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BBC Programme to show acupuncture deactivates brain

richardm said:
I believe that if you produce a TV programme about alternative medicine and do not trot out something along those lines then you will violate a fundamental law of the Universe and everything will instantly evaporate in a puff of ozone.

In this case, the moment came when some Tai Chi exponents were onscreen around 27 minutes in.

The universe is saved!
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Yes - I did note that comment.
Also noted the bit where she said "The idea of chi is right at the heart of acupuncture. The Chinese see it as a universal energy that flows around the world and inside every one of us." So does our objective physics professor have anything to say about this superstitious "energy"?

No. :mad:

I think this programme might serve as a documentary charting the conversion of an ostensibly sensible individual into a raving woo-woo.
 
Deetee said:
As Oh, and finally, are acupuncture needles non-ferromagnetic?
I think they are stainless steel. What might this mean when interpreting the "effect" of the needles in the tissues in a 3 tesla magnetic field?
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Good point Dee, I didnt think of that. However, I would have expected the team to have taken a baseline picture with the scanner whilst the needle was in the magnetic field but not in the patients hand. Would a needle in a 3Tesla field be pulled onto the magnet? I remember before the patient went into the scanner they ran a metal detector over her to make sure she had no jewelry on her, I guess it's impossible to know what the protocol really was. After Kathy Sykes accepted the 'open heart surgery' facade I have lost faith in her ability to design a water tight protocol for any experiment.

John.
 
Asolepius said:
In short, yes - as another poster has already pointed out, and you will find if you Google `awake open heart surgery'. I was as surprised as you were until I asked the right people.
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I'm still puzzled by this. Now it's been mentioned, I do know that in man the mediastinum is a much more robust structure than in any of the species I deal with - I was always astonished that inducing a unilateral pneumothorax as a treatment for tuberculous granuloma was feasible. (In the species I deal with, the mediastinum is so delicate that you simply couldn't rely on it to stay intact under any interference at all, let alone be robust enough to maintain the integrity of the pleural space.) So, I can't discount the possibility that one might be able to do what was apparently seen in that programme, that is expose the heart in an open chest while retaining the patient's ability to breathe by relying on keeping the mediastinum intact. Though my mind is still boggling at the idea.

What I really can't get my head around is the idea that anyone would want to, or that the procedure could be regarded as acceptably safe. Yes, keyhole surgery, absolutely, right from the beginning of this thread we were speculating that the advertised "open-heart surgery" might simply be a keyhole procedure, which would simple be a very big "so what". But the idea that any surgeon would be comfortable sawing through the sternum of a non-intubated, non-ventilated patient, and rummaging around within the chest long enough and deep enough and with enough sharp implements to set up a heart-lung bypass, relying only on the integrity of the mediastinal tissues to allow the patient to continue breathing spontaneously, I find very very hard to believe. That anyone would consider this to be preferred prodedure, simply to avoid a general anaesthetic, boggles my mind to the point of complete flat spin.

If that is indeed the case, then of course I defer to what the experts say, but are we really sure about the facts of this? The information on another list I'm discussing this on is very much to the effect that splitting the sternum wide open is not something which would normally be considered without anaesthesia and ventilation.

Rolfe.
 
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dogbite666 said:
I would have expected the team to have taken a baseline picture with the scanner whilst the needle was in the magnetic field but not in the patients hand. Would a needle in a 3Tesla field be pulled onto the magnet?
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I'm no physicist, but I was thinking that if one had a needle within the body in the vicinity of a strong magnetic field (not strong enough to displace the needle), that there may be some local magnetic field set up which could affect structures/nerves nearby, and this could result in some neuronal changes within the brain (then picked up on MRI).
Perhaps they never used steel needles, or there was some shielding, but to me it is something that needs clarification before I conclude that the needling on its own resulted in MRI brain change, as opposed to the fact that a needle generating or within a strong magnetic field resulted in MRI brain change.
 
Deetee said:
Oh, and finally, are acupuncture needles non-ferromagnetic? :confused:
I think they are stainless steel. What might this mean when interpreting the "effect" of the needles in the tissues in a 3 tesla magnetic field?
Perhaps all we can conclude from the trial that needling triggers a neuronal response only if performed in a magnetic field strong enough to rip artificial heart valves out of your chest?
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I am sure that stainless steel is not ferromagnetic. I think they would have got away with this.
 
Rolfe said:
What I really can't get my head around is the idea that anyone would want to, or that the procedure could be regarded as acceptably safe. Rolfe.
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I think that they said in the program that the procedure using acupuncture was a third of the price of the procedure using general anaesthetic? I guess that could be the incentive for a large number of people.
 
Rolfe said:
But the idea that any surgeon would be comfortable sawing through the sternum of a non-intubated, non-ventilated patient, and rummaging around within the chest long enough and deep enough and with enough sharp implements to set up a heart-lung bypass, relying only on the integrity of the mediastinal tissues to allow the patient to continue breathing spontaneously, I find very very hard to believe.
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My first thought is the same as yours - it seems both dangerous and unfeasible. Although counterintuitive, perhaps it is possible though.

There are 2 aspects - one is the adequate maintenance of the integrity of the lungs/mediastinum whilst avoiding doing damage without the control afforded by intubation/ventilation - (this is the more iffy aspect as you indicate), and second the feasibility of adequate analgesia to carry out the procedure. I think this might be conducted under a combination of sedation/systemic analgesia plus some form of regional/spinal block.
One thing I half imagined might happen during the surgery was for the patient to yell "Oww!" and leap up off the table, inadvertently unplugging all the plumbing and instantly bleeding to death! One thing is for sure, the surgeaons will have guaranteed the patient cannot move during surgery - and I don't see how "acupuncture" can achieve that.

I'll try and ask a cardiothoracic surgeon for his view.
 
Tanja said:
I think that they said in the program that the procedure using acupuncture was a third of the price of the procedure using general anaesthetic? I guess that could be the incentive for a large number of people.
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It would be even cheaper if they didn't use the needles, and just relied on the sedation and regional anaesthesia - which I have found is what is done anyway.
 
Tanja said:
I think that they said in the program that the procedure using acupuncture was a third of the price of the procedure using general anaesthetic? I guess that could be the incentive for a large number of people.
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We already covered this. I'm sorry, but that is just one big fat lie. The cost of a general anaesthetic would have been a fairly small fraction of the cost of an entire procedure as complex as this. Of course I can't comment on how the Chinese may choose to structure their prices, but if they are charging twice as much for a general anaesthetic alone as they are charging for a complete open-heart septal repair, then someone is skewing the figures on an industrial scale.

I agree with Deetee. The prospect of the patient moving (a lot or a little) during this procedure is terrifying. This is one of the reasons I'm still not convinced that it's carried out by sane surgeons, or is regarded in any way as a preferred procedure.

Rolfe.
 
It seems the furore over the anaesthetic properties of acupuncture is nothing new. This CSICOP article refers to an earlier case where someone was duped by the Chinese surgeons.
 
Just a word of thanks to the people who have taken the time to do some research behind this - although I'm just lurking it is most appreciated!
 
I think people are being a bit unfair about this program. Kathy Sykes did present a skeptical viewpoint, but was prepared to accept that something may be happening during the procedures, whether it be placebo, actual physiological response or even "qi".
This is why she conducted the experiment at the end, in order to investigate.

I personally believe that acupuncture has some effect on some people, but largely to do with placebo. I am prepared to accept that there may be an actual physiological response happening as well, but I do not know if this is significant to the healing. According to the studies done, there may actual pain relief effect happening, but I would want more studies done to confirm this ( with proper "blinding" procedures in place ).

All the other hocus pocus around "meridians" and "qi" is probably bull, but elements of it could just be a very elaborate model for explaining the actual effects.

BTW: I have had acupuncture to try and treat a frozen shoulder, which didn't work..
 
Rolfe said:
I agree with Deetee. The prospect of the patient moving (a lot or a little) during this procedure is terrifying. This is one of the reasons I'm still not convinced that it's carried out by sane surgeons, or is regarded in any way as a preferred procedure.

Rolfe.
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But this is exactly why the patient is sedated. Have you ever had an upper GI endoscopy? I have had them both with and without sedation. I have no recollection whatever of the procedures under sedation. Although this patient appeared fully conscious, she was actually half asleep. My surgeon colleague assures me that this is normal, although the vast majority of procedures use GA.
 
Rolfe said:
We already covered this. I'm sorry, but that is just one big fat lie. The cost of a general anaesthetic would have been a fairly small fraction of the cost of an entire procedure as complex as this. Of course I can't comment on how the Chinese may choose to structure their prices, but if they are charging twice as much for a general anaesthetic alone as they are charging for a complete open-heart septal repair, then someone is skewing the figures on an industrial scale.
Rolfe.
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From the link to the article about "Awake Open Heart Surgery" in India provided earlier in this thread by Lothian:
On cost, he said: "`it would remain the same, whether performed in the usual way or with the patient's cooperation, when he or she is fully awake."
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Deetee said:
I'll try and ask a cardiothoracic surgeon for his view.
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I will be happy to make a mpeg of the procedure from my digital copy, if you want. I can use whatever mechanism you like to get the file to you (p2p/newsgroup/ftp (i have a server))
 
When given a choice of three theories, people were asked which ones they would like to see taught in science lessons in British schools:

  • [*]44% said creationism should be included
    [*]41% intelligent design
    [*]69% wanted evolution as part of the science curriculum.
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It appears that we have a problem with mathematics as well as science. And I thought we British were unfallible :D
 
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