Battle of the Bulge

[pgwenthold]

Did Hitler's offensive that led to the Battle of the Bulge have any chance of succeeding? Even if they had taken Belgium, could it have gone much further? Did Germany have enough left to recover to get back strong enough to deal with both fronts?

 

[Craig B]

Did Hitler's offensive that led to the Battle of the Bulge have any chance of succeeding? Even if they had taken Belgium, could it have gone much further? Did Germany have enough left to recover to get back strong enough to deal with both fronts?

No. I can't imagine what Hitler was thinking of. There was no possibility of anything but total collapse. Perhaps he was trying to force the US to offer terms, but even that was beyond the bounds of possibility, because the USSR would have fought on, and the US could hardly withdraw from the Grand Alliance on the eve of victory.

The morrow of victory - that's a different matter.

 

[pgwenthold]

No. I can't imagine what Hitler was thinking of..

Desperation, I presume. I mean, at that point what option did they have? It was either launch some offensive or just surrender, you gotta figure.

When would have the allies reached Berlin without it? Winter was going to slow them down, I suspect, so March, maybe?

 

[Giz]

Desperation, I presume. I mean, at that point what option did they have? It was either launch some offensive or just surrender, you gotta figure.

When would have the allies reached Berlin without it? Winter was going to slow them down, I suspect, so March, maybe?

I think hitler was fantasizing. Probably kidding himself that if Germany could just hold on, land a few more blows, then he would be like Frederick the great (surviving great odds after enough enemies just give up fighting). Not realistic. .. but then, hitler was wedded to the "triumph of the will ", not to rationality.

 

[Trebuchet]

My recollection is that they wanted to seize allied fuel supplies to keep themselves going for a couple more months. And drove right by them.

 

[pgwenthold]

I think hitler was fantasizing. Probably kidding himself that if Germany could just hold on, land a few more blows, then he would be like Frederick the great (surviving great odds after enough enemies just give up fighting). Not realistic. .. but then, hitler was wedded to the "triumph of the will ", not to rationality.

Yeah, he was delusional, but that's why I asked the original question, just to see if there was any basis in reality.

I can't imagine what the generals thought at the time. Then again, as long as Hitler had guys who were willing to kill anyone at his command, they didn't have much choice.

 

[Metullus]

I have always figured that Hitler wanted to cut 21st Army Group off from the Allies' supply base in Normandy. His theory was that Montgomery would soon run out of supplies and die on the vine, effectively putting Britain out of the war. With Britain KO'd, the American 12th Army Group would halt its advance and hold in France. This would give Hitler a chance to reinforce in the east and stop the Soviet advance.

A grand plan with next to no chance of success.

 

[John Nowak]

Did Hitler's offensive that led to the Battle of the Bulge have any chance of succeeding? Even if they had taken Belgium, could it have gone much further? Did Germany have enough left to recover to get back strong enough to deal with both fronts?

My understanding is that even if they had somehow accomplished their objectives, they didn't have the troops to hold what they had captured.

I suspect others have the truth of Hitler's motivations. It was either try something and hope for the best, or surrender.

 

[ddt]

I think hitler was fantasizing. Probably kidding himself that if Germany could just hold on, land a few more blows, then he would be like Frederick the great (surviving great odds after enough enemies just give up fighting). Not realistic. .. but then, hitler was wedded to the "triumph of the will ", not to rationality.

Oh yes, he jumped for joy when Roosevelt died, recollecting the death of the czar which saved Der Alte Fritz from a sure defeat, because the new czar was good buddies with Fritz.

My recollection is that they wanted to seize allied fuel supplies to keep themselves going for a couple more months.

That was indeed included in the plan as a needed condition to reach Antwerp.

And drove right by them.

Really?

I can't imagine what the generals thought at the time. Then again, as long as Hitler had guys who were willing to kill anyone at his command, they didn't have much choice.

All generals at the time were simply yes-men. The last who'd have given lip to the Grofaz were eliminated in the aftermath of the 20 July plot.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

They didn't have the troops to guard their flanks or to reach their objective with any force remaining. Reserves were pitiful and the whole plan counted on the Allies doing what Hitler expected them to do.

 

[hgc]

This is the conversation from the 1965 movie The Battle of the Bulge, between Col. Martin Hessler (based on Joachim Peiper) and an aide. It's a chilling moment in the story. Of course the dream of endless warfare was just as unrealistic as winning the war.

Col. Martin Hessler: Our column has made the farthest advance! We have outrun the other Panzers! The eyes of Germany are on us! The Fuhrer himself will decorate me. We have done it Conrad! We have done it!

Cpl. Conrad: Then I was wrong. We have won the war.

Hessler: No.

Conrad: You mean we have lost?

Hessler: No.

Conrad: I don't understand. If we have not won, and we have not lost, than what is happening?

Hessler: The best thing possible is happening - the war will go on.

Conrad: For how long?

Hessler: Indefinitely. On, and on, and on!

Conrad: But it must come to an end.

Hessler: You're a fool Conrad. Those of us who understood knew in 1941 that we could never win.

Conrad: You mean Colonel for three years we have been fighting without any hope of victory?

Hessler: There are many kinds of victory. For the German Army to survive, for us to remain in uniform - that is our victory. Conrad, the world is not going to get rid of us after all.

Conrad: But, when do we go home?

Hessler: This is our home.

Conrad: And my sons? When do I see them? What will become of them?

Hessler: They will become German soldiers, and you will be proud of them.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Seriously crappy movie.

 

[Trebuchet]

Was that the one that started with Henry Fonda flying over the mountains of Belgium then ended with the final tank battle in the Belgian desert (actually Yakima firing range, WA state)?

ETA: for ddt, I'm going to have to do some research. My recollection is that the Germans went right by at least one fuel dump without noticing it.

 

[Cainkane1]

The plan was to fight America and Britain to a stand still and have them sue for an armistice. Then Germany could concentrate all of its resources on the Russian front.

As an aside my father fought in this battle. He had been a MP but surrounded as they were his service were needed more on the battlefield. My father won a bronze star, a purple heart and a good conduct medal after this fight.

 

[BadBoy]

Was that the one that started with Henry Fonda flying over the mountains of Belgium then ended with the final tank battle in the Belgian desert (actually Yakima firing range, WA state)?

ETA: for ddt, I'm going to have to do some research. My recollection is that the Germans went right by at least one fuel dump without noticing it.

Actually I watched it (the film) at the weekend, or the last half of it anyway as it was on TV. Was a bit crap but enjoyed Telly Savalas in it.

The ending was ridiculous though. They fought off 15 German tanks by rolling and exploding fuel drums. I don't believe for a minute an exploding oil drum could have killed a panzer tank. Plus the drums of fuel would have been diesel probably. Gripping Yarn.

 

[Beerina]

I think hitler was fantasizing. Probably kidding himself that if Germany could just hold on, land a few more blows, then he would be like Frederick the great (surviving great odds after enough enemies just give up fighting). Not realistic. .. but then, hitler was wedded to the "triumph of the will ", not to rationality.

I'm sure most of his generals were already thinking, "How fast can we surrender to the US before the Russians get here?" BULGE. "WTF ARE YOU IDIOTS DOING?!?!?"

 

[Craig B]

I'm sure most of his generals were already thinking, "How fast can we surrender to the US before the Russians get here?" BULGE. "WTF ARE YOU IDIOTS DOING?!?!?"

If the German besiegers of Bastogne had suddenly surrendered to the invested US forces, that might have sent a salutary message to Hitler. But they didn't. In all probability the families of any officers surrendering in that way would have suffered the most severe reprisals.

 

[Ian Osborne]

I can't imagine what the generals thought at the time.

Well, Modal said the operation only had about a 30% chance of success.

As others have said, the aim by then wasn't to win the war, but to split the allies, cause the Americans - who were fighting a long way from home - to lose heart and sue for a negotiated peace instead of pursuing the war to unconditional surrender. Of course, what we know now and they couldn't have known then, is that the Manhattan Project was coming to fruition. If the offensive had succeeded in all its aims, the war in the west would've been extended into the summer and the first atomic bombs dropped on Germany instead of Japan.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Seriously crappy movie.

I like that Telly Savalas's tank's turret was knocked out of its turret ring, but four of the crew are uninjured and kept fighting. They must have been very lucky.

 

[pzkpfw]

... I don't believe for a minute an exploding oil drum could have killed a panzer tank. Plus the drums of fuel would have been diesel probably. ...

Fire was pretty useful, see "Molotov cocktail". (What was portrayed in the movie, is a different story).

Also, I think the bulk of vehicle fuel (including tanks) in those days was petrol, not diesel. e.g. the Sherman (Ronson Lighter, or Tommy Cooker) had just two marks with diesel (I think used mostly by the marines, and U.S. allies), most M4's were petrol.

The U.S. didn't mandate Diesel in all new vehicles until 1959.