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BBC Programme to show acupuncture deactivates brain

To get back to the feasibility of open heart surgery without ventilating the patient and having them breathing spontaneously- yes it can be done and is done quite often.... Here are references/commentary on coronary bypass surgery.

http://www.ctsnet.org/doc/9582 (this has links to several other references, one of the more interesting of which is this one)
http://indianheartjournal.com/JanFeb2005/Conscious%20Of/conscious_off.htm
http://www.cja-jca.org/cgi/content/full/52/10/1088

It is also used for heart surgery requiring cardiopulmonary bypass. One of the anaesthetic junior trainees in my hospital has worked in Bangalore (2nd ref) and confirms the procedure was used for valve surgery.

No acupuncture required, just sedation and "numbing of the chest".

The article I mention doesn't really support the overall procedure, though, thinking that risks might outweigh the benefits, and concludes.....
as noted by the comedian Chris Rock, "Because you can steer a car with your feet, it doesn't make it a good idea."
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Well, colour me hornswoggled.

Do you know why that might be the procedure of choice? Is there some relevance to the references coming from places like Turkey and India? What are the contraindications to a G/A and in what way does this procedure address these issues? If you can find out, that is!

Rolfe.
 
I imagine there will be some patients for whom GA/intubation/ventilation may pose too great a risk. Post op recovery should be quicker in theory and fewer problems with post-op chest infections etc. with regional analgesia.
Also as regards India/Turkey and so on, I don't really know. Perhaps the facilities for cardiac ICU/so on may be somewhat different, and maybe they need quicker turn around of patients. Maybe its an East/West thing: in the West the medico-legal ramifications of something going wrong using this technique are so great that it is seldom attempted.
 
Could someone explain this to the layman ...

Can you breathe normally after the sternum is cut until the bypass machine is put in place? What is the basic sequence of events that happens?
 
I think I've got it figured, that because of the very robust human mediastinum, the procedure can be accomplished without entering either pleural space. Thus the chest wall and diaphragm movements can still inflate the lungs.

But I Am Not A Doctor, so better wait for someone who is to confirm that. I just wish dear Kathy had thought to explain that in the programme. Would have taken about 15 seconds. Anyone who didn't understand, wouldn't need to understand, but it would have cleared things up for those of us with some physiological knowledge who nevertheless lacked indepth acquaintance with some very specialist surgical techniques.

Except I suspect that Kathy, rather than seeing all and understanding all, actually didn't know enough to realise there was a question that needed answering.

Rolfe.
 
Yes Rolfe, you can open the pericardial space without going into the pleural spaces, according to my surgeon colleague. That's the key to it. The problem with science is, you have to know what questions to ask;)
 
Rolfe said:
But I Am Not A Doctor, so better wait for someone who is to confirm that. I just wish dear Kathy had thought to explain that in the programme. Would have taken about 15 seconds.
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But the explanation would have negated the purpose of that part of her itinerary
 
So, do you think she herself knew exactly how it was done, and didn't want to tell us, or do you think she simply didn't understand enough to realise that "how is that woman actually breathing?" was a reasonable question from those of us not well-versed in the most recent advances in thoracic surgery?

Rolfe.
 
I am thinking of writing this good lady a letter pointing out all the errors of her ways.
 
Rolfe said:
Share!

Rolfe.
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Make sure you point out the placebo effect and it's relationship with acupunture that she "discovered" in her 2nd programme too.

Oh, Rolfe, you should offer to share your PowerPoint presentation with her too.
 
Rolfe said:
OK, is this the thread we're commenting on?


It was clear from the video that the chest was actually open. I wish I'd videoed it now, because it must have been some sort of illusion or trick. The patient was very woozy and drugged up, but she was not unconscious, and she was not intubated. And yet nobody even mentioned how she was managing to breathe. As seen, that was as impossible as sawing the lady in half. The obvious fakery invalidated the rest of the programme for me, and in any event I didn't get the impression that it revealed anything terribly interesting, except that there had been one study which, as published, did impress Edzard Ernst. Er, has it been independently replicated?


Rolfe.
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I find it odd that they did not film the crew near the opreating table, in the next room or something like that. Did the film crew actually witness the operation? If not, then...

mattias
 
Interesting Ian said:
What do you mean "impossible" :eek: What sort of impossible are we talking about here??



Scientists can no longer be authorities in all aspects of science. She's probably a physicist or something, in which case if it is indeed impossible then she might not know it. I certainly did not know it is impossible. I would like you to substantiate this assertion though. If it is so obviously impossible this begs the question of why the BBC should show it at peak viewing times on one of their mainstream channels! Obviously they don't know it's absolutely impossible either :rolleyes:



Infinitely better than that complete idiot called Dawkins. Her questioning and scepticism were impeccable.
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That last sentence is surely a joke. Please tell me it is.
 
Interesting Ian said:
I disagree entirely. I would also have disagreed entirely if they had concluded that it was entirely due to the placebo effect. The presenter was really intelligent and excellent. Superb viewing! Wish they had some more high quality programmes on like that.



You mean you cannot be conscious while it's happening? But why??
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That was explained at least two times in the thread above the point were you wrote this.

mattias
 
mattias73 said:
I find it odd that they did not film the crew near the opreating table, in the next room or something like that. Did the film crew actually witness the operation? If not, then...

mattias
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The alternative options to a conspiracy theory would be that..... they only had one camera crew allowed in the theatre?

Not seeing a camera crew in a documentary does not invalidate the recording. I have no reason to not believe that orca beach themselves deliverately to take seals, merely because there was no shot of the camera crew on the beach as well.

Oh, can I ask why you're dredging up a year old thread, especially as you are asking questions of a poster who has since been banned (Ian) and cannot reply to you?
 
EHocking said:
Oh, can I ask why you're dredging up a year old thread, especially as you are asking questions of a poster who has since been banned (Ian) and cannot reply to you?
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I'm guessing, by the post count, that it's someone who did exactly what I did when I joined the forum. That is, read through lots of different threads, finally registered to post in one that interested me and didn't realise that the further back you go, the older the threads are :D

So welcome to the forums Mattias73. Unfortunately, you won't get many responses from the posters you replied to, as II is banned and Rolfe no longer posts here. I'm sure there'll be something else for you to get your teeth in soon enough though.
 
Mashuna said:
I'm guessing, by the post count, that it's someone who did exactly what I did when I joined the forum. That is, read through lots of different threads, finally registered to post in one that interested me and didn't realise that the further back you go, the older the threads are :D
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Ah, true, true. I made the same mistake when I first posted. Started a thread on a subject already discussed...
So welcome to the forums Mattias73. Unfortunately, you won't get many responses from the posters you replied to, as II is banned and Rolfe no longer posts here. I'm sure there'll be something else for you to get your teeth in soon enough though.
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Seconded - welcome Mattias. It's a shame that Rolfe doesn't post any more, she was a valuable contributor to the forum. Same can't be said of "interesting" Ian IMHO.:p
 
Aw, I thought for a second that Rolfe had returned. Then I saw the year. :(

Athon
 
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