BBC website pushing sCAM (why am I not surprised?)

I think that webpage would benefit greatly from some new links pointing to some skeptical sites, not just to the cam promoters. Not a contrary site to be found.

Perhaps Edzard Ernst would like to medically review these pages. Or Dr. Ben Goldacre. I wonder how they picked their medical reviewer?
 
I checked the link and they have changed it a little bit. At least they modified the sub-title Yahzi complained about.
Woot!

Victory!

But I bet they never apologize to me for having asserted I can't read English.

Anyway, the point is... we can make a difference. WE SHALL OVERCOME!

:)


Edit: Hang on...
This article was last medically reviewed by Dr Rob Hicks in September 2005.

So their text has not been medically reviewed?

So much for the value of medical review... :D :D :D
 
Last edited:
I think that webpage would benefit greatly from some new links pointing to some skeptical sites, not just to the cam promoters. Not a contrary site to be found.
I have suggested that, but no reply yet.
 
Woot!

Victory!

But I bet they never apologize to me for having asserted I can't read English.

Anyway, the point is... we can make a difference. WE SHALL OVERCOME!

:)


Edit: Hang on...


So their text has not been medically reviewed?

So much for the value of medical review... :D :D :D

Yes, it's good to see they are listening - even if they say they are not.

BTW has anyone looked at NHS Direct lately? There is only one link under Comp Med now, to acupuncture, although some of the other pages are still there if you search for them. The homeopathy page is far more balanced now. No doubt about it, the NHS is listening as well. Indeed, I heard last week that the NHS is scaling down spending on CAM, and "isn't this a bad thing because we haven't yet proved that it doesn't work?" (anonymous homeopath). No, I don't understand the logic either.

Meanwhile the NHS Directory gets worse. It has nothing to do with the NHS despite its plagiarism of the name, which is bad enough, but it's now closely allied with a blatantly woo site.
 
Indeed, I heard last week that the NHS is scaling down spending on CAM, and "isn't this a bad thing because we haven't yet proved that it doesn't work?" (anonymous homeopath). No, I don't understand the logic either.
We're currently having that argument with Rodney (a real champion as far as reversing the burden of proof is concerned) over in General Skepticism.
 
I haven't hit the BBC with my promised hatchet job on the site, because they keep changing it. Here's their latest reply:
Thank you for your further e-mail about the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/healthy_living/complementary_medicine/therapies_
homeopathy.shtml

I have drawn your further comments to the attention of the site's Editor, but I am afraid she doesn't feel she can add to her previous response.

If you wish to pursue your complaint, however, you can at this stage contact the BBC's Editorial Complaints Unit, who will independently investigate the matter. You can write to them at the following address:

Editorial Complaints Unit
BBC
Media Centre
MC4C6 Media Village
201 Wood Lane
London W12 7TQ

Alternatively you can email the Unit at: ecu@bbc.co.uk. Please note that any complaints submitted via email must include your postal address as all responses will continue to be issued via letter.

Whether or not you choose to pursue your complaint with the ECU please be assured your further concerns have been registered, and please accept our further apologies for the lengthy delay in replying to you initially.

Yours sincerely


Alison Wilson
Divisional Adviser
Factual Programmes
They have mostly responded by denying all our claims, but at the same time removing various contentious sections. But the site seems to retain a core of unbalanced items. In particular, there is still nothing about real evidence, or any links to sites containing evidence, to any sceptical sites. I think these points form the basis for a further missive to the editorial complaints unit, and I'm working on that now.
 
Why don't they include how homeopathy supposedly works by just being water? Then try to get them to justify how water supposedly has memory, even though nobody has EVER been able to tell the difference between "homeopathic" remedy and something that hasn't just been shaken about?

I'd like to see them appear as anything but gullible in trying to explain all that.

Also, tell folks that the only "positive" studies on just plain water (homeopathy) come from the makers of just plain water as "medicine". Anybody in the world, for the most part, understands that kind of bias.

If not, then I have some majic lollipops to sell them. You see, their magic, cuz I said so. I don't even have to shake them, or start with something to dilute out completely.
 
They have mostly responded by denying all our claims, but at the same time removing various contentious sections.
Indeed. Here's my latest reply:

BBC said:
Thank you for your further e-mails regarding the Health website. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying.

I am sorry if I have offended you. That was not my intention. I have forwarded your concerns to editors for their attention. However, I can only reiterate that doctors update the website regularly. And more importantly the site editors are not inferring that conventional doctors are uncaring, the BBC's own medical team are involved in the Health website.

Please be assured your further comments have been registered.

Best regards,

Vis Karunaratne
Divisional Advisor (New Media complaints)
BBC Information
This in response to my complaint about what the word "difference" means. No acknowledgement of that issue; and no mention that they've since changed the website!

I'm going to write Vis another letter pointing this out.

BTW, did anybody notice the disclaimer at the end?

BBC said:
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this.
What's the point of a reply that you cannot use, disclose, or act on?

It's like a homeopathic reply... it contains no actual substance! :D
 
My latest salvo:
Yahzi said:
My complaint is Vis Karunaratne.

I have used this website to complain about a particular web page that was wildly inaccurate and deeply insulting to the entire medical profession. Throughout this process Vis and Anne Lavan have repeatedly failed to actually address the content of my complaints - namely, what the word "different" means.

In what can only be admission of the truth of my argument, the website has changed. It used to say, "How is it different?" Now it says, "How does it complement?" (MInd you, the text underneath has barely changed - the same essential paragraph remains, with only a 180 degree reversal of the original headline.)

Yet Vis's latest letter to me makes no mention whatsoever of the BBC's sudden understanding of what the word "different" means. Instead, it shrugs my concerns off with meaningless corporate drivel.

I'm not expecting the BBC to agree with me on CAM. I am expecting them to agree with me on what the word "different" makes. They have already done so, by correcting the website; but the context of Vis's message to me makes it clear that he/she still does not understand that the original text was misleading.

Why can't the Information office admit when they were wrong? Why doesn't Vis understand that putting "care about patient's health" under a bold headline like "How is it different" necessarily implies that conventional doctors don't care? How can you trust this person to understand medicine when they don't understand English?

More to the point, how can you trust them to get the facts about medicine straight, when they don't care about the facts of what words mean?

Vis, write back to me and either a) explain why listing a series of attributes under a heading "How is it different" does not imply that the other subject lacks those qualities, or b) admit you were wrong, you didn't bother to read or understand my complaint, and now that someone in editing has, you see the need for the correction.
 
I have now been through the whole site and sent a detailed critique to the Editorial Complaints Unit. As ever no reply so far.
 
And more importantly the site editors are not inferring that conventional doctors are uncaring, the BBC's own medical team are involved in the Health website.
When he's worked out what 'difference' means you might like to educate him on what 'infer' means. So much for the BBC as the bastion of good usage.
 
When he's worked out what 'difference' means you might like to educate him on what 'infer' means. So much for the BBC as the bastion of good usage.
I missed that - again!

This is the second time they have misused "infer."

Good grief.
 
I'm saddened that while mentioning most other forms of CAM, including foreign ones, a British website completely ignores Hairdressing.

Hairdressing has all the quality of life benefits of Aromatherapy and the results in terms of personal perception of wellbeing are far more reliably proven.

I feel it's high time the efforts of British Hairdressers were acknowledged by the CAM community and hairdressers, who actually do have government recognised training courses and qualifications were awarded doctorates and similar degrees comparable to those of other CAM professionals.

It's a burning shame our Sharon's not an MB Ch.B. She's a dab hand at razor cuts.
 
Here is the BBC's latest response:

BBC said:
Dear Yahzi

Thank you for your email regarding the Health website. I understand that you feel the previous responses from my colleagues in BBC Information, Vis Karunaratne and Anne Lavan, failed to address your complaint, namely what the word 'different' means and why it has been changed on the site.

I can only apologise how you felt about Vis and Anne's responses. I have now reviewed all the correspondence on this matter and contacted the site editors. I think it's important to emphasise from the outset that neither Vis nor Anne were informed that the site and the wording had been changed.

Although I concede that "different" can be understood in the sense that you ascribe to it I do feel that it wasn't intended in that sense and the doctors who periodically review the site don't seem to have understood it in that sense either. Nevertheless the site editors now acknowledge that changes to the site were made and I understand from your email that you are now happy with this.

Please be assured all your concerns on this matter were added to a daily log which is made available to senior editorial staff and channel controllers. I will also discuss your comments and this reply with Vis and Anne.

Thank you, once again, for contacting the BBC.

Yours sincerely


Ethan Kennedy
BBC Information Complaints Coordinator
What planet are these people from?


Here's my response:
Yahzi said:
My complaint is over the treatment I have recieved for pointing out that the word "different" means "not the same." Every person who has contacted me from the BBC has been unbelievably patronizing. This wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so demonstrably, unequivocably, wrong.

The original website contained a description of complementary medicine. Under a bold-faced heading, "How is it different?," it proceeded to describe a number of features that it _shares_ with scientific medicine. Indeed, in three paragraphs of text, the only difference was one word - spirituality. The other differences listed were things like, "cares about a patient's whole well-being" and "aims to prevent disease."

Any competent reader of English understands that when you provide a title, "How is it different," then the following paragraph explains differences. And if CAM is different because it cares about whole well-being and aims to prevent disease, then, by logical necessity, standard medicine must not care about these goals. That is what different means: not the same.

When I pointed out that was insulting to the entire medical field, and wrong to boot, I was told that I don't understand what the word different means.

Now the website has been changed. And yet, the BBC continues to assert that the only problem with the original text was my inability to read English.

For example, Ethan Kennedy writes:

"Although I concede that "different" can be understood in the sense that you ascribe to it I do feel that it wasn't intended in that sense and the doctors who periodically review the site don't seem to have understood it in that sense either."

This is ludicrous. So much so that it is insulting. Please explain to me how it is possible to describe a list of features as "differences" when you meant "similarities." Please explain why the BBC cannot simply admit it made a mistake in the common, ordinary usuage of a common, ordinary word.

Please ask Mr. Kennedy to explain what sense of the word different means "the same."

We're not arguing over the realities of CAM here; we are arguing over the definition of an ordinary word. And incidentally, over the integrity of a institution that cannot admit even the slightest editorial mistake.

You insulted doctors. You changed it, after I complained many times. Now I would like you to admit that I was correct about the meaning of the word different, and that you were wrong. Then, perhaps, you can meditate on the mind-set that required your institution to be so insultinginly patronizing to someone who pointed out a simple error on your behalf.
 
Last edited:
Yahzi, you are like a terrier with its teeth in a juicy backside.
 
ETA (too late to ad on my last post):
In fact if you wish to alert the BBC on how complementary and alternative medicine DIFFERS from conventional medicine, why do you not give them a few pointers, eg:

CAM therapies usually have no scientifically-accepted biological basis for action.

CAM therapies lack any demonstrable efficacy when objectively assessed in properly conducted clinical trial settings.

Apparent effects from CAM therapies have been shown to be expicable through the placebo effect.

CAM therapies are often advocated in place of medically-proven conventional therapies rather than being used to complement them.

CAM therapies are often advocated and administered by practitioners who have no medical training or background, and whose "qualifications" and training in the field of CAM can be obtained through brief unaccredited courses run by unqualified personnel or over the internet.


I am sure there are others....
Maybe you can include some of these in your next response to the BBC?
 
Regarding the doctor who reviews their info - I am reminded of the SF author John Brunner (IIRC) writing about being asked to be an advisor for the TV show Space 1999. He thought it was a kids show and wrote back about their writer being too lazy to look up the symptoms of radiation sickness and that shows for kids must be more factually accurate than shows for adults. He got a reply expressing their regret that he didn't wish to be an advisor. It seemed they preferred a more compliant advisor. One wonders if a similar mechanism is at play here.
 
Chances are the "doctors" who advise the BBC on this website are "doctors" of CAM themselves. That is, the insane are running the asylum.
 
Complaining to the BBC is a new [weirdly cathartic] hobby of mine. I regularly complain about all manner of things - and I think it's getting to the stage where I am wondering if I've turned into Mary Whitehouse.

In any case I am currently pursuing a line of complaint about the last series of Horizon. In particular Human 2.0 and their coverage of the [fashionable doom of us all] Flu Pandemic. I am unsure whether anyone has mentioned Sense About Science? I find it's quite good to point to the links on these pages.

In any case I am currently corresponding with the BBC on this and some other topics. I already complained about the CAM coverage on the site last year and met with similar stone-walling - much as I am at present.

I am infuriated with the BBC. I like the BBC and that is the root of my bugbear. They seem to be attempting to compete with the likes of ITV; they seem to be dumbing down, they seem to be trying to do populist TV when, as they are paid by taxes, I would prefer to see them doing what they do best - providing quality programming. I've noticed a real degredation in the quality of their coverage recently - including the news... I could do on but suspect I've been dreary enough as it is.

EDIT: I think there is a little need to be careful not to go off your heads too much. There's a real effort in certain sectors of the media to scrap the Beeb - and then I would really worry about the state of the Media industry in the UK.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom