BBC Programme to show acupuncture deactivates brain
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Rolfe
Adult human female
OK, is this the thread we're commenting on?
If "professor" Kathy Sykes went to the theatre and saw Mr. Magico in his scarlet-lined cape saw a lady in half, would she assume a lady had really been sawn in half? What on earth is that grinning chattering airhead a professor of, for crying out loud?
It was clear from the video that the chest was actually open. I wish I'd videoed it now, because it must have been some sort of illusion or trick. The patient was very woozy and drugged up, but she was not unconscious, and she was not intubated. And yet nobody even mentioned how she was managing to breathe. As seen, that was as impossible as sawing the lady in half. The obvious fakery invalidated the rest of the programme for me, and in any event I didn't get the impression that it revealed anything terribly interesting, except that there had been one study which, as published, did impress Edzard Ernst. Er, has it been independently replicated?
The only possibility was that there could have been some sort of endotracheal tube going into that girl's trachea within the thorax. I did see some sort of tubing that might have been involved, but I saw nothing like a cuffed tube, and no ventilation apparatus. And the huge great elephant in the room (the breathing) wasn't even mentioned.
I'd like to hear what others with some degree of surgical knowledge think of this, but basically, gimme a break! Even my mother, no scientific training, gave up in disgust and went to bed, saying she'd expected a balanced assessment, not some breathless wee girl enthusing about apparently not very much.
Rolfe.
If "professor" Kathy Sykes went to the theatre and saw Mr. Magico in his scarlet-lined cape saw a lady in half, would she assume a lady had really been sawn in half? What on earth is that grinning chattering airhead a professor of, for crying out loud?
It was clear from the video that the chest was actually open. I wish I'd videoed it now, because it must have been some sort of illusion or trick. The patient was very woozy and drugged up, but she was not unconscious, and she was not intubated. And yet nobody even mentioned how she was managing to breathe. As seen, that was as impossible as sawing the lady in half. The obvious fakery invalidated the rest of the programme for me, and in any event I didn't get the impression that it revealed anything terribly interesting, except that there had been one study which, as published, did impress Edzard Ernst. Er, has it been independently replicated?
The only possibility was that there could have been some sort of endotracheal tube going into that girl's trachea within the thorax. I did see some sort of tubing that might have been involved, but I saw nothing like a cuffed tube, and no ventilation apparatus. And the huge great elephant in the room (the breathing) wasn't even mentioned.
I'd like to hear what others with some degree of surgical knowledge think of this, but basically, gimme a break! Even my mother, no scientific training, gave up in disgust and went to bed, saying she'd expected a balanced assessment, not some breathless wee girl enthusing about apparently not very much.
Rolfe.
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Public understanding of science.
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Personally I was spellbound. To think that sticking needles in people has an effect on the part of the brain that's concerned with pain. You could have knocked me down with a feather.
I did like the sign on the door of the MRI room: 'Insideyourheadoscope'.
I did like the sign on the door of the MRI room: 'Insideyourheadoscope'.
dogbite666
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I agree the girl wasn't having open heart surgery, only in the last shot did we see an open part of a torso, we sure don't know if the was a chest let alone the girls chest.
The study showed that some pain can be reduced by accupuncture, however I wasnt to convinced of the pacebo. The brain scan at the end of the show proved that when a needle is inserted into the human hand different parts of the brain are activiated / deactiviated depending upon how far the needle is inserted.
Would randi give up his million dollars if I could prove that sticking a needle into the body does stem pain above placebo? By sticking a needle into the body I don't mean accupuncture, in which needle are inserted into specific parts of the body.
John.
The study showed that some pain can be reduced by accupuncture, however I wasnt to convinced of the pacebo. The brain scan at the end of the show proved that when a needle is inserted into the human hand different parts of the brain are activiated / deactiviated depending upon how far the needle is inserted.
Would randi give up his million dollars if I could prove that sticking a needle into the body does stem pain above placebo? By sticking a needle into the body I don't mean accupuncture, in which needle are inserted into specific parts of the body.
John.
Asolepius
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No, apparently it's `Engagement of the Public with Science'. It seems they have to engage without necessarily understanding.
Rolfe, that patient was obviously on bypass, presumably heart-lung bypass so the blood would have been aerated. Right? But how did they suppress the breathing reflex in a conscious patient? She was obviously not paralysed. There was a nasal tube of some sort, which might just have been big enough for ventilation, but as you say how was it cuffed (it would have to be). Is there an anaesthetist in the house?
Rolfe
Adult human female
Pretty please, can we pick a thread and stick with it? (I just linked the other thread, in the General Scepticism forum, to here, so maybe this one is better.)
I could think of theoretical ways one might do it, and I'm not an anaesthetist, but two questions kept coming up. How. and Why.
The irony is that the biggest puzzle of the lot wasn't anything to do with acupuncture, but what the hell was going on on that open-heart op. I can quite imagine that heavy sedation and local will get you a very long way, especially in a co-operative patient, but the practicalities seemed way underexplained, and I couldn't see any advantage at all. In fact, I'd expect it to be a lot more dangerous.
And half the price? Don't make me laugh! Any harder than I am already.
Rolfe.
I could think of theoretical ways one might do it, and I'm not an anaesthetist, but two questions kept coming up. How. and Why.
The irony is that the biggest puzzle of the lot wasn't anything to do with acupuncture, but what the hell was going on on that open-heart op. I can quite imagine that heavy sedation and local will get you a very long way, especially in a co-operative patient, but the practicalities seemed way underexplained, and I couldn't see any advantage at all. In fact, I'd expect it to be a lot more dangerous.
And half the price? Don't make me laugh! Any harder than I am already.
Rolfe.
Howdy,
Well I watched the program. It took about an hour to get to the experiment and then they presented the results very sparsely. We will have to wait for the paper for a real insight into what was going on - but it seems interesting. My interpretation of the sparse info follows:
1) They seemed to use both MEG and MRI - not sure which of these was the basis for the displayed results.
2) Their control was shallow insertion of a needle in an acupuncture point - I would have preferred a normal ("deep") insertion in a non-acupuncture point as will become clear.
3) The shallow "control" insertion appeared to showed activation of the somatosensory cortex.
4) The deep "acupuncture" insertion showed inactivation of the limbic "pain matrix" ONLY WHEN IT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH A DECHI PERCEPT
The program reported this as a "physiological effect of acupuncture" which I think is way overstating the evidence. I would agree though that it seems to be a neural correlate of the "dechi" sensation - which is of itself interesting. In order to test "acupuncture" they should have tried to get dechi from deep insertion into a non-acupuncture point - this was voiced as a control but rejected for some unclear reason. It is also unshown that this dechi sensation is unique to acupuncture. I would have expected a more cautious scientific interpretation of what the results really mean.
Finally the same subjects seemed to receive both "control" and acupuncture insertions in the same point. It is plausible that the shallow insertions may have ceased to have had any effect because of being a less salient sensation. Like trying to hear a pin-drop on a busy street - the more salient stimulus causes the system to adapt and the neurons will cease to fire in response to the less salient stimulus.
John.
Well I watched the program. It took about an hour to get to the experiment and then they presented the results very sparsely. We will have to wait for the paper for a real insight into what was going on - but it seems interesting. My interpretation of the sparse info follows:
1) They seemed to use both MEG and MRI - not sure which of these was the basis for the displayed results.
2) Their control was shallow insertion of a needle in an acupuncture point - I would have preferred a normal ("deep") insertion in a non-acupuncture point as will become clear.
3) The shallow "control" insertion appeared to showed activation of the somatosensory cortex.
4) The deep "acupuncture" insertion showed inactivation of the limbic "pain matrix" ONLY WHEN IT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH A DECHI PERCEPT
The program reported this as a "physiological effect of acupuncture" which I think is way overstating the evidence. I would agree though that it seems to be a neural correlate of the "dechi" sensation - which is of itself interesting. In order to test "acupuncture" they should have tried to get dechi from deep insertion into a non-acupuncture point - this was voiced as a control but rejected for some unclear reason. It is also unshown that this dechi sensation is unique to acupuncture. I would have expected a more cautious scientific interpretation of what the results really mean.
Finally the same subjects seemed to receive both "control" and acupuncture insertions in the same point. It is plausible that the shallow insertions may have ceased to have had any effect because of being a less salient sensation. Like trying to hear a pin-drop on a busy street - the more salient stimulus causes the system to adapt and the neurons will cease to fire in response to the less salient stimulus.
John.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Excuse me, so how does that make her a "scientist", as she kept claiming? Did nobody connected with this programme realise any of the huge yawning flaws? Or even that a quick explanation of the breathing thing might have been a good idea?
Oh, surely the entire team doing the filming couldn't have failed to realise that was a question one might feel the need to ask? Say not so!
Rolfe.
Asolepius
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She is apparently a respected physicist, although she obviously has a career ahead as a TV presenter - no compliment intended.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Indeed. For what it's worth, I concur.
I also felt that Ernst's acceptance of the other (osteoarthritis) study was premature - what about independent replication, pray? But then I think he is under a bit of pressure to say something positive about some SCAM discipline.
Rolfe.
In fairness to him I noticed a rather hasty cut at the end of that particular sentence. Anyone want to bet on the next word? Put me down a tenner for "but".
Zendal Darkman
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Out of interest, Regarding the arthritis study
Did the patients know of the nature of the three groups? (especially the fake acupuncture)?
Did the same people (or people with the same ethnic origin
) administer the real and fake acupuncture?
Has anyone got a link to the paper?
Did the patients know of the nature of the three groups? (especially the fake acupuncture)?
Did the same people (or people with the same ethnic origin
) administer the real and fake acupuncture? Has anyone got a link to the paper?
dogbite666
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What really annoyed me is that the presenter unaquivicably accepted accupuncture. Why didn't she do a test with a control of sticking needles into any old part of the body instead of the accupuncture points. I am quite happy to accept that sticking needles into the body can have an effect on the nerve system and in some cases ease pain. However, I don't by the who Chi thing, energy meridians, and the rest of the accupuncture clap-trap.
If I could prove in an experiment that sticking needles into parts of the body eased pain, would I be eligable for the JREF $1million?
If I could prove in an experiment that sticking needles into parts of the body eased pain, would I be eligable for the JREF $1million?
Not stated. My guess is that they had to be fully informed.
Yes same guy - qualified acupuncturist.Did the same people (or people with the same ethnic origin
Nothing obvious on pubmed. Anyone remember the name of any of the scientists?
Rolfe
Adult human female
What really annoyed me was that the presenter was an uncritical, wide-eyed, grinning creduloid who kept describing herself as a "scientist".
Rolfe.
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Interesting Ian
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What a magnificent use of the license fee.
As pointed out the whole open heart surgery looks like a fraud. I wonder could the BBC be challenged to review the actual raw footage, as there were no clean pans from the patient to the actual surgery.
Then we had a 'placebo controlled' study, which only proves once again that single blind studies in medicine are not good enough. Possibly the 'acupuncturist' muttering under his breath how it wasn't going to work when doing the control might have had an influence?
Then we saw that how sticking pins in and around the knees helped relieve to knee pain? I would have thought that the acupuncture point for the knee would have been say the little finger?
Finally they proved that if you prick the skin, or insert a needle more deeply and wiggle it around different parts of the brain 'light up' and to different degrees. The fact that the results mightn't match up with current understanding of the brain may just show that out current understanding of how the brain processes pain needs revising.
As pointed out the whole open heart surgery looks like a fraud. I wonder could the BBC be challenged to review the actual raw footage, as there were no clean pans from the patient to the actual surgery.
Then we had a 'placebo controlled' study, which only proves once again that single blind studies in medicine are not good enough. Possibly the 'acupuncturist' muttering under his breath how it wasn't going to work when doing the control might have had an influence?
Then we saw that how sticking pins in and around the knees helped relieve to knee pain? I would have thought that the acupuncture point for the knee would have been say the little finger?
Finally they proved that if you prick the skin, or insert a needle more deeply and wiggle it around different parts of the brain 'light up' and to different degrees. The fact that the results mightn't match up with current understanding of the brain may just show that out current understanding of how the brain processes pain needs revising.
Interesting Ian
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I thought she was great. Extremely intelligent and attractive and cool. All together an excellent programme which strongly suggests there is something to acupuncture. Skeptics have been proved to be wrong yet again. Your hysterical ranting does you little credit. I note you didn't demand upteen independent replications for the study into homeopathy that horizon covered. I wonder why. Hang on a sec, lets see if I can guess. Because the results were negative?
Rolfe
Adult human female
First, there have been replications, including another (Yank) TV show. Second, the onus is on the claimant to prove the claim. To the point of independent replication. Something I'm still waiting for with any even remotely-credible-looking acupuncture trial, and never expect to see in homoeopathy.
By the way, you would. Obviously a great choice of presenter for those who think with something a bit south of their actual head.
Rolfe.
By the way, you would. Obviously a great choice of presenter for those who think with something a bit south of their actual head.
Rolfe.