"Beat me to death"

Wolfman said:
I'm just wondering why it is that, every time I ask Oliver a question in these threads, he'll respond to everyone else, but ignore me? Again, just in case he somehow missed it, you can find my post here, Oliver.
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It's nothing personal. You made too much sense. Oliver usually avoids that....or changes the subject. Your plea for a response will be followed by a strawman, goalpost move, or abandonment of thread. Of course, there will be what I would like to call the "Palin response" (I will be the first to take credit for it) which is non-sensical gibberish followed by a smilie to make you feel like you should understand even though you're really just scratching your head and muttering "wth..huh"?
 
Cuddles said:
So you think that Germany is special and that nothing bad has ever happened anywhere else? This seems an appropriate place to copy a post I made just recently, that I know you've already seen:
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Then tell me, smart ass, which religious, cultural or ethnic group, other than the jews...

... has been the focus of demonization by a world religion for about 2,000 years, as well as the designated chew toy for many generations of pious bullies?
... has been stuck into ghettos, subjected to humiliating special laws, used as a scapegoat, and targetted by pogroms over and over again for all that time?
... has been extorted by the people whose theoretical duty it should have been to protect their lives in return for the promise to provide this protection, which of course was conveniently forgotten at any opportune moment?
... was the target one of the most thorough and intentional campaigns of genocide in history, and THE main victim of one of the vilest regimes in history?
... has then had insult added to injury by having the intellectual heirs of said regime (among others) turn around and claim victim status, stating that the abovementioned extinction event was a hoax perpetrated by the group in order to extort money and a country from the rest of the world?

No, really, tell me. I´m curious.
 
Chaos said:
Then tell me, smart ass, which religious, cultural or ethnic group, other than the jews...

... has been the focus of demonization by a world religion for about 2,000 years, as well as the designated chew toy for many generations of pious bullies?
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What world religion? If you are referring to Christianity, it took some centuries for it to grow into a regional religion, then an imperial religion, and then some more centuries for it to spread over the world, in which case it stuck, and didn't stick, unevenly.

Or do you refer to Islam?

Do you actually understand what you are asking?
... has been stuck into ghettos, subjected to humiliating special laws, used as a scapegoat, and targetted by pogroms over and over again for all that time?
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More overstatement "for all that time" which ignores the actual time line which is NOT your posited 2000 years. I give the Jews a lot of credit for surviving as a culture when their homeland was overrun by the Romans. They ate whatever crap they had to, with locals, and put up with second class citizen status as a survival skill. There are plenty of peoples who didn't, and either disappeared or were assimilated, over your same two thousand years.
... has been extorted by the people whose theoretical duty it should have been to protect their lives in return for the promise to provide this protection, which of course was conveniently forgotten at any opportune moment?
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What are you referring to, in detail?
... was the target one of the most thorough and intentional campaigns of genocide in history, and THE main victim of one of the vilest regimes in history?
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Do you refer to the Russian Kulaks here? ;) The Formosans? The non Han Chinese?
... has then had insult added to injury by having the intellectual heirs of said regime (among others) turn around and claim victim status, stating that the abovementioned extinction event was a hoax perpetrated by the group in order to extort money and a country from the rest of the world?
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That one I get.
No, really, tell me. I´m curious.
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I am wondering if using hyperbole to frame the question will get you the answer you desire. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I find the way you are trying to make it overly emotional, and in so being crafted less deserving of a serious response by the target of your disdain.
 
Tailgater said:
1. What does Guantanamo have to do with speech-limiting rights?
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Nothing. It's a prisoner of war facility at this time. The people being held there are not being held for anything that they've said; they are being held because they are enemy combatants who have been captured by us in the current war.
 
I remain unconvinced that a surplus of free speech was the root cause of the Third Reich's crimes.
 
It is my fault for starting this potential derailment.

Darth Rotor said:
So, let me see, when American sailors captured German U Boat crews in WW II, they had to serve a writ of habeus corpus?
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No. I don't see the situations as equivilent. I understand that certain situations may require the suspension of habeas courpus but in the interest of Justice and truth, it should be a last resort.

For what it is worth, the SCOTUS currently agrees with me. Course that could change any day now.

Edit: Not sure why I capitalized "Justice" above. Maybe I think I'm a superhero or something.
 
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KingMerv00 said:
It is my fault for starting this potential derailment.
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No probs Merv, I was in a playful mood.
I understand that certain situations may require the suspension of habeas courpus but in the interest of Justice and truth, it should be a last resort.
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There we go, decision by platitude: let's have more of that! :rolleyes:
For what it is worth, the SCOTUS currently agrees with me.
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About the platitudes, or what a hash Bush and Rummy made of the whole Gitmo dodge?
Edit: Not sure why I capitalized "Justice" above. Maybe I think I'm a superhero or something.
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For great justice? Maybe you are playing Zero Wing, on a nostalgia kick? :D

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
There we go, decision by platitude: let's have more of that! :rolleyes:
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Platitudes are easier to type than the full blown arguments they endorse.

*sigh* If you are going to drag me kicking and screaming into a REAL conversation, my argument goes something like this:

1) Detaining innocents is bad.
2) Habeas corpus is useful to avoid the detention of innocents.
3) If circumstances are such that HC is impractical, I would be OK with its temporary suspension.
4) I don't think the current circumstances make HC impractical.
5) WWII on the other hand....
 
Oliver said:
In light of the Should the UK extradite Holocaust denier? thread I will tell
you people a story my Grandma is telling me for years now:

My German ancestors lived in White Russia near Odessa during the Nazi-
Regime - and in 1941, the town was occupied by German forces.

My Grandma told me that she never feared anything during her childhood
until this happened:

Across the River they used to live, the occupying Nazi's burned Jews in
mass graves using caustic lime. One day, a neighbor of my Grandmothers
family came to their house and reported this:

"Last night I went outside after hearing some strange noises coming from
outside. I was shocked when I realized what was going on. A heavily
burned Jew was lying in front of me and he asked me to beat him to death
to stop the pain he was going through."

I don't know what happened to this jewish Man [I can only imagine], but
my Grandma told me that at this point, she knew what fear is about.

And I tell you this story because you should know that freedom of speech
is one thing, but preventing those things from happening again, is more
important than allowing the same kind of hate-speech that led to the
things that I just mentioned.
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I suspect the caustic lime was used to dispose of bodies killed in warfare in a sanity manner.
 
Oliver said:
So you're saying that my Grandma lied to make Jews look good? :(
Why should she do that?

Anti-Jewish opinions are part of "Freedom of expression". Denying
the Holocaust despite the overwhelming evidence is slander. So
what's the difference between the laws in your system in contrast
to the laws in the German system?
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How young was your Grandmother at the time and why didn’t the White Russians greet the Germans as liberators? The Ukrainians did.
 
Pardalis said:
Funny that you say that, considering you keep defending the Iranian government's clear anti-semitic rhetoric, especially here, and defended MaGZ' right to post hate propaganda here, here and here.

Kind of contradictory, isn't it?

You are completely oblivious that these are clearly hate-speech, these are equivalents of Holocaust denial, and yet you refuse one and accept the other.

Although Hitchens in Randfan's link does have a good point, that letting these crackpots speak can only further our resolve and deepen and strengthen our knowledge of the real history, but I don't agree as far as what these people say can also influence fools (useful idiots), and people without proper critical thinking skills, and this can lead to alot of harm, since alot of people can be swayed this way without realizing it, so I can't say I'm a 100% in favor of freedom of speech for these cases. I still think hate speech is nothing more than that, hate speech, it doesn't bring anything constructive to the table. Holocaust deniers I suspect don't really believe what they claim, they just want to incite fear and hatred towards the Jewish people, and that is not constructive, that is not debating, it's simply blind propaganda.

As I said in response to your post:

But I am also aware that we can't really do anything about it, that freedom of speech either is or isn't, either we have it or we don't, and this is where Hitchens hits the mark, ultimately we have to live with these people, and their hate, but we don't haev to like it, I certainly don't. Freedom of speech is a gift, and a curse.
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You are wrong about that. I am totally convinced the Holocaust is a monstrous lie after reading Butz’s book.
 
Chaos said:
Then tell me, smart ass, which religious, cultural or ethnic group, other than the jews...

... has been the focus of demonization by a world religion for about 2,000 years, as well as the designated chew toy for many generations of pious bullies?
... has been stuck into ghettos, subjected to humiliating special laws, used as a scapegoat, and targetted by pogroms over and over again for all that time?
... has been extorted by the people whose theoretical duty it should have been to protect their lives in return for the promise to provide this protection, which of course was conveniently forgotten at any opportune moment?
... was the target one of the most thorough and intentional campaigns of genocide in history, and THE main victim of one of the vilest regimes in history?
... has then had insult added to injury by having the intellectual heirs of said regime (among others) turn around and claim victim status, stating that the abovementioned extinction event was a hoax perpetrated by the group in order to extort money and a country from the rest of the world?

No, really, tell me. I´m curious.
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If some of these things happened why? What is it about Jews that makes them easy targets for abuse and destruction? Is it their looks, religion, attitude, smell?

What is you answer as to why Jews are persecuted?
 
MaGZ said:
I suspect the caustic lime was used to dispose of bodies killed in warfare in a sanity manner.
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Ehm, no. I was talking about Jews not being killed in warfare but
being killed right at the mass grave. Water and caustic lime was
used to make sure that the "solution" worked.

BTW: My Granny is 80 today/13 back then - and they had no
reason to see the German invasion as liberation since they had
a good life which basically turned over night when they had to
give away nearly all of their Food and Animals to support the
invading Troops. Plus they had to flee* when the German Army left:
[*That's how parts of my Family ended up in Canada and the US.]

Following the Siege of Odessa, and the Axis occupation, approximately 60,000 Odessans (mostly Jews) were either massacred or deported. Many parts of Odessa were damaged during its siege and recapture on 10 April 1944, when the city was finally liberated by the Red Army. It was one of the first four Soviet cities to be awarded the title of "Hero City" in 1945. Source
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