Merged Bees and Cellphones again

[LTC8K6]

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-mysterious-worldwide-bee-deaths-study-finds/

 

[theneedtoknow]

This is not cool. I have a bee colony that has formed outside my house under the eaves of the roof and I thought I could get rid of it using my cell phone. I've racked up $100s worth in overage bills and now I learn that it's not going to work? I think the newspapers should pay my phone bill.

Is it illegal to pay an underage bill?

 

[ibbicay]

Actual article citation:

Favre D. 2011. Mobile phone-induced honeybee worker piping. Apidologie (online first) DOI: 10.1007/s13592-011-0016-x

Freely available from SpringerLink

First paragraph of the Discussion:

"The results of the present pilot study clearly show that the presence of actively communicating mobile phone handsets in the close vicinity of honeybees had a dramatic effect, namely the induction of worker piping which was regularly observed about 25 to 40 min after the onset of the mobile phone communication. This observation means that: (1) honeybees are sensitive to pulsed electromagnetic fields generated by the mobile telephones and (2) under these circumstances, observable changes in the behavior of the bees are not artificial, but can be proven to occur reproducibly. Although mobile phones are not present in the close vicinity of honeybees in real life, this study provides elements for the establishment of further experiments involving such apparatus placed at increasing distances from the bees. Potential consequences of these observations are discussed below in more detail. "

 

[Nosi]

This is not cool. I have a bee colony that has formed outside my house under the eaves of the roof and I thought I could get rid of it using my cell phone. I've racked up $100s worth in overage bills and now I learn that it's not going to work? I think the newspapers should pay my phone bill.

What? Was that why I kept getting a buzzy tone when I tried to ring you?

 

[OldBloke]

The bees could have been reacting to sound, rather than any electromagnetic radiation / RF signal.

Apparently it only affected the bees when calls were actually happening, not just on standby.
"Within two minutes of the phone call ending, the worker bees calmed down."

So there must have been ring tones (which can be annoying to humans too). Also, was somebody actually talking over the phone during those "active" calls? Thus the sound of a voice coming out of the phone, which had been placed right under the hive could have upset the bees?

A good control would be to place a mobile phone 200 meters away, with a microphone near it and a wire going to a speaker which is the only apparatus right under the hive, and amplified the right amount so it makes an equal volume of noise as was coming from the phone in the original experiment, but no radio frequency signals.

Possibly bees have evolved to dislike bears growling near their hive - we all know bears like hunny [source: Winnie-the-Pooh]
Maybe bees start getting agitated, ready to swarm out and sting marauding critters, when they hear grunts, instead of waiting for actual physical damage to the hive before getting aggressive.

 

[Beerina]

Haven't had time to read it yet, but here's a link to the actual study, which probably doesn't reach the conclusions in the news reports.

http://www.kokopelli.asso.fr/documentation/favre.pdf

Cell Phones Caused Mysterious Worldwide Bee Deaths, Study Finds

It's in the title. Clearly it's well-determined.

 

[bigred]

First, pardon on the link. Here it is corrected (at least this one worked for me) along with a related CNN one (since many JREF people think Fox is evil )

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-mysterious-worldwide-bee-deaths-study-finds/

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-30/...ations-cell-phone-radiation-ofcom?_s=PM:WORLD

Second, thanks to those of you who are actually interested in discussing it vs the pseudo-intellectuals who automatically dismiss the possibilities without giving it any consideration. How scientific.

Bug girl at skepchick seems to have the analysis I was looking for.

Interesting, thx, although to be honest I have a hard time putting much stock behind someone who goes by "bug girl." Doesn't mean she doesn't make any valid points though.

What this seems to boil down to is cell phones do indeed "disturb bees," but how much and how much impact they may be having is as yet uncertain. Again, given the potential implications, even if it's not something nearly as dramatic as "This is what causes CCD!" - it's at the very least well worth further study. It may very well be a contributing factor.

 

[Nipsome]

bigred,

It is ironic you first off chastise people for being dismissive and unscientific, then turn around and dismiss someone else because of their blog persona, someone who is in fact a scientist, a bug scientist.

 

[bigred]

I can't imagine why...

First, I didn't see anything other than her claims about being a bug scientist, which are meaningless. Happy to concede I may have missed something though, as I didn't fine comb the site.

Second, being an expert doesn't make one correct.

Third and finally, if you re-read my post, you may note I said "Doesn't mean she doesn't make any valid points though."

 

[jayh]

First, pardon on the link. Here it is corrected (at least this one worked for me) along with a related CNN one (since many JREF people think Fox is evil )

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-mysterious-worldwide-bee-deaths-study-finds/

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-30/...ations-cell-phone-radiation-ofcom?_s=PM:WORLD

Second, thanks to those of you who are actually interested in discussing it vs the pseudo-intellectuals who automatically dismiss the possibilities without giving it any consideration. How scientific.

There is also the back of envelope calculation to see if you're even in the right ballpark. The India test placed cellphones IN THE HIVE, where they are not normally found and is in NO WAY TYPICAL of exposure patterns.

Cellphone radio emissions are no different from any other radio signal (and they are extremely weak at any distance from the phone, a noise level which is pretty much immersive in our environment. While cellphones are relatively recent, this continual background electromagnetic noise has been around for nearly a century. You would need a credible explanation why cellphone usage has changed the overall picture so drastically.

Of course the stronger signal very close to towers could have a local effect but this would hardly have an overall effect on bee activity (any manmade modification, building a strip mall for instance would have an effect the environment but there is no justification for the magical thinking that a bunch of towers is going to have an effect remotely equivalent to our general habitation patterns).

Correlation is not causation.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Cellphones do affect peoples' brains though.

Or at least, cellphone users do.

 

[Checkmite]

Haven't had time to read it yet, but here's a link to the actual study, which probably doesn't reach the conclusions in the news reports.

http://www.kokopelli.asso.fr/documentation/favre.pdf

Quoted, since some people managed to miss it (so it seems).

Read the actual study guys, it's not that long.

It says that during a 20-hour-long phone call, the bees started humming louder 40 minutes in, but did not do anything more than that for the remaining duration of the 20-hour call. Actual sound was used (audio from a radio station was being constantly transmitted through the phone to keep the call ongoing for 20 hours), but the study does not mention any accounting for the possibility of the bees being disturbed by the noise, or the heat a phone would give off after 20 hours of continuous operation. During the experiments, the bees never died, swarmed, absconded (gave up and left the hive) or became confused/disoriented or otherwise unable to return to the hive. After 20 straight hours of active phone operation.

ETA: Which suggests more the opposite of what the news reports are saying; that running cell phones might irk bees who have to listen to them but otherwise have no biological effect on them.

 

[bigred]

There is also the back of envelope calculation to see if you're even in the right ballpark. The India test placed cellphones IN THE HIVE, where they are not normally found and is in NO WAY TYPICAL of exposure patterns.

Of course not. It's rather like the giving rats umpteen times the normal amount of (whatever) which gave them cancer and then concluding that (whatever) causes cancer in people.

However....that doesn't mean that (whatever) is safe and it may very well cause cancer, and at the very least merits further investigation. That's all I'm saying here. Of course there aren't cell phones attached to bee hives in normal cirumstances. But as the cell phones did impact their behavior, and CCD is a very serious problem, it at least merits further investigation.

Cellphone radio emissions are no different from any other radio signal (and they are extremely weak at any distance from the phone,

...weak to US. And perhaps the insane explosion in their use combined is what might be screwing up the bees, at least to some extent. It's not like there's anywhere near enough info either way to say definitively.

And it's not simply about the hive. Last I checked most bees spent a hell of a lot of time outside the hive - where they often can't help but be exposed to the massive increase in radio emissions.

It may be all much ado about nothing, but IMO it's worth a look at least.

 

[Checkmite]

...weak to US. And perhaps the insane explosion in their use combined is what might be screwing up the bees, at least to some extent. It's not like there's anywhere near enough info either way to say definitively.

Yes there is. We can start with the fact that the insane explosion in cell phone use happened well before the fall of 2006, which is when the colony collapse epidemic began; that there were no special changes to the nation-wide cellular grid which were contemporary with the colony collapse epidemic, and the fact that there's not one iota of evidence to suggest that bees are susceptible to, affected by, or capable of detecting cell phone radiation, despite numerous studies, this last, wrongly-described study included.

And it's not simply about the hive. Last I checked most bees spent a hell of a lot of time outside the hive - where they often can't help but be exposed to the massive increase in radio emissions.

Strictly speaking, the bees would be exposed to the radio emissions just as strongly inside their hives as outside of them.

It may be all much ado about nothing, but IMO it's worth a look at least.

It's been looked at, repeatedly. More often even than other, more intuitive (and likely) causes such as actual pests and pesticides that we know for a fact are at least theoretically capable of affecting bees. This is because no matter how many times a study shows no apparent link, the lay public insists the matter "should be studied more".

 

[bigred]

Yes there is. We can start with the fact that the insane explosion in cell phone use happened well before the fall of 2006, which is when the colony collapse epidemic began;

Take your word for it, I'm too lazy to check that out. If so, good point.

the fact that there's not one iota of evidence to suggest that bees are susceptible to, affected by, or capable of detecting cell phone radiation,

? I didn't say anything about radiation but rather cell phones in general, whatever the cause.

Strictly speaking, the bees would be exposed to the radio emissions just as strongly inside their hives as outside of them.

Then why are people bringing up the "oh that only happened when they attached a phone to the bee hive, that's not realistic!" - ?

It's been looked at, repeatedly. More often even than other, more intuitive (and likely) causes such as actual pests and pesticides that we know for a fact are at least theoretically capable of affecting bees.

Having been looked at before and other possible causes for CCD do not themselves dictate dismissing this possible cause, esp when some studies have shown a link to disrupting bee behavior to one degree or other.

 

[Checkmite]

? I didn't say anything about radiation but rather cell phones in general, whatever the cause.

How else would cell phones that aren't near beehives have an effect on them? Presumably it's the signals they're transmitting.

Then why are people bringing up the "oh that only happened when they attached a phone to the bee hive, that's not realistic!" - ?

Because by locating a transmitter actually inside the beehive, the experiment exposes the bees to exponentially more concentrated RF emissions (inverse square law, etc) than they encounter normally in their hives or flying in the open. And it's worth noting that even under such conditions, it takes the bees nearly an hour to even begin to show agitation, and no lasting effects are observed.

Having been looked at before and other possible causes for CCD do not themselves dictate dismissing this possible cause, esp when some studies have shown a link to disrupting bee behavior to one degree or other.

And that is why lone scientists all over the world will continue to try to design and conduct experiments like these, and try their best to interpret the complete lack of data as showing a "possible link", which news outlets will continue to reinterpret as a definite link.

 

[bigred]

How else would cell phones that aren't near beehives have an effect on them? Presumably it's the signals they're transmitting.

Clarification: when you say "radiation" I presume you mean ionizing radiation.

Because by locating a transmitter actually inside the beehive, the experiment exposes the bees to exponentially more concentrated RF emissions (inverse square law, etc) than they encounter normally in their hives or flying in the open

? You just said "the bees would be exposed to the radio emissions just as strongly inside their hives as outside of them." Now they're "exponentially more concentrated?"

And it's worth noting that even under such conditions, it takes the bees nearly an hour to even begin to show agitation, and no lasting effects are observed.

...or perhaps we should say "have been proven (yet)."

Again, maybe there is no connection, I'm not insisting there is. I'm just saying (for a last time) that based on what I've seen, there may be and it's worth further investigation.

 

[Checkmite]

Clarification: when you say "radiation" I presume you mean ionizing radiation.

EM spectrum radiation produced by cell phones.

? You just said "the bees would be exposed to the radio emissions just as strongly inside their hives as outside of them." Now they're "exponentially more concentrated?"

Naturally, bees are exposed to as much RF emission inside a hive as outside, since the same radio waves that are everywhere outside will penetrate hives and be there, too.

When experiments place transmitting cell phones directly inside hives, a situation which is never encountered by the bees outside of the controlled setting of the experiment, the bees are exposed to exponentially more concentrated RF emissions than normal because they are adjacent to an active transmitter. And even under such extreme conditions, the bees suffer no health effects.

Also telling is the fact that wireless phone use and coverage have expanded since the CCD epidemic began, yet colonies are no longer being lost in such numbers despite no special treatments.

 

[Travis]

Didn't Mark Whalberg find out that this is just nature being incapable of being understood?