Bazant's crush-down/crush-up model

....There is no doubt that Bazant uses the concept of crush down, then crush up when describing WTC1 and 2.

This is a mistake and it would be nice if at least one regular poster at JREF would be honest enough to admit it.
The Bazant "Crush up/crush down" concept is a global energy concept. It does not describe in any level of detail how the WTC1 and WTC2 towers collapsed. Anyone using Bazant to do detailed analysis would be well advised to work from the basis of how the global collapse of both those towers actually progressed.

HINT: Start thinking of how the three main portions of both the top block and the lower tower would/must/did interact in the global collapse. Those three being (1) Outer tube columns; (2) Floors; AND (3) Core.

(And don't forget to allow for some overlap because the three portions did not necessarily fall in complete alignment.

For example as the top block fell did the outer tube columns of the top block fall inside or outside the tube of the lower tower? Can we see what happened? If not what difference would it make which one happened?

Then on "crushing" during the global collapse were the columns of the outer tube "crushed". ie overloaded into end for end buckling failure? Ditto for the core columns. Then quantify the orders of magnitude of the different things that probably happened.)

:)
 
Maybe if we all write it a thousand times, the denier will get it.

Bazant and Zhou's "crush down / crush up" model is a model. It represents the best case from the standpoint of structural survival. It is not an accurate representation of the precise blow-by-blow collapse, nor could it be. It was written on September 13, 2001!

Bazant and Zhou's model shows that even the limiting case of collision is expected to totally collapse. Therefore, no matter what the details are, the structure is expected to collapse. There is no mystery in the total collapse of either WTC 1 or WTC 2.

Bazant and Zhou's model also shows that the dominant factor in the timing of collapse is the momentum transfer between moving portions. Not the strength, not how the structure was hit, not its failure modes. The momentum transfer is pretty much the same regardless of the details of collapse. Therefore, the collapse timing they estimate is also close to reality (provided one doesn't include the core remnant in the collapse time).

That's it. The Truthers have nothing, so they're going for the semantic argument and trying to create a false dichotomy. This in no way simulates a legitimate controversy. The matter is settled.
 
It seems that it is now established that the Bazant model is just that- a model that has little resemblance to real-world events. It's merely a hypothesis.

All that comes out of it is the abiding idea of a pile-driving top one-tenth of the building and a riduculous notion of an all-destroying and growing layer of compressed rubble that was somehow compressed without any 'jolt' having being observed.

So if we dispense with Bazant where are we at ?

Free-for-all land- that's where.

There IS no other explanation than Bazant's model. NIST did not investigate past the inititiation phase by their own admission.

Without Bazant it is fair to say that the government has NO explanation for how the Twin Towers fell.
 
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So if we dispense with Bazant where are we at ?

Free-for-all land- that's where.

Exactly right, Bill.

Once you throw out reality, all other explanations, possible or otherwise (in your case, mostly otherwise) become equally viable. Which is why you have a movement pushing magic thermite, micro-nukes and space beams (not one of which is real) simultaneously.
 
Maybe if we all write it a thousand times, the denier will get it.

Bazant and Zhou's "crush down / crush up" model is a model. It represents the best case from the standpoint of structural survival. It is not an accurate representation of the precise blow-by-blow collapse, nor could it be. It was written on September 13, 2001!...
Correct. It is in effect a global overview from the perspective of available energy.
...Bazant and Zhou's model shows that even the limiting case of collision is expected to totally collapse. Therefore, no matter what the details are, the structure is expected to collapse. There is no mystery in the total collapse of either WTC 1 or WTC 2...
Correct on all three points. The time when use of Bazant goes off the rails is when people try to extend it to details which it glosses over and where it does not fit. No fault of Bazant. People should not extend it beyond its premise assumptions.
 
Bazant and Zhou's model shows that even the limiting case of collision is expected to totally collapse. Therefore, no matter what the details are, the structure is expected to collapse.
With the caveat of the initial state assumptions, in energetics terms, sure.

There's quite a leap between the NIST virtual modelled analysis end-point, and the Bazant model initial state though.
 
R Mackey, the progressive dynamics of crush down, crush up is in Bazant and Verdure, 2007, not Bazant and Zhao, 2002.
i cited at least 3 mistakes in Bazant and Le (2007) and BLGB (2008). Concerning the mechanics of progressive collapse or Bazant's concept that crush down happens before significant crush up, please see the correct papers.

i gave 3 specific examples of where Bazant applies the 1-D progressive collapse stick model derived in Bazant and Verdure (2007) to WTC1 and 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....

In total i will give 7 specific examples of Bazant and David Benson applying the 1-D crush up, crush down stick model and the concept of crush down, then crush up to WTC1 and 2.

At least 3 of the examples will be from the papers BV, BL and BLGB (all published after 2007, not to be confused with BZ publiished in 2002).

The other 4 examples will come from publicly available discussions I and others have had with David Benson. David makes his views on the applicability of crush down, then crush up and the BV equations of motion to WTC1 very, very clear in 900 posts spanning 2 years at The 911 forum. Most of his posts cover this very subject.

Why 7 examples? I've already provided 3 and they were just ignored. I'll will go over those 3 examples in detail and provide many more from the direct quotes of David Benson.

But why stop at 7 if I can find much more in David's posts in The 911 Forum and Phys.org? I'll give as many as it takes to penetrate the thick fog of JREF
 
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This has come into my mind when thinking about this before and I have no idea if it's right so can someone explain why it's wrong.

The forces acting on the upper and lower blocks are equal but opposite, the force acting on the lower block does not accelerate the lower block downwards but the force on the upper block does accelerate the upper block upwards so there is more destructive force acting on the lower block.
 
i cited at least 3 mistakes in Bazant and Le (2007) and BLGB (2008).
Either I am in his ignore list, or the ignorance of my arguments is mere dishonesty. I explained why these were not "mistakes" in post #41.
 
David Benson to me, 2008:

"One dimensional homogenous structure crush down is indeed what Newton's laws require. This was first briefly explained in Bazant & Verdure and elaborated more fully in Bazant's 'reply to comments' in a more recent issue of J. Engg. Mechanics.

Of course, the collapse of WTC 1 only begins to approach the assumption of homogeneity after about three floors are crushed. After that, the layer of crushed materials does the damage to the portion below and protects the part above (ideally) from further damage. In the actual event, we know that the spire punched through the top portion; after that the top portion began to fall apart. It seems that it fell completely off before the crush down was complete, but not much before.

If this detail is of sufficient importance, find the video showing the antenna tower flying away at about a 70 degree angle. Do the timing analyss to determine how long after initiation this was and, if possible, how high up the antenna tower was at that time.

My claim of not much before the end of crush down is based on the excellent timing fit of BLGB. Some adjustment, of course, can be made, but not having the top portion fall off the crushed zone at, say, 4 seconds into the collapse.n the following quote David Benson is explaining to me that the WTC1 "spire" must have punctured through the roof of the famous upper block."

From this post:

http://the911forum.freeforums.org/post763.html#p763


In this post he is trying to explain to me why the WTC1 "spire" is consistent with the Bazant crush down, crush up idea and an "upper block". He explains that the 60+ story columns must have "punctured" the famous upper block.


Do you see how he applied specific features of the stick model in BV to WTC1?

I could probably find 50 different examples in his posts.

Why don't you read what he posted before lecturing me on what he intended?
 
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Either I am in his ignore list, or the ignorance of my arguments is mere dishonesty. I explained why these were not "mistakes" in post #41.

It's the latter.

This has come into my mind when thinking about this before and I have no idea if it's right so can someone explain why it's wrong.

The forces acting on the upper and lower blocks are equal but opposite, the force acting on the lower block does not accelerate the lower block downwards but the force on the upper block does accelerate the upper block upwards so there is more destructive force acting on the lower block.

This is not the only factor, but it too is partially correct.

Think of it in terms of impulse -- the total change of momentum at a particular impact. Impulse is equal and opposite, by conservation of momentum. Impulse is equal to F delta-T (force times the time over which the force is applied), or M delta-V (the raw change of momentum in its familiar definition P = m V).

When we look at the "upper block," it's delta-V is smaller than the delta-V experienced by the newly broken part of the lower block. As you say, the upper block decelerates by an average 1/3 g, while the lower block accelerates by an average 2/3 g. This is because the participating part of the lower block masses less than the participating part of the upper block -- it really is the compacted mass and upper block versus a small number of floors at a time, not the entire lower block.

The reason only part of the lower block participates at any given time is because the lower block is still a mostly intact sparse structure of braced columns. When it's hit, the columns lose bracing, get loaded eccentrically, shear their welds and bolts, and in some cases are totally overwhelmed and fracture entirely. These pieces break at a stress much too low to actually support the descending mass. This also has nothing to do with the strength of the perfectly intact building -- the descending rubble heap isn't contacting the lower structure at its strongest points, and it's introducing brand new failure modes, so the effective opposing strength of the lower structure is far lower than its ideal carrying capacity. Furthermore, where the lower structure does resist at or near its ideal strength, it can only do so for a very brief delta-T -- until reaching its failure strain, which takes only about ten milliseconds at the speeds of collapse -- and this is not enough to amount to all that much total impulse.

The upper chunk, in contrast, is cushioned by a thick layer of rubble. This is compacted about as far as it can, thus it doesn't have those complex failure modes and it doesn't suffer much more "damage" even at much higher stresses. So the rubble pile remains, and the lower structure gives way. This is for the same reason you don't sink into the ground, even though you can push your finger easily through a cupful of soil.

The "upper block," what remains of it, rides on top of this cushion of debris. It is supported pretty well. It also only decelerates at that lower rate, thanks to the much greater inertia of the upper block + debris. So the only real force it suffers is the inertial force, i.e. its own self-weight times its deceleration, again about 1/3 g. It can be expected to survive this deceleration. It's only when the rubble pile has nowhere else to go and the upper block has to suddenly stop, dissipating all of its momentum in mere milliseconds, that it totally fails.

Again, this is slightly idealized, but you get the point. Unless you're a Truther.
 
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This has come into my mind when thinking about this before and I have no idea if it's right so can someone explain why it's wrong.

The forces acting on the upper and lower blocks are equal but opposite, the force acting on the lower block does not accelerate the lower block downwards but the force on the upper block does accelerate the upper block upwards so there is more destructive force acting on the lower block.

It's nice to see Heiwa's 'Bounce' back in circulation.
 
Pgimeno,
BLGB was written by Bazant, Le, Greening and David Benson. Le is a graduate student, so that leaves 3 PhDs: Bazant, Greening and Benson.

I have had the pleasure of communicating with Drs Greening and Benson over a long period of time in a small, cozy forum.

David Benson has done the most follow-up work with the application of crush up, crush down equations of motion in Bazant and Verdure first published in 2007 and expanded upon in Bazant Le in 2008 and BLGB in 2008. Much of this work is available for viewing in well over 1000 posts in 2 different forums.
If you want to know about the Bazant concept of crush down, then crush up and how it fits to current data, David Benson is certainly the person to ask and if you knew anything about this subject you would know that. If you really cared about the subject you would read the posts of David Benson instead of wasting your time posting your own barely formulated, personal opinions on this thread.

You would also know that David Benson probably has more contact with Dr Bazant over this issue than anyone else had you bothered to read his posts.

The discription given by R Mackey in his last post is not "slightly idealized", it is pure fantasy and the photographic record proves it.

The truth is that the origin of the Bazant concept of crush down, then crush up can be found in BV.The reasoning for little or no early crush up is that the calculated upward force is insufficient to buckle the columns upwards. This looks good in 1-D but in a real 3 dimensional building nobody would expect the survivability of the upper block to depend on it's column strength.

Nobody would be naive enough to claim that the upper portion can be expected to survive because of it's column strength.
If you expand the 1-D stick model to a 3-D "block" and you really believe the top "block" will ride a layer of debris to earth because there is insufficient upward force to buckle the upper columns, you are clearly living in a dream.
Yet so many of the Bazant loyalists have crossed this line of confusing the model with reality by imagining the 1-D stick model in BV can be applied to real buildings. A great example is Dr Benson. The last post by R Mackey is another.

This is why I will continue to post examples of the stick model being applied to WTC1 and 2 in the Bazant papers and the posts of David Benson. It may take up to 10 examples but I am confident penetrate the JREF fog by giving repeated examples.
 
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It isn't the jref 'fog' you need to penetrate, it's the world's rank-and-file scientific and engineering communities, because they certainly aren't raising a stink about it.
 
BLGB was written by Bazant, Le, Greening and David Benson. Le is a graduate student, so that leaves 3 PhDs: Bazant, Greening and Benson.

I have had the pleasure of communicating with Drs Greening and Benson over a long period of time in a small, cozy forum.

David Benson has done the most follow-up work with the application of crush up, crush down equations of motion in Bazant and Verdure first published in 2007 and expanded upon in Bazant Le in 2008 and BLGB in 2008. Much of this work is available for viewing in well over 1000 posts in 2 different forums.
If you want to know about the Bazant concept of crush down, then crush up and how it fits to current data, David Benson is certainly the person to ask and if you knew anything about this subject you would know that. If you really cared about the subject you would read the posts of David Benson instead of wasting your time posting your own barely formulated, personal opinions on this thread.

You would also know that David Benson probably has more contact with Dr Bazant over this issue than anyone else had you bothered to read his posts.
Sorry, MT, but I think you want your own confusion of ideas to spread to everyone else.

Despite all your juggling, you were talking about Bazant, not Benson.

If Benson is attempting to say that the BV model of crush-down/crush-up applies literally to the WTC, that is Benson's problem which was not being discussed here until you came up with it a few posts ago.

However, what you brought up was three specific examples which you said were Bazant's; they certainly appear in works co-authored by Bazant and one of them is part of BLGB, in which Benson also participated. When you brought it up you implied that that last one was written by Bazant, not Benson. [ref] Your exact sentence was (emphasis mine): "Does Bazant seem to believe that the concept of crush down, then crush up can be applied to WTC1? From the above quote, clearly he does".

I can guess in your motivation an attempt to fuse Bazant with Benson to rebut Benson and claim to have beaten Bazant. That's a clear strawman; you can attempt to push it here but I doubt you will have any success except in the most gullible people like bill smith and so.

There are three main papers co-authored by Bazant of interest here: BZ, BV and BLGB. In BLGB there's some room for interpretation that the model is applied literally to the WTC towers, maybe in part because of Benson's co-authorship, but definitely not in the others. Even in BLGB, there are strong hints that they know they are handling just an idealized model that doesn't represent the real world for some purposes, like the tilt I mentioned. In the addendum of BZ, Bazant says:

Once accurate computer simulations are carried out, various details of the failure mechanism will undoubtedly be found to differ from the simplifying hypotheses made. Errors by a factor of 2 would not be terribly surprising. But that would hardly matter since the analysis in the paper reveals order-of-magnitude differences between the dynamic loads and the structural resistance.
(Bazant and Zhou, Addendum to "Why Did the World Trande Center Collapse?-Simple Analysis", p.370, p.7 in the PDF)

Does that sound to you like written by someone who believes that his model applies literally to the real world case of the WTC?

Yet so many of the Bazant loyalists have crossed this line of confusing the model with reality by imagining the 1-D stick model in BV can be applied to real buildings. A great example is Dr Benson. The last post by R Mackey is another.
What do you mean by Bazant loyalist? What prevents the BV model being applied to real buildings given the appropriate conditions?

Bazant's model does some simplifying assumptions. These assumptions include, among others, column-to-column impact with no tilt whatsoever. If these conditions occur in real buildings, nothing prevents the BV model to apply literally to them. I think that some vérinage demolitions are a live proof of that.

You seem to be tracing a line between "can be applied to all real buildings" and "can't be applied to any real building". That's unrealistic; that's a very gross line within which there is an ample range of cases which you're dismissing without a reason.

This is why I will continue to post examples of the stick model being applied to WTC1 and 2 in the Bazant papers and the posts of David Benson. It may take up to 10 examples but I am confident penetrate the JREF fog by giving repeated examples.
If you think there's a point to that, go on. Bill Smith and ergo will surely be convinced.
 
What actual value or benefit do we derive from a wholly fantastical Bazant model ? Should we not dump Bazant and deal with the reality of bricks and mortar collapsing ?
 
6 examples from Bazant and Verdure where Bazant’s derived 1-D stick model is taken to accurately reflect the behavior of real buildings, including the WTC towers:

Link to the paper:
Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World
Trade Center and Building Demolitions
Zdenfk P. Bažant, F.ASCE; and Mathieu Verdure
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/pe...Papers/466.pdf


BV abstract pg 308: “It is argued that, using inverse analysis, one could identify these parameters from a precise record of the motion of floors of a collapsing building. Due to a shroud of dust and smoke, the videos of the World Trade Center are only of limited use. It is proposed to obtain such records by monitoring _with millisecond accuracy_ the precise time history of displacements in different modes of building demolitions. The monitoring could be accomplished by real-time telemetry from sacrificial accelerometers, or by high-speed optical camera. The resulting information on energy absorption capability would be valuable for the rating of various structural systems and for inferring their collapse mode under extreme fire, internal explosion, external blast, impact or other kinds of terrorist attack, as well as earthquake and foundation movements.”

He is obviously suggesting that the 1-D stick model presented in this paper can be applied to real buildings. He is clearly arguing that the crush up and crush down equations (eqs 12 and 17) and the concept of crush down, then crush up can be applied to real 3-D buildings.

BV introduction pg 308, column 2: “A simplified one-dimensional analytical
solution of the collapse front propagation will be presented. It
will be shown how this solution can be used to determine the
energy absorption capability of individual stories if the motion
history is precisely recorded. Because of the shroud of dust and
smoke, these histories can be identified from the videos of the
collapsing WTC towers only for the first few seconds of collapse,
and so little can be learned in this regard from that collapse.
However, monitoring of tall building demolitions, which represent
one kind of progressive collapse, could provide such
histories. Development of a simple theory amenable to inverse
analysis of these histories is the key. It would permit extracting
valuable information on the energy absorption capability of various
types of structural systems in various collapse modes, and is,
therefore, the main objective of this paper.”

There is no doubt that he beleives these equations and the concept of crush down, then crush up represent the behavior of real buildings. He suggests the equations can be used to extract valuable information for real buildings. He states that application to real buildings is the main objective of the paper.
Not surprisingly, he applies the model to determine specific behavior of WTC1 and 2 in his later papers (BL and BLGB).



BV, What Can We Learn?—Proposal for Monitoring
Demolitions, pg 315-316: “We have seen that the main unknown in predicting cohesive
collapse is the mean energy dissipation Wf per story. The variable
mew(z) is known from the design, and the contraction ratio gamma(z)
can be reasonably estimated from Eq. (1) based on observing
the rubble heap after collapse. But a theoretical or computational
prediction of Fc is extremely difficult and fraught with
uncertainty. Eqs. (12) and (17) show that Fc(z) can be evaluated from
precise monitoring of motion history z(t) and y(t), provided
that mewz) and gamma(z) are known. A millisecond accuracy for
z(t) or y(t) would be required. Such information can, in theory,
be extracted from a high-speed camera record of the collapse.
Approximate information could be extracted from a
regular video of collapse, but only for the first few seconds
of collapse because later all of the moving part of the WTC
towers became shrouded in a cloud of dust and smoke (the visible
lower edge of the cloud of dust and debris expelled from
the tower was surely not the collapse front but was moving
ahead of it, by some unknown distance). Analysis of the record of
the first few seconds of collapse (NIST 2005) is planned, but
despite thousands of videos, not much can be learned from the
WTC.
(Major_Tom note: “mew” and “gamma” represent greek letters.)

He clearly thinks his 1-D model and his concept of crush down, then crush up can be used to extract real information from real, 3-d buildings.

BV, Implications and conclusions, pg 318 column 2:
4. The mode and duration of collapse of WTC towers are consistent
with the present model, but not much could be learned
because, after the first few seconds, the motion became obstructed
from view by a shroud of dust and smoke.

He states that to his knowledge the 1-D stick model and the concept of crush down, then crush up fits WTC1 and 2 behavior. The confirms this believe many times by applying the model to WTC1 and 2 in his following papers BL and BLGB.

5. The present idealized model allows simple inverse analysis
which can yield the crushing energy per story and other
properties of the structure from a precisely recorded history
of motion during collapse. From the crushing energy, one can
infer the collapse mode, e.g., single-story or multistory buckling
of columns.

Yes, he really believes crush down equations 12 and crush up equations 17 and the concept of crush down, then crush up represent the behavior of real buildings.

6. It is proposed to monitor the precise time history of displacements
in building demolitions—for example, by radio telemetry
from sacrificial accelerometers, or high-speed optical
camera—and to engineer different modes of collapse to be
monitored. This should provide invaluable information on
the energy absorption capability of various structural systems,
needed for assessing the effects of explosions, impacts,
earthquake, and terrorist acts.

He believes that valuable information appliable to the real world can be extracted from these equations. He believes that crush down, then crush up occurs in real buildings and that this is what happened to the WTC towers. In his following papers (BL and BLGB) he claims specific collapse properties of the WTC towers can be known by applying the conclusions of this 1-D stick model.
 
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