Being bullied

[Mr.D]

If you do not want to see my comments, then put me on ignore. This is a public forum, and I will post my comments within the bounds of the Membership Agreement. If you feel I have violated the MA, report my posts. While you may not find any value in my comments about your situation, maybe somebody else in a similar situation will.

As noted in my post, my experience being bullied happened decades ago when I had neither the experience nor the wisdom to deal with it; so your initial post on this thread presumably wasn't meant to address me.

Nevertheless, I will respond.

Do you really think anyone here buys your self-righteous "just trying to help" crap? You saw a bunch of people commiserating and sharing bad situations and decided that you were going to be some sort of guru and dispense your "invaluable" wisdom from upon high. Now that would be annoying enough, but this is the JREF, so it's not like nobody here has ever seen a know-it-all poster before; but to it with such a self-congratulatory, arrogant, attitude and self-importance on such a personal thread about bullying?

Please. It's all about you and how much better you are and you know it. I know it too, and so you get no adulation or thank yous from me.

Congratulations though - you did provoke a response; You are now the one and only inhabitant of my ignore list. I know you may not care or find any value in my response, but maybe somebody else on this thread will.

 

[slingblade]

I see you persist in trying to bully me into not speaking my mind on a public forum in which we both in theory have equal standing. I did nothing to deserve this type of treatment or draw it to me. It's not my fault that in a public discussion you are not comfortable with my comments about your opinions yet you expect me to quietly accept your negative comments about my opinions and do as you say without question.

I wonder why you do that?

To get you to prove my points for me, which you're doing admirably.

 

[Senex]

I've debated about posting my story here...

I'm sorry to read that. My parents may have made mistakes but they always had my best interests in mind. Minimal problems have slowed me -- you are doing great.

The more I read here the more I realise I don't know adversity.

 

[Uncayimmy]

As noted in my post, my experience being bullied happened decades ago when I had neither the experience nor the wisdom to deal with it; so your initial post on this thread presumably wasn't meant to address me.

My initial post in this thread was made a week ago. Are you referring to that or my recent posts? Since you're ignoring me, I don't suppose you'll answer.

As for not being "equipped" to handle it, I have two sons, ages 4 and 2 1/2. I'm doing what I can to "equip" them already. When A comes to me complaining that B won't "share" a toy, quite often it's because A has demanded it rather than asked B for a turn. I want B to stand up for himself and not simply give it up because someone demands it or tries to take it by force. I want him to hold on to what's his. At the same time I want A to learn that demanding and taking by force is not the answer. I tell him to ask B if he can have a turn. This, I hope, teaches him to confront people and resolve issues on his own instead of turning to authority figures to intervene. I then expect B to share so long as B has had a fair amount time with said toy, and far more often than not, B shares like he should.

I have no studies to back me up on this, but I think my approach in some small or even large way reduces the chances of either child being a bully or a victim.

Do you really think anyone here buys your self-righteous "just trying to help" crap? You saw a bunch of people commiserating and sharing bad situations and decided that you were going to be some sort of guru and dispense your "invaluable" wisdom from upon high.

If people want to commiserate, they can do it in Community. This is a forum for discussing social issues. I would think that LibraryLady, who is a moderator and regular participant in Community, considered this when she started the thread in this forum.

 

[Greyman]

As for not being "equipped" to handle it, I have two sons, ages 4 and 2 1/2. I'm doing what I can to "equip" them already. When A comes to me complaining that B won't "share" a toy, quite often it's because A has demanded it rather than asked B for a turn. I want B to stand up for himself and not simply give it up because someone demands it or tries to take it by force. I want him to hold on to what's his. At the same time I want A to learn that demanding and taking by force is not the answer. I tell him to ask B if he can have a turn. This, I hope, teaches him to confront people and resolve issues on his own instead of turning to authority figures to intervene. I then expect B to share so long as B has had a fair amount time with said toy, and far more often than not, B shares like he should.

I have no studies to back me up on this, but I think my approach in some small or even large way reduces the chances of either child being a bully or a victim.

As you live in Phoenix your children will most likely not have to deal with the major bullying due to the large class sizes. However if they did they would most likely become targets due to this upbringing. It is pure 100% cognitive dissonance. Keep it, but don't fight for it.

Asking a bully to share does not work.

Since they will presumably know that you won't help them (an inference from all of your previous comments) and that they shouldn't rely on others to help them in any case, they will have no recourse for action.

I am all for unfiltered truth and letting people know where they can stuff it in adult life when applicable, but adult rules of engagement do not apply in the school yard.

 

[Helen]

As for not being "equipped" to handle it, I have two sons, ages 4 and 2 1/2. I'm doing what I can to "equip" them already. When A comes to me complaining that B won't "share" a toy, quite often it's because A has demanded it rather than asked B for a turn. I want B to stand up for himself and not simply give it up because someone demands it or tries to take it by force. I want him to hold on to what's his. At the same time I want A to learn that demanding and taking by force is not the answer. I tell him to ask B if he can have a turn. This, I hope, teaches him to confront people and resolve issues on his own instead of turning to authority figures to intervene. I then expect B to share so long as B has had a fair amount time with said toy, and far more often than not, B shares like he should.

I have no studies to back me up on this, but I think my approach in some small or even large way reduces the chances of either child being a bully or a victim.

That's good, UncaYimmy, but to me that's just part of normal child rearing. It certainly was part of mine. It didn't help at all when I encountered my bully. You seem to have a very determined picture of what bullying is like, and what a bully's victim is like. I don't think you are right.

And standing up for yourself, as you call it, is not always possible. Besides, you shouldn't have to, should you? To be timid, or afraid of confrontation, is not a crime. Bullying is still the fault of the bully.

We are not all like you.

 

[Uncayimmy]

As you Live in Phoenix your children will most likely not have to deal with the major bullying due to the large class sizes.

Huh? Studies show that class size has little relation to bullying.
http://eche2010.abstractsubmit.org/presentations/361/
http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/e12011405.pdf

However if they did they would most likely become targets due to this upbringing. It is pure 100% cognitive dissonance. Keep it, but don't fight for it.

Keep it but don't fight for it? You mean, don't let others steal from you and don't steal from others? That's cognitive dissonance? I call it do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Asking a bully to share does not work.

Asking a selfish person to share does not work either. So what? What does asking a bully to share have to do with being bullied? If somebody doesn't share, they don't make a good friend. Or shouldn't.

Since they will presumably know that you won't help them (an inference from all of your previous comments) and that they shouldn't rely on others to help them in any case, they will have no recourse for action.

What a crock. Really and truly. Do you have kids? I ask because it doesn't seem like you have any real knowledge of just how much interaction you have with children.

First off, I do help them, each and every time. I give them good advice that results in them having a turn with a toy. The old give a man a fish versus teaching him to fish routine. What I teach them in this instance is to use their skills to address the situation. That's self-reliance.

I also said that the other child almost always shares. Why do you think that is? Sharing is something you teach children. I didn't want to expand this beyond the topic at hand, but it seems I need to. If Zane just picked up the tambourine and Tibi decides he immediately wants it, then it's okay of Zane says no. Tibi will then turn to me wondering why his request for sharing didn't work that time. I explain that Zane hasn't had his turn yet. This teaches them that while sharing is a good thing, they are not obligated to give up something simply because somebody asks for it.

If Zane has been playing with the tambourine for a few minutes and Tibi has waited patiently, asked for a turn, then been rebuffed, Tibi will again come back to me because he's confused about what he's learned. I then explain to both of them that Zane has had his turn, and that we're a family and we share things.

I'd like to think that because of this consistent lesson, they have both learned to wait, ask for turns, and share willingly. All of the adults who come into contact with my boys have commented on their willingness to share with each other and others.

But what about people outside our family? That's another matter. Nobody else in the world has an obligation to share with anybody else. At the park Zane used to ask us if he could play with another kid's ball (or whatever). We explained that he needed to ask the boy. If he says no, then you can't play with it. Zane actually used to repeat this to us whenever he would see something somebody else was playing with, even if he didn't want it. It was kind of cute.

Eventually they will learn that some people won't share, and hopefully they won't hang out with those kinds of people. It's not my obligation as an adult to make some strange kid share his toy with my boy. When other children ask my kids to share, they are usually pretty good about it. Sometimes they tell the other kid they can play with it in a little bit.

Beyond the issue of sharing, as a parent I have to deal with my children in numerous other areas of life. Your notion that I am teaching them that I won't help them is simply ludicrous. I am their father. I wield all sorts of power and authority. When they are scared, who do you think they come to? When they are confused, who do you think they talk to? When they are curious, who do you think they ask? When they want to learn how to do something, who do you think teaches them?

As a parent I am constantly faced with the choice of holding their hand or helping them stand on their own. When they are infants, you dress them. As they get older, you assist them getting dressed. Maybe you help them get their feet in the right leg holes, then let them pull up their britches until they get stuck around the butt. Eventually they learn to pull it up over their butt. Eventually they learn to get their feet in the right leg holes and can do their pants all by themselves. They are excited by these small accomplishments, and you're teaching them to be self-sufficient. At the same time maybe they are really tired or upset and want a little help getting dressed just because they want to get babied a bit, so you lend a hand. It feels good.

But at some point you tell them, "You're a big kid. You can get dressed all by yourself." If you're fortunate, instead of feeling rejected, he feesl like a big kid and begins to take pride in it. Some parents will want to always help their kids get dressed whenever the kid asks. That's their choice, and I'm not going to criticize that.

I will offer that a parent should consider all aspects of their child's temperament in making decisions like this. It's one thing for an otherwise confident kid with good interpersonal skills to enjoy little moments like this. It's quite another if the child lacks confidence in himself. Maybe a little more independence and self-reliance is in order, and something as seemingly innocuous as getting dressed on his own will help him. That's something only those very close to the situation can judge.

I am all for unfiltered truth and letting people know where they can stuff it in adult life when applicable, but adult rules of engagement do not apply in the school yard.

I would disagree, but your statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Suffice it to say that skills learned in childhood apply to adulthood. The one skill that children learn in school that does not transfer well to adulthood is relying on the teacher to resolve interpersonal conflicts. Fortunately, in my experiences with teachers, both as a child and as an adult, they do try to teach children to resolve issues on their own and will intervene when necessary. In preschool and daycare they teach kids who are being "bullied" (pushed, for example) to put up a hand and say firmly, "No! Stop." Of course, when this doesn't work, the adult should intervene. And no technique, teacher or child is perfect. Life's messy.

 

[Helen]

So what about all the children who do not have you as their parent? Should they just grin and bear the bullying, if their parents have not taught them how to avoid it?

My darling foster child, who was constantly told by her mother during all of their six years toghether, that she was useless, has never stood up to anyone, and never will. She knows in theory that she could, but she never will. What of her? She is already very good at blaming herself for most things in life, so she will readily take on your suggestion that the answers are to be found within her.

And I don't really think that most of us here, who have related our experiences of being bullied, are talking about being pushed.

 

[Uncayimmy]

That's good, UncaYimmy, but to me that's just part of normal child rearing. It certainly was part of mine. It didn't help at all when I encountered my bully. You seem to have a very determined picture of what bullying is like, and what a bully's victim is like. I don't think you are right.

I have stated already that there are no absolutes. There are patterns and common behaviors. If there weren't, we wouldn't be labeling people bullies and victims. It's all a matter of degree.

Do you think I don't understand bullies because I was never bullied? Did you ever a classmate you barely knew stand up for you with a bully? Some kids I went to school with did, and that guy was me. Did you ever see a bully standing by his locker when some other kid walked by, drove a shoulder into the guy, then stopped and dared the bully to do something about it? That was me. Ever sit in class while a teacher bullied a student and heard another student say, "Lay off." That was me. Ever been standing in line while the guy at the head of the line berates the clerk and see somebody walk up to the guy, talk quietly, and then see the guy walk away? That was me.

I know bullies because not only do I engage them when I can, I'll even seek them out. Always have.

What I don't understand are the victims. I'm trying to, but when I ask questions, I'm accused of ulterior motives. See below for more.

And standing up for yourself, as you call it, is not always possible. Besides, you shouldn't have to, should you? To be timid, or afraid of confrontation, is not a crime. Bullying is still the fault of the bully.

I never said it was always possible. The fact that it's not always possible doesn't mean that it's never possible.

As for the bully being at "fault" on a moral level, I honestly don't see how that's relevant. Bullies are bad. I'm all for doing whatever we can as parents and authority figures to prevent bullies from being "groomed" and to prevent them from ever bullying anybody, but even in Star Trek they still had bullies. Learning to deal with them is an important life skill, and learning what behaviors help a bully select you as a target and continue to select you as a target is something worth knowing.

We are not all like you.

I know that. I knew that as a little kid. I have never once suggested that anybody be like me. What I have asked about and suggested are specific courses of action. People who are nothing like me have done the same things I have done.

Some people are timid. I get that. Some are afraid. I get that. Hell, I've been afraid. You think my heart wasn't pounding when my boss told me to do what she said or go home? Of course it was. Fear is an emotion just like anger. If you can speak calmly and not lash out when you're angry, why can't you speak calmly and stand up for yourself when you're scared? Nobody likes being scared. It's something we have to deal with.

Is it hard? Damn right it is. Is it easier for me than others? At the risk of being accused of bragging or whatever, I have to honestly say that yes, it's easier for me. In pack animals there are alpha males (and females, not being sexist here). Are they taught how to be alphas? I don't think so. You can look at a litter of puppies and pick out the alphas and the weak ones. We all have different temperaments, and those are evident in infancy (look at reactions to loud noises).

One year my co-workers sent a man in a gorilla suit to scare me. Out of the blue this hulking, dark, hairy creature jumped into my office. It scared the crap out of me. Somebody snapped a photo of me at that exact moment. Later a few people pointed out that while I had scooted my chair back (flight), I was actually standing up and making fists. They thought it was funny.

I bring this up because that was my natural reaction. I don't take credit for it. I didn't decide on that reaction, I just reacted in an instinctive way. If America's Funniest Home Videos is any indicator, that's not a common reaction. Sometimes you see a person strike back, but most of the time it's pure flight.

Short of some serious mental reconditioning, somebody who doesn't naturally do that won't do it. I would probably have to suffer a traumatic event for me to lose that instinctive reaction. So, yeh, I get that I'm just not like most people and certainly not like most victims of bullying.

But we're not dogs. We can learn new behaviors. We can learn to overcome our emotions. We teach our children this from birth - otherwise we'd all be tantrum-throwing thieves who never shared anything with anybody and only cared about ourselves. Obviously, it's a matter of degree. No matter how hard I've tried to overcome my fear of heights, I can't make myself sit on a cliff with my feet dangling over. I can put one foot to the edge and keep the other foot back a few feet, which took a lot of effort. My heart still pounds, I still get dizzy, and I sweat profusely. So when I say "overcome" notice I didn't modify it with "entirely."

So, if you're scared, timid, hate confrontation or whatever, I can relate. I'm sure for some there's very little they can do without an enormous amount of effort and diligence, but that doesn't mean nobody can try to find a way to use some of the techniques I've suggested. People with serious anger management issues can get better. Most will never be the kind, even-keeled person that I perceive LibraryLady to be, but that doesn't mean they have to be Idi Amin.

 

[Lolly]

So, if you're scared, timid, hate confrontation or whatever, I can relate. I'm sure for some there's very little they can do without an enormous amount of effort and diligence, but that doesn't mean nobody can try to find a way to use some of the techniques I've suggested.

I was a painfully shy child, scared, timid and hating confrontation, but I was never bullied as a child. I don't think that you can just assume that victims are "chosen" because of their personalities or other traits, nor that the reason you were not bullied was because you stood up for yourself. I suspect that the dynamics are not that simple, and probably vary from case to case anyway. I don't think that saying "oh, all you had to do was X, like I did, and it wouldn't have happened to you" is helpful.

 

[Helen]

I don't know where to start, I've written a few lines, sighed, and deleted. And done it over and over.

You say you can't understand the victims, and I think that is the problem; you are assuming that there there are common traits in those who are bullied. I think you are wrong.

I am not timid. I am not esily scared, I am not afraid of confrontation. I never was, not now, not as a child. And yet I was bullied. Never before, never since, but during seven school years, I was bullied constantly. Not physically, but by being completely excluded from the rest of the class. Nothing I did helped, certainly not standing up for myself. After I had done that a couple of times, the rumours about me started, and everything got worse.

I am not the only one to have experienced this. Quite the opposite.

 

[Uncayimmy]

So what about all the children who do not have you as their parent? Should they just grin and bear the bullying, if their parents have not taught them how to avoid it?

Wow. There's a huge disconnect between what I think I'm saying and what people are hearing. The last thing they should do is grin and bear it because that's only going to encourage more bullying. I thought I was pretty clear about that. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.

If you want to give me some specifics, I'll offer my best advice, and you can explain to me why you think it's not good advice. Honestly, I'll listen. But please don't give me some extreme such as a kid in a wheelchair faced with a couple of bullies several years older who keep flicking his ear with their fingers. I feel horrible for a child like that and short of an authority figure or some other kids stepping in, I'm gonna say there's not much the kid can do. It's sad the world is like that, and fortunately in the USA at least we have laws and systems in place to help those people. I never said relying on a third party is never the right course of action. I'm saying that in many cases there are other better approaches to be attempted first.

My darling foster child, who was constantly told by her mother during all of their six years toghether, that she was useless, has never stood up to anyone, and never will. She knows in theory that she could, but she never will. What of her? She is already very good at blaming herself for most things in life, so she will readily take on your suggestion that the answers are to be found within her.

I know nothing about you or your situation, but based on what you've said, you're reinforcing her mother's beliefs if you believe she will "never" stand up to anyone. If you always stand up for her on her behalf, you'll be reinforcing her belief that she can't. Maybe you're right and she will never, ever in a million years stand up for herself in any situation whatsoever. I doubt that.

So, I'd try to help in whatever ways I could. I'm not going to tell her to simply stand up to a bully. I'm going to start with the small stuff. For example, if she orders mashed potatoes and the waiter brings her fries, that plate is going back to the kitchen. My ultimate goal would be for her to say to the waiter, "I ordered mashed potatoes. Can you bring me some, please?" But if she's really far gone, that might be a stretch.

So what do I do? Maybe I say, "My daughter didn't want fries. What did you want, dear?" Hopefully I can get her to say "mashed potatoes" (hopefully to the waiter, but to me would be a good start). If she can't do that yet, I'd say, "You wanted mashed potatoes, right dear?" Hopefully I can get a yes or a head nod. If I can't get that, I get us both some professional help.

It's a step. If you can send an order back, it doesn't mean you're ready to face bullies, but I'm pretty confident that such a small step is a step in the right direction. So maybe over time she builds enough confidence to where she's not a likely target. In the meantime I teach her other coping skills, and that will include going to authority figures.

And I don't really think that most of us here, who have related our experiences of being bullied, are talking about being pushed.

My first post in this thread was to somebody who said, "Any 'joke' being made at another's expense is most certainly not in any way funny." I next jumped in in response to a 51 year old woman who was yelled at for three to four minutes by her supervisor. I asked my questions specifically of her. Pushing would be an escalation from the things I have commented on directly.

There's a wide range of behavior called bullying, a wide range of ways to deal with it, and a wide range of personalities in victims. If you can't deal with getting yelled at, you're probably not going to be able to deal with getting hit, and you're more likely to be a target.

Thing is, we both want the same thing. Attacking the problem by dealing with the bullies is a must, no doubt about that. If I didn't understand how painful it was, I wouldn't be offering ways for victims to help themselves. Unlike the gym teacher in LibraryLady's story, I'm not saying the victims are provoking the attacks or the parent telling the kid it's just part of growing up. I'm trying to find ways to help these kids either not get singled out in the first place or to break the cycle. If I could beat the living snot out of every bully every single time they attacked a kid, I would, but authority figures can't be everywhere all the time.

In every bullying incident, there at least two people there. One of them is the victim. If my ideas can help some of them some of the time without hurting them, isn't that a good thing?

 

[Greyman]

@Uncayimmy

I thought there was a link already posted above that had higher population schools and classes showing less frequency of bullying. *Shrug* minor point and I may be completely wrong. I'll have to re-read.

Obviously I misconstrued what you had posted. The meaning I took personally from your collected posts in this thread is that one should stand up for themselves and not look to others for assistance, that was the whole of your advice. As I do not know you from Adam I can only infer your interactions with others and children from the words you've placed here.

Even given the example of your children all I could make out was that you told them fighting is bad and they should keep what they have if being assaulted. That's where I saw the dissonance, if one can't fight to keep something but they're supposed keep it anyway... This is also where I saw the giant target of ineffectual resistance being painted.

With your expansion on the direction you give your children I can see that this is not the path you are guiding them down.

As to the sharing, it was a comment highlighting basically how poorly an example of sharing relates to bullying. At least it did in my head.

And my final comment, yes things learned in school do translate to adulthood but the rules of adulthood to not go backwards. That I deal directly with harassing individuals in a reasoned manner because I have the experience and tools to do so does not mean that children can. Even the ones that do have the necessary tools often have the Duplo version that carries no weight.

One thing I would like to point out is that severe bullying is not equivalent to a disagreement with a neighbor, angry boss or similar everyday conflict. It is more akin to being mugged daily or paying "protection" money to the local gang, in those cases there is an adult analogue of the teacher on the playground and they are called Police Officers. I certainly don't want to instill the idea that one should be handling these issues on their own.

 

[Helen]

I'm sorry, UY, in my quest to keep it brief, I'm often completely unintelligible; I have been trying, by example, to show that there are a great many situations where standing up to a bully does not solve the problem. I did, and it got worse, others can't, for many dissimilar reasons...

 

[Uncayimmy]

I was a painfully shy child, scared, timid and hating confrontation, but I was never bullied as a child. I don't think that you can just assume that victims are "chosen" because of their personalities or other traits, nor that the reason you were not bullied was because you stood up for yourself. I suspect that the dynamics are not that simple, and probably vary from case to case anyway. I don't think that saying "oh, all you had to do was X, like I did, and it wouldn't have happened to you" is helpful.

Well, Lolly, why don't you show me where I said any of those things?

Here's one of the first things I wrote in this thread: One common but certainly not universal trait among those who are habitually bullied is that they don't fight back. Clearly I'm not talking in absolutes but merely "common" traits.

I also wrote, I believe there are those who come across as the weak ones of the herd. Bullies seek out those willing to accept the abuse. Do you deny that some people come across as weak? Do you think that bullies continue to abuse those who don't accept it? Because where I come from, we call that getting into fights. I also said, "Occasionally they make the wrong judgment, but usually they are right." Clearly I am not talking in absolutes.

On top of that, I never said that all of the weak ones in the herd get singled out and bullied. That's a logical fallacy on your part from my statement that bullies seek out the weak. The fact that some weak ones are not singled out is not evidence that bullies don't seek out the weak.

I also wrote, "I'm trying to understand why it seems to happen to some people on a regular basis while others almost never experience it." Clearly I didn't say that I knew exactly why each victim is chosen.

And I never said that all that somebody had to do was something I suggested, and everything would be peaches and cream. I did say, "Dealing with [bullies] is not something to be avoided. It's a skill that needs to be learned. I think that when avoidance becomes a preferred tactic instead of a last resort, you end up attracting more bullies."

All of the specific "suggestions" I made to Slingblade were in the form of questions, but you, she and others have chosen to believe that I was simply telling people that all they had to do was X. Sorry, but that's ********. I asked her in a specific scenario why she didn't take a few courses of action and why she choose the one she did. In response I had my motivations attacked.

I'm flabbergasted that my ideas are so resoundingly rejected. I'm close to done with arguing this point. Take it up with the scientists who are looking for patterns and finding many of the same things I see.

http://www.popcenter.org/problems/bullying/#endref52
Several researchers suggest, although there is not agreement, that some chronic victims are "irritating" or "provocative" because their coping strategies include aggressively reacting to the bullying.55 The majority of chronic victims, however, are extremely passive and do not defend themselves. Provocative victims may be particularly difficult to help because their behavior must change substantially to lessen their abuse.


Both provocative and passive chronic victims tend to be anxious and insecure, "which may signal to others that they are easy targets."56 They are also less able to control their emotions, and more socially withdrawn. Tragically, chronic victims may return to bullies to try to continue the perceived relationship, which may initiate a new cycle of victimization. Chronic victims often remain victims even after switching to new classes with new students, suggesting that, without other interventions, nothing will change.57 In describing chronic victims, Olweus states: "It does not require much imagination to understand what it is to go through the school years in a state of more or less permanent anxiety and insecurity, and with poor self-esteem. It is not surprising that the victims' devaluation of themselves sometimes becomes so overwhelming that they see suicide as the only possible solution."58,†

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16651310
Children with depressive symptoms had a significantly higher chance of being newly victimized, as did children with anxiety.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15530202
Escaped victims did not differ greatly from non-victims, but had some self-perception of continuing peer relationship difficulties. Continuing victims, irrespective of gender, liked other pupils and breaktime less (but did not dislike other aspects of school), had fewer friends in school (but not outside school), more often missed school (sometimes because of bullying), scored high on problem scales of the SDQ, and were more likely to be involved in bullying others as well as being bullied. New victims tended to resemble continuing victims. Continuing victims did not differ from escaped victims on type of bullying, but new and continuing victims less often reported talking to someone about a specific incident of bullying. Most victims gave mainly victim-related reasons for the bullying having taken place.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9788212
In the correlational analyses, both victimisation and social neglect are shown to be related to internalising coping, whereas bullying is associated with externalising coping and with a lack of problem-solving. Moreover, a positive relationship between victimisation and social support seeking was found.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308344
Bullies and their victims reported similar and greater emotional impairments and psychosomatic complaints, lack of self-confidence, and pessimism than students not involved in bullying. Both the bullied and bullies share relational, emotional, and self-conceptual problems, but they also differ in whether they succeed in social arenas and to what extent they are affected by different emotional and self-conceptual problems. They are, however, fellow sufferers in many aspects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20304490
Results revealed significant associations between peer victimization and subsequent changes in internalizing problems, as well as significant associations between internalizing problems and subsequent changes in peer victimization. Several moderator effects were observed. CONCLUSIONS: Internalizing problems function as both antecedents and consequences of peer victimization. These reciprocal influences suggest a vicious cycle that contributes to the high stability of peer victimization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17669221
Significant differences emerged between victims and non-victims on four out of five personality dimensions. Victims tended to be more neurotic and less agreeable, conscientious and extravert than non-victims. However, a cluster analysis revealed that the victim sample can be divided into two personality groups. One cluster, which comprised 64% of the victim sample, do not differ from non-victims as far as personality is concerned. Hence, the results indicate that there is no such thing as a general victim personality profile. However, a small cluster of victims tended to be less extrovert, less agreeable, less conscientious, and less open to experience but more emotional unstable than victims in the major cluster and the control group. Further, both clusters of victims scored higher than non-victims on emotional instability, indicating that personality should not be neglected as being a factor in understanding the bullying phenomenon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17565784
Those classed as bullies showed, in response to the scenario, higher scores than non-bullies on direct verbal and physical aggression, indirect aggression, verbal and physical displaced aggression, and revenge plans and fantasies; and lower values for fear/avoidance; they also showed higher impulsiveness and instrumental and expressive attributions. Those classed as victims showed higher scores than non-victims for fear/avoidance, displaced physical aggression and impulsiveness. These main effects of bullying or victimization, with no interactions, are discussed in relation to hypotheses based on a previous four-category classification of those involved in bullying. There were large sex differences in the male direction for direct physical aggression, and in the female direction for fear/avoidance. There were smaller differences in the male direction for revenge, indirect aggression and direct verbal aggression. These are discussed in relation to an evolutionary theory of sex differences in aggression.

http://jiv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/4/483
The hypothesis that there is a constellation of qualities that predisposes certain children to be chronically victimized is supported by three forms of evidence. First, children who are victims have qualities in common that differentiate them from other children. Some of these qualities exist before the child is victimized; others develop because of the victimization. Second, children who are victimized early in life remain victims for a long period of time, even though the bullies and situations may differ. Third, other children are able to identify potential victims with high reliability. To clarify why these victims are chronically harassed, this article examines qualities of victims, bullies, and the environment that support bully/victim problems.

 

[Senex]

Well, Lolly, why don't you show me where I said any of those things?

Here's one of the first things I wrote in this thread: One common but certainly not universal trait among those who are habitually bullied is that they don't fight back. Clearly I'm not talking in absolutes but merely "common" traits.

I also wrote, I believe there are those who come across as the weak ones of the herd. Bullies seek out those willing to accept the abuse. Do you deny that some people come across as weak? Do you think that bullies continue to abuse those who don't accept it? Because where I come from, we call that getting into fights. I also said, "Occasionally they make the wrong judgment, but usually they are right." Clearly I am not talking in absolutes.

On top of that, I never said that all of the weak ones in the herd get singled out and bullied. That's a logical fallacy on your part from my statement that bullies seek out the weak. The fact that some weak ones are not singled out is not evidence that bullies don't seek out the weak.

I also wrote, "I'm trying to understand why it seems to happen to some people on a regular basis while others almost never experience it." Clearly I didn't say that I knew exactly why each victim is chosen.

And I never said that all that somebody had to do was something I suggested, and everything would be peaches and cream. I did say, "Dealing with [bullies] is not something to be avoided. It's a skill that needs to be learned. I think that when avoidance becomes a preferred tactic instead of a last resort, you end up attracting more bullies."

All of the specific "suggestions" I made to Slingblade were in the form of questions, but you, she and others have chosen to believe that I was simply telling people that all they had to do was X. Sorry, but that's ********. I asked her in a specific scenario why she didn't take a few courses of action and why she choose the one she did. In response I had my motivations attacked.

I'm flabbergasted that my ideas are so resoundingly rejected. I'm close to done with arguing this point. Take it up with the scientists who are looking for patterns and finding many of the same things I see.

If someone says they were bullied they were bullied. You are out of line. You are a quack at the issue of bullying.

 

[LibraryLady]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17565784
Those classed as bullies showed, in response to the scenario, higher scores than non-bullies on direct verbal and physical aggression, indirect aggression, verbal and physical displaced aggression, and revenge plans and fantasies; and lower values for fear/avoidance; they also showed higher impulsiveness and instrumental and expressive attributions. Those classed as victims showed higher scores than non-victims for fear/avoidance, displaced physical aggression and impulsiveness. These main effects of bullying or victimization, with no interactions, are discussed in relation to hypotheses based on a previous four-category classification of those involved in bullying. There were large sex differences in the male direction for direct physical aggression, and in the female direction for fear/avoidance. There were smaller differences in the male direction for revenge, indirect aggression and direct verbal aggression. These are discussed in relation to an evolutionary theory of sex differences in aggression.

Hmmm. Yes, after I was bullied I was definitely more afraid and more avoiding of situations that might result in bullying. See the last lines of my OP. I think this would likely be true of most bullying victims. However, does this study speak to whether this was cause and effect. Were the victims like this before they were bullied?

 

[Senex]

Hmmm. Yes, after I was bullied I was definitely more afraid and more avoiding of situations that might result in bullying. See the last lines of my OP. I think this would likely be true of most bullying victims. However, does this study speak to whether this was cause and effect. Were the victims like this before they were bullied?

Who knows. You did hit a nerve.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Hmmm. Yes, after I was bullied I was definitely more afraid and more avoiding of situations that might result in bullying. See the last lines of my OP. I think this would likely be true of most bullying victims. However, does this study speak to whether this was cause and effect. Were the victims like this before they were bullied?

I don't think I can find it now, but I read that people who were bullied over a prolonged period of time developed a kind of "victim attitude" (for lack of a better word) that bullies recognized, which of course made them more likely to be bullied in the future. Makes sense to me.

 

[LibraryLady]

I think this is a case of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.