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Merged BBC program featuring Randi.

Just seen it on catchup.
We all can be conned but for some people it is a lifestyle choice.
 
I haven't finished watching it so far, but I think it's very good so far. Nothing new to me, in that I've heard all the stories directly from the man himself, but it's good to hear some of it from other points of view, and see some of the archive footage I've not seen before. I did want to punch Geller, though.
 
I'm sad to say that although it was slightly interesting, it is also quickly forgotten. I enjoyed the pieces on the Alpha kids, but I thought there should have been more said to emphasize the comparison between them and Geller's tests at SRI.

As for Geller, I felt that the programme was very sour grapes - especially the bit about saying that he is now selling crystal jewellery on QVC. Yes, he is, and he is also a millionaire who is completely bullet-proof to any attempted de-bunking. Just accept it Randi, Geller has won the war.

A bit meh.
 
am I the only one who is uncomfortable with relationship between such people of such large difference in age ?

Not to over focus on 1% of someone's life, but am I the only one that would find it uncomfortable if their friends started a relationship where one of them was 61 and the other 16 at the beginning and started living together not so long afterwards. Surely large power differences in relationships are not healthy and anyone under mental age 21 is not vulnerable to manipulation by the older one.
- Not commenting would be setting a bad precedent
However in this case it's too difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.
 
Film seems to made a big impact in UK

Twitter was afire with people who'd never heard of Randi ..and were now totally impressed.

some interesting points
"Geller made a valid point, despite Randi's valiant efforts, bullcrap is now bigger than ever & even getting bigger"

not sure I agree 100% but it shows the dynamics of many subjects are not balanced
for many subjects scams etc. the natural force seems 95% for the false belief vs 5% a truer less exciting perspective

someone quoted "The public doesn't listen when they are told straightforward facts...they'd rather have the romance* & the lies" James Randi
 
Just watched. I thought it was a very good summary of most, but not all of the main points of his career.The exquisite but simple expose of Hydrik,the exposes of Geller, Popov, Project Alpha, Carlos but there was only a single passing reference to the Million Dollar Prize. Some archive clips (although most probably on Youtube) that I hadn't seen before. Also thankfully it didn't ignore the Jose identity fraud but made it a central part of the doc's narrative.
For those disappointed and have seen/heard it al before, I think you have to realise this is for general broadcast and distinction and as a fairly balanced introduction (not a hagiography) to Randi and the issues of related investigations it works, as I believe most people still don't know the history or have even heard of Randi.
 
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Rrose Selavy said:
Also thankfully it didn't ignore the Jose identity fraud but made it a central part of the doc's narrative.
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I don't think they can have ignored it; I'm pretty sure it came to light during the filming of the documentary, and that the film-makers can't have known about it when they started.

ETA: I know they were filming at TAM in July 2011 (you can see that in the movie, and I saw them there, too), and the identify fraud came to light in September 2011.

Mystery has shrouded Alvarez's true identity since he was arrested under the name "John Doe" at Randi's Plantation home on Sept. 8.
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stewgreenUK said:
am I the only one who is uncomfortable with relationship between such people of such large difference in age ?

Not to over focus on 1% of someone's life, but am I the only one that would find it uncomfortable if their friends started a relationship where one of them was 61 and the other 16 at the beginning and started living together not so long afterwards. Surely large power differences in relationships are not healthy and anyone under mental age 21 is not vulnerable to manipulation by the older one.
- Not commenting would be setting a bad precedent
However in this case it's too difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.
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I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. As far as I can tell, Deyvi Pena was 22 when he went to the USA. The identity he adopted, of Jose Alvarez, was younger than his real age.

(The quote is from September 2011.)
Alvarez is purportedly 43 years old, seven years younger than Pena. The Sun Sentinel obtained a copy of an immigration visa for the Deyvi Pena who attended the Art Institute. It shows Pena came to the United States from Venezuela in March 1984, when he was 22. Pena would be 50 today, according to the date of birth on the student visa.

When Alvarez first performed as "Carlos," Randi billed him as a 19-year-old artist with no experience as a channeler. The New York man whose identity was allegedly appropriated by Alvarez also was 19 at the time.
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First of all, I sympathise with the real Jose Alvarez,who was in no way to blame for the inconvenience he suffered when he applied for a passport. Missing his sister's wedding may be the least part of his difficulties. Getting on the wrong side of any department of the US government can be very unpleasant, particularly since 9/11.

The repetition of Randi's statement that anyone can be fooled by a magician also left me with a nagging worry;- It felt a bit like a good spy story, where everyone, including the hero, is lying to everyone else, so you have no idea who or what to believe and even at the end you wonder if the good guy won, or if the good guys were just as bad as the bad guys.

I felt the end of the programme, gave the impression that everyone was fooled by someone and that there is no moral difference between what Popoff and Gellar did and what Randi did.

There is, I believe. But I may have been fooled.
 
stewgreenUK said:
am I the only one who is uncomfortable with relationship between such people of such large difference in age ?

Not to over focus on 1% of someone's life, but am I the only one that would find it uncomfortable if their friends started a relationship where one of them was 61 and the other 16 at the beginning and started living together not so long afterwards. Surely large power differences in relationships are not healthy and anyone under mental age 21 is not vulnerable to manipulation by the older one.
Click to expand...

Unless the reporting at the time the identity fraud was discovered is wrong, Randi was 56 when they met, and José (to keep on calling him that, I don't know if he has switched back to his original name now, but José was what he used most of his life) was 22.

This is really not about Randi/José (and I'm still waiting for the torrent to finish so I can watch the film for myself), but I came across the issue of public opinion about age difference in a relationship a lot when I rather closely followed news about the coming out of Tom Daley, who was 19 years old at the time, and his boyfriend was 38 (maybe I should say partner - they've never used either or any term publicly as far as I know, but since they're living together and mostly inseparable, "boyfriend" seems a bit too ephemeral.)

The odd thing is: almost all of the negative or doubting comments about that age difference I saw were on gay sites. Some people painted lurid pictures of poor little Tom, being manipulated by the evil much older Lance, who exploited his supposed Hollywood celebrity status to bedazzle the naive British kid. Nevermind that it showed a complete lack of knowledge about Daley's personality and life experience, and that he was much more famous than Dustin Lance Black. E.g.: on the day of his coming out, Daley had just under 2.5 milliion Twitter followers (which rose to over 2.6 million in the next two days), Black had just over 22,000. But Daley's overwhelmingly female fanbase didn't mind at all. There was some surprise initially, but once they found out a bit more about Black, and especially when pictures of the two of them together started to surface, they were perfectly OK with it. Nobody thought there was something manipulative about their relationship, either way. Strangely, I think it would have been a really big blow to Daley's teen heartthrob status if he'd announced he was in a relationship with a woman twice his age. That would have been weird. Somehow, the fact that it involved another man made it much more acceptable, and his heartthrob status remains pristinely intact.

But generally, where does this idea come from that in a relationship with an age gap, the older person must be the manipulator, and the younger one the victim? Based on purely anecdotal observation, I'd say it's often the other way round. People don't get more manipulative as they get older, and very young people are quite capable of manipulating someone much older who's infatuated with them to their own advantage.

The most important point however, IMO, is that there something seriously wrong when a relationship has to be described in terms of "manipulation", or "power differences" between the partners. In a healthy relationship, people treat each other as equals, regardless of age differences or wealth differences.
 
thanks Zooterkin for the clarification about the ages. I heard 16 in the Alvarez segment of the movie when they were playing quick clips from the Australian TV etc... I thought Alvarez really only 16 when Randi started to build the sting ? I missed the bit that Pena was actually 3 odd years older . So was 22 when he met Randi.. OK that clearly legal but I still think relationships between 22 year old and a 56 year old should be questioned, especially when one is effectively the other ones boss. Randi has so much credit in the bank of good works compared to a normal person, there is a moral in doing things for the greater good. In an ideal world they would anticipated the problems the real Alvarez was going to have and done something to prevent them. I do hope that something has been done for him ..and I wouldn't link that a horde of media people and lawyers crashing his life would improve it.

- I checked the FB page and Kickstarter forum and see half a dozen annoyed people and maybe many more with gritted teeth. But surely the movie org can pull a special treat out of the bag to reward the kickstarter backers, after the official release in March 2015 ?
 
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I know one thing, it would be naive of the producers/distributors to expect the disassembled hordes of the internet not to record, copy, upload, torrent, and generally make it available in the 6 months between this BBC broadcast and it's theatrical release. Not much they can do but probably accounts for the reluctance to admit that it is actually the "Honest Liar" under another name.
 
Rrose Selavy said:
I know one thing, it would be naive of the producers/distributors to expect the disassembled hordes of the internet not to record, copy, upload, torrent, and generally make it available in the 6 months between this BBC broadcast and it's theatrical release. Not much they can do but probably accounts for the reluctance to admit that it is actually the "Honest Liar" under another name.
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On PirateBay, they're using the comments section to ask people who have gotten it from there to make a donation, or buy the movie once it's out, which seems reasonable. I think I'll make a donation, that way I can also check whether my brand-new Paypal account has been successfully linked to my bank account. It's a very nice and touching documentary. I'm currently seeding it, for the benefit of those who can't watch the BBC, and won't be able to see a US theatrical release either. Judging by my upload speed, as one of currently about 450 seeders, there is a lot of interest.
 
stewgreenUK said:
OK that clearly legal but I still think relationships between 22 year old and a 56 year old should be questioned, especially when one is effectively the other ones boss.
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(a) Who gave you the right to question other people's relationships, especially people you don't know at all? And every stay-at-home mum is in a much more dependent positionp to her husband than José, with a successful career of his own, ever was to Randi.

(b) Doesn't the fact that this relationship has lasted for 28 years so far tell you something?

In an ideal world they would anticipated the problems the real Alvarez was going to have and done something to prevent them.
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They thought the real Alvarez had died as a child. That was what Deyvi Pena was told when he took the desperate measure of buying his identity.

In an ideal world, José and Randi could have gotten married 28 years ago, and nothing bad would have ever happened to the real José Alvarez.
 
Rrose Selavy said:
I know one thing, it would be naive of the producers/distributors to expect the disassembled hordes of the internet not to record, copy, upload, torrent, and generally make it available in the 6 months between this BBC broadcast and it's theatrical release. Not much they can do but probably accounts for the reluctance to admit that it is actually the "Honest Liar" under another name.
Click to expand...


There's a statement from the makers in the other thread, about the funding of the documentary. It seems they are looking for a way to make the film available to the backers sooner rather than later. It sounds like they missed the full implications of the BBC deal for them, financially.
 
I haven't watched it, as it's not available here except illegally, but I just want to comment on the MDC.

Yes, it's deserving of a mention, but considering that no-one ever has made it past preliminary testing, it's reasonable not to discuss it further in a biopic about a fascinating person.
 
I just realised An Honest Liar was aired on Danish television last night, as part of the broadcaster's Dokumania series. I'll be watching it on-demand later on, as I haven't got the time just now.
 
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