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Be Open Minded? Just Shut Up!

Starthinker said:
I always want to reply, "I am open minded. I've heard what you have to say, I've heard what others have to say and I have decided the evidence does not support your claims but supports the opposing position." but what comes out is usually something like "I think you're crazy."
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Perhaps we should forego language in favor of a cool mind-reading device. Our mouths tend to screw up the brilliance our brains formulate, don't they?
 
Phil , I have found that the only response that makes some headway goes something along these lines: “Ok… I believe that I am open minded to have reached this conclusion, what I don’t understand is, what makes you believe in the thing you do”.


IMO non sceptics don’t actually ever ask themselves, ‘why they believe’, I think there is an element of fear.
 
Huntsman said:
However, today most people have replaced "consider" with "accept". They believe open-minded means you should accept all viewpoints as equally valid. And, quite frankly, they aren't.
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You got a real good point there.

I think people too easyly tend to categorize the world in two segments, the right and the left. People from the left wing usually demonize the right so they will not «accept» anything that even remotely resembles the right. I, for one, don't think I'm from neither «camp». To me, it's perfectly sound to be against abortion AND against the death penalty. Some people like CT think it's hypocrecy. I just hate murder. I do not adhere to only one party. It's like politics, once you're in a party, nothing the other party say can be true or valid. You're stuck, you have to agree only with the ideas of your party. That's bull. You don't have to accept anything, I consider all possible options then I make up MY OWN MIND. I don't need a political party, a religion, or any group or association to tell me what to think.
 
Well, not all close minded people think they are open minded. In fact, some of the religious people in our state (South Carolina) must consider open-mindedness to be near sin. This little gem was on a church sign in Easley, South Carolina:

"Be careful when opening your mind your convictions don't fall out."

There are so many things wrong with that statement, I don't know where to begin. Didn't convictions used to be something that could withstand questioning and an open mind? I guess what the sign should have said was "do what the church tells you and don't ask any questions."
 
Political parties: Got that down pretty well. Had one member of my family gone from being a firm Republican to screaming for a decent third party, since she's appalled at the Republican party behavior and absurd religious pandering as of late.
 
pgwenthold said:
No, it's clear that they don't consider all opinions valid. For starters, your opinion that their opinion is idiotic is not acceptable.

It's one of my things to look for in internet discussion. Some topic comes up, someone presents their loopy, unsupported position. Others come in with a pile of evidence that rips the loopy position to threads. The one with the loopy position proclaims that they are being treated unfairly, and that they are entitled to state their position. "This IS a discussion board, isn't it?"

Of course, the implication here is that they are allowed to post THEIR opinion, but others are not allowed to post a contrary opinion.

"I'm entitled to my opinion and you can't criticize it" is the last defense of a person who has no basis for it.

It's about as interesting as discussing a favorite color. Which isn't really a discussion, but just a list of statements.

"I like red."
"Oh really? I like green."
"Mauve fan, here."
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Well, I wasn't clear, but that's kinda my point,. They seem to think (In my experience) that you shouldn't criticize anyone's beliefs. Then, of course, they criticize you for your "close-mindedness" because you dared to point out the flaws in their reasoning or their lack of knowledge, instead of giving them a warm and fuzzy.

Those who tend to stick to their own personal idea and criticize all others rabidly (such as our current crop of CTers) don't seem as apt to use the 'open-minded' ploy, usually playing the 'brainwashed' card instead.
 
Much the same way the phrase "think about it" when used by CTers really means, "don't think about it too much."
 
Being open minded to me is considering all possibilities and then coming to a conclusion based on fact. I've known a few people to just dismiss JE as a cold reader, and that very well may be true but some haven't even seen JE do any readings and are just parroting what some other skeptic said.
 
Some great posts.Having spent many attempts(being banned after each one)to discuss with beleevers on Supernaturalworld forum,all I get is "Your attitude is bad" "you are rude" etc.Roughly translated as "La la la Im not listening" ;)
 
I have been treated like the plague in audiophile forums. Those people are a case. They DONT want you to teach them to doubt, they DO NOT want to learn critical thinking! They are perfectly happy being raped by cable sellers.

I cant possible understand those kind of people. They will not see the evidence, or they will shout that the evidence is "flawed" even without trying for themselfs!

Whats worst, they ask you to be "open minded"! they like to cry about "science is wrong anyway"! and that "we will never know"! (so, its better to buy expensive cable because.. who knows).

What a bunch of crap!

Sorry for the rant.
 
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded".
 
Open minded seems to mean that you can believe what you want but you cant tell anybody else they are wrong. I may not believe in faith healing but to knock it in the company of a believer is somehow bad. Its seen as raining on their parade instead of educating them.

Most people dont see belief in woo as harmfull. If it makes them feel better to believe it then you shouldnt try to harm them with the truth. I speculate this is rooted in the fact that people tend to make themselves believe a religion because they want to despite the facts.

Add to this the fact that people see blind faith as a admirable trait and those without it as somehow defficient.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
I have been treated like the plague in audiophile forums. Those people are a case. They DONT want you to teach them to doubt, they DO NOT want to learn critical thinking! They are perfectly happy being raped by cable sellers.

I cant possible understand those kind of people. They will not see the evidence, or they will shout that the evidence is "flawed" even without trying for themselfs!

Whats worst, they ask you to be "open minded"! they like to cry about "science is wrong anyway"! and that "we will never know"! (so, its better to buy expensive cable because.. who knows).

What a bunch of crap!

Sorry for the rant.
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As an active audiophile, I can sympathize with this.

There are many places that money can be spent that make a tremendous impact on sound quality and there are many places that one can throw a ton a money that gives little to nothing in return. The ads for each type of product read pretty much the same. Most audiophiles can't tell the difference. They don't do ABx comparisons. If you can't tell products apart while blinded, they aren't beneficial. This goes right past them.

I have some cables that are more expensive than they need to be strictly for audio reproduction. But I like them for their appearence and I love how secure the connectors function. But I can't hear the difference between them and my less expensive cables.
 
Phil said:
I tell people all the time that a good skeptic is the most open minded person they will ever encounter. A good skeptic is willing to be shown that any belief system, should they have them, is incorrect. A good skeptic is open to any new information and will re-assess his or her entire worldview based on that, if the situation so dictates. There is no way to be more open minded than that.
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Bingo!! Similar to what Alan Cromer penned in Uncommon Sense: The Heretical Nature of Science (pg. 157-157):

"The burden of proof must be on the believer. If the evidence is convincing enough, the skeptics will in time accept almost anything, even that the continents are drifting about the face of the earth. But until the evidence is there, the only sane course is to reject all claims that are unverified and inconsistent with current knowledge."
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RayG
 
Beelzebubba said:
Well, not all close minded people think they are open minded. In fact, some of the religious people in our state (South Carolina) must consider open-mindedness to be near sin. This little gem was on a church sign in Easley, South Carolina:

"Be careful when opening your mind your convictions don't fall out."

There are so many things wrong with that statement, I don't know where to begin. Didn't convictions used to be something that could withstand questioning and an open mind? I guess what the sign should have said was "do what the church tells you and don't ask any questions."
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I'm in SC as well, and I really have to fight the urge to pull all of the letters off some of the church signs I see whilst driving.
 
atari24 said:
I'm in SC as well, and I really have to fight the urge to pull all of the letters off some of the church signs I see whilst driving.
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I once saw a sign over here in Texas I would have given a nudge if it were at ground level: "Obedience is faith in action." -> "Obedience is faith inaction." Not all that profound, but I think it's subtily true and funny.
 
Since we are adding quotes, let me pass on a couple

"I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but not hang it by the neck until dead"
--Anon

"The marketplace of Ideas ensures that each items is put on display, but does not compel its purchase"
--JayUtah of the Bad Astronomy Bulletin Board
 
Phil said:
I've grown weary of being asked by true believers to remain open minded.

I don't mind so much if I have indeed slipped away from my normal open minded self, and it is a legitimate request. But often the person making the request doesn't really want me to remain open minded.

When some people make that request, they don't want me to be open minded. What they actually want is for me to share their opinion.

And I suppose that's understandable. After all, it's comforting when a lot of people think like we do.

But if I were to be open minded the way they want me to be open minded, I would have to stop considering all aspects of any issue. I would have to stop examining all possible explanations for any phenomenon. I would have to disregard evidence that is contrary to my pet conclusion. I would in fact have to behave in a more closed minded fashion.

How the hell did the meaning of the phrase "open minded" become distorted to actually mean "close minded"?

I tell people all the time that a good skeptic is the most open minded person they will ever encounter. A good skeptic is willing to be shown that any belief system, should they have them, is incorrect. A good skeptic is open to any new information and will re-assess his or her entire worldview based on that, if the situation so dictates. There is no way to be more open minded than that.

The true believers, however, the ones always requesting that I remain open minded, are way less willing to do anything of the sort. In my experience, they are decidedly close minded. Yet they are the ones constantly asking me to remain open minded.

I am so effing weary of that request.
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You hit the nail on the head. Open minded true believers are often those who will accept no other explanation or alternative. But they are open to all kinds of freaky, unbelievable, impossible alternate realities. Go figure.
 
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