have grabbed a chair, done a backflip over the gunner, and hit him over the head..."

No one knows what was at stake except you.

I never doubted how I handled it, and your support is appreciated. Thank you.

Yeah, the Internet is full of "heroes" who always know exactly the right thing to do, even if they weren't there, and don't even know if they have all the info, which usually, they don't. They can't. Not even the people involved have it all. But I certainly have more of it than any Internet Hero has.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I never doubted how I handled it...

What a shame. People like that end up in their 50s being treated the same way they were treated when they were 10. But, hey, at least they have the satisfaction of knowing that what they do works. <cough>

 

[slingblade]

What a shame. People like that end up in their 50s being treated the same way they were treated when they were 10. But, hey, at least they have the satisfaction of knowing that what they do works. <cough>

Wow, I feel bad for those people, and am glad I'm not one of them.

Mister, this isn't working, as much as you'd like to think it is, or as hard as you have to convince yourself that it is. I am not sitting here kicking myself for my behavior. I'm proud of it. I didn't yell, I didn't let my impulsive nature rule me, but controlled it, and I behaved like an adult. The only one in the room, actually.

Are you somehow convinced that what you think of me affects my opinion of myself? You don't really think you're that important, do you? I have to say, the more you tell me I failed, the more successful I know I've been. As I said, I know your motivation.

But keep trying, if it satisfies some urge you have. And wear a longer skirt next time. You have cankles.



(and this is where he takes my response to him as proof that he taught me how to stand up to bullies, since I stood up so nicely to him. Wait for misplaced, laughable credit-hogging in 3...2...)

 

[TraneWreck]

You are trying to assign to me absolutes that I am telling you that I do not believe exist. Now, you can continue to insist that I am now lying about what I said, or you could try to read what I wrote in the light in which I am now clarifying it.

[...]

That's really a (poor) reflection on you. When you have something of substance offer, perhaps I'll respond.

Hey, your words are up there. I didn't lie about anything, everything is there for the whole (subset of this) world to appreciate.

Your point, in so far as one can be extracted from your auto-hagiography, is trivial at best. You haven't even bothered to support the causal claims latent in your over-generalizations, and we're left with lots of tears about you being misunderstood.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Mister, this isn't working, as much as you'd like to think it is, or as hard as you have to convince yourself that it is. I am not sitting here kicking myself for my behavior. I'm proud of it. I didn't yell, I didn't let my impulsive nature rule me, but controlled it, and I behaved like an adult. The only one in the room, actually.

Some adults do not allow themselves to be verbally berated without at least speaking up in their own defense. In fact, many would argue that we only expect children and people in strict hierarchies (military) to allow themselves to be spoken to like that. Adults should speak up.

Some also believe that verbal altercations should be resolved between those involved and consider it childish when one accepts it without complaint and then whines to the boss about it. The phrase "grow a pair" comes to mind.

I, for one, don't believe for a moment that you controlled your impulsive nature. In fact it's a sitcom cliche when somebody acts all tough after the fact. The simple fact is you took the route of least resistance and risk and pretend like it's all about self control and saving your job. Excuse me if I don't believe you.

Are you somehow convinced that what you think of me affects my opinion of myself? You don't really think you're that important, do you? I have to say, the more you tell me I failed, the more successful I know I've been. As I said, I know your motivation.

This is starting to get a little creepy. You're nothing more than a screen name on a message board to me. All this talk of knowing my secret motivation is a little freaky. Truth is, I barely recognize your name. Other than engaging you in two recent threads, I don't recall much about you. Seriously.

 

[slingblade]

Some adults do not allow themselves to be verbally berated without at least speaking up in their own defense. In fact, many would argue that we only expect children and people in strict hierarchies (military) to allow themselves to be spoken to like that. Adults should speak up.

Some also believe that verbal altercations should be resolved between those involved and consider it childish when one accepts it without complaint and then whines to the boss about it. The phrase "grow a pair" comes to mind.

I, for one, don't believe for a moment that you controlled your impulsive nature. In fact it's a sitcom cliche when somebody acts all tough after the fact. The simple fact is you took the route of least resistance and risk and pretend like it's all about self control and saving your job. Excuse me if I don't believe you.

Does it matter somehow if you do or don't?

This is starting to get a little creepy. You're nothing more than a screen name on a message board to me. All this talk of knowing my secret motivation is a little freaky. Truth is, I barely recognize your name. Other than engaging you in two recent threads, I don't recall much about you. Seriously.

Oh, good, I was starting to get that creepy stalker vibe from all your posts about me. Are your urges all gone now, or do you still have more? I have a shovel you can use if your trowel isn't digging deeply enough.

 

[Helen]

Some also believe that verbal altercations should be resolved between those involved and consider it childish when one accepts it without complaint and then whines to the boss about it. The phrase "grow a pair" comes to mind.

Well, having spent some time on this forum, I know that some people will believe anything... Other people live in the real world, and have to adjust to that.

And although I think Slingblade would look even more fetching if she grew a pair, I really don't think she needs to. She already has far more real courage than any alpha male I have ever met.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Well, having spent some time on this forum, I know that some people will believe anything... Other people live in the real world, and have to adjust to that.

Let me just try to get this straight. You think it's a ridiculous notion for some people to be against the idea of allowing yourself to be yelled out without objecting to the person doing the yelling and then complaining about it later to an authority figure?

Me? Well, I can certainly see that there are times where that might be the best course of action. I would consider it the exception rather than the rule.

Funny, everybody seemed to think LibraryLady did the right thing in this story. Too bad she can't go back in time and keep her mouth shut.

I've seen bullying teachers as well. As a matter of fact, one of my proudest moments and the start of healing from bullying was an example.

There was a boy in our class, quite bright but very odd. With hindsight and new information, I'm pretty sure he had Asperger's Syndrome, poor kid. Mr. Foxman, and I use his real name, was explaining how elections work, and said, and this is exactly how I remember it, "Let's take a vote to see if S. is an idiot."

I heard someone say, "Mr. Foxman, you're the idiot." Then I realized I had said it. He threw me out of the class, and since it was last period, I just walked home. My mother was a little surprised to see me and I told her what had happened. She told me that I got any grief for it the next day to call her immediately.

The next morning, sure enough, in the list of kids who had to report to the Vice Principal's office, there was my name.

When I went into the office, the VP, whose name escapes me, looked at me and said, "This does not sound like you. Tell me what happened." And I told him. After a pause, which I then took to be him thinking deeply, but now think was a moment to control his anger, he said, "Go to class, and don't worry."

And although I think Slingblade would look even more fetching if she grew a pair, I really don't think she needs to. She already has far more real courage than any alpha male I have ever met.

You need to get out more.

 

[Helen]

Sometimes, it takes a lot more courage to just grin and bear it. Somteimes, that is the only realistic course of action. Surely that can't be in dispute?