Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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While I agree we should point out that you can't "prove" a negative.

HJers have made a claim about an assumed HJ found in the NT.

HJers must present the CORROBORATIVE evidence for their CLAIM.

maximara said:
Jesus was a very common name and there were would be messiahs from 6 BCE all the way through 70 CE and even some after that.

Jesus of Nazareth is unknown in existing writings from 6 BCE all the way through to the end of the 1st century.

maximara said:
You simply cannot prove there wasn't in the 1st century some obscure preacher named Jesus who talked about over throwing Roman rule, was killed as a result, and then some elaborate myth woven around him to make him larger and more important then he really was.

HJers cannot even prove a positive.

HJers simply cannot prove that a character called Jesus of Nazareth did exist who was an obscure preacher and cannot prove Jesus of Nazareth talked about overthrowing Roman rule and was killed as a result.

HJers cannot present the source or THE EVIDENCE for their story of Jesus.

Where is the PROOF -the Source--the Evidence--that Jesus was an obscure preacher and talked about over throwing Roman rule and was killed as a result?

I REJECT un-evidenced claims.
 
HJers have made a claim about an assumed HJ found in the NT.

HJers must present the CORROBORATIVE evidence for their CLAIM.



Jesus of Nazareth is unknown in existing writings from 6 BCE all the way through to the end of the 1st century.



HJers cannot even prove a positive.

HJers simply cannot prove that a character called Jesus of Nazareth did exist who was an obscure preacher and cannot prove Jesus of Nazareth talked about overthrowing Roman rule and was killed as a result.

HJers cannot present the source or THE EVIDENCE for their story of Jesus.

Where is the PROOF -the Source--the Evidence--that Jesus was an obscure preacher and talked about over throwing Roman rule and was killed as a result?

I REJECT un-evidenced claims.

If that was true, (which I dispute) what are you going to replace HJ with?

Or are you content to just leave a big hole in the Historical narrative and say "We can never know, or even surmise what might have happened"?

Or are you going to invent a whole load of "fake hoax forgers" to fill in the gaps?
 
dejudge said:
HJers cannot even prove a positive.

HJers simply cannot prove that a character called Jesus of Nazareth did exist who was an obscure preacher and cannot prove Jesus of Nazareth talked about overthrowing Roman rule and was killed as a result.

HJers cannot present the source or THE EVIDENCE for their story of Jesus.

Where is the PROOF -the Source--the Evidence--that Jesus was an obscure preacher and talked about over throwing Roman rule and was killed as a result?

I REJECT un-evidenced claims.

If that was true, (which I dispute) what are you going to replace HJ with?

What evidence for an HJ do you have and what source of antiquity is it found?

You admit Paul was a Liar but still believe Galatians 1.19.

Your HJ argument is based on admitted discredited sources.

Brainache said:
Or are you content to just leave a big hole in the Historical narrative and say "We can never know, or even surmise what might have happened"?

The NT describes the Myth Jesus from conception to Ascension and there are hundreds of existing manuscripts, and Codices.

Your Historical narrative is just a massive hole based on a single admitted Liar.

Brainache said:
Or are you going to invent a whole load of "fake hoax forgers" to fill in the gaps?

Bart Ehrman admitted the NT is filled with historical problems, discrepancies, events that most likely did not happen, forgeries or false attribution of at least 18 books.

You seem to have NO idea that there is an On-Going Quest for an HJ and that it was known for hundreds of years that the Gospels, Acts and the Pauline Corpus were vamped up by LIARS.
 
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What evidence for an HJ do you have and what source of antiquity is it found?

You admit Paul was a Liar but still believe Galatians 1.19.

Your HJ argument is based on admitted discredited sources.



The NT describes the Myth Jesus from conception to Ascension and there are hundreds of existing manuscripts, and Codices.

Your Historical narrative is just a massive hole based on a single admitted Liar.



Bart Ehrman admitted the NT is filled with historical problems, discrepancies, events that most likely did not happen, forgeries or false attribution of at least 18 books.

You seem to have NO idea that there is an On-Going Quest for an HJ and that it was known for hundreds of years that the Gospels, Acts and the Pauline Corpus were vamped up by LIARS.

You once again avoid answering the questions.

Do you think people can't see that?

What do you think happened?

Nothing?

Something?

Let's start at the beginning...
 
In his thread about God and Russia, Doc makes the following statement:<snip>

DOC, there is far greater evidence for the existence of Joseph Smith than for Jeshua ben Joseph. In the Mormon religion, Joseph Smith is a prophet hand-picked by God to deliver his true message. According to mainline Mormonism, Joseph Smith is God's inspired prophet. Therefore if you have strong evidence for Joseph Smith, you have evidence for God in the Mormon religion...
Smith is not God in the Mormon religion, he is a prophet. The historical figure Christ who suffered under the historical figure Ponius Pilate is God in the Christian religion. In the bible Christ says" "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" and "I am in the father {God} and the father is in me".
 
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Smith is not God in the Mormon religion, he is a prophet. The historical figure Christ who suffered under the historical figure Ponius Pilate is God in the Christian religion. In the bible Christ says" "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" and "I am in the father {God} and the father is in me".

So, if Jim Jones says the same thing, that is evidence for God?

What about Elvis? Plenty of people said they saw him after he died too.

You should get together with dejudge and compare logic homework...
 
So, if Jim Jones says the same thing, that is evidence for God?...

Somebody in the other thread said there is no evidence for God. This is not true if you are a Christian. If you are a Christian and believe Christ is God in the flesh then you do have evidence for God if you have historical evidence Christ existed. And there is much evidence that the historical figure Christ existed if we are to believe Bart Ehrman who said the historical Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book.

If you don't want to believe Bart Ehrman then here is some more evidence:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9829265#post9829265
 
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So, if Jim Jones says the same thing, that is evidence for God?

What about Elvis? Plenty of people said they saw him after he died too.

You should get together with dejudge and compare logic homework...

Please, you don't make sense. The existence or non-existence of Elvis requires a separate and independent inquiry and the results cannot be transferred to the supposed Jesus of Nazareth.


You believe Jesus of Nazareth who was born of a Ghost in myth fables of the NT was really real because of the words of an admitted liar in Galatians 1.19.

Galatians 1:1 KJV
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Pauline Jesus was NOT a man--it was a Spirit.

The NT is just a compilation of a pack of myth fables about Gods, Sons of Gods, Ghosts, Spirits, Angel, Demons and Devils.
 
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Of course, as has been pointed out to you many times (by me, and by others), if you had read any of Did Jesus Exist other than "page 173" you would know that the Jesus that Ehrman says "certainly existed" was a fully-human, non-divine, non-magical, non-resurrected, apocalyptic preacher who, demonstrably, could not have been "the messiah"...

When you support your superstition with demonstrable falsehoods, you should expect people to continue to dismiss your assertions.

Ehrman's claims about his supposed historical Jesus are demonstrable false or cannot be shown to be true and WITHOUT corroborative evidence from antiquity.

Ehrman discredits his sources for Jesus of Nazareth and INVENTS his own HJ.

In the NT, it is claimed Jesus of Nazareth was born in Bethlehem.

Ehrman claims Jesus was NOT born in Bethlehem but most likely in Nazareth and cannot present a source.

It is extremely easy to deduce that Ehrman made stuff up about Jesus of Nazareth because he never ever presented a credible source for his Jesus of Nazareth after he had discredited the NT.
 
...it was shown in DOC's last thread invocation of Ehrman that he hadn't actually read any of his books but just obediently parroted a few quote mined bits used by his church.
This is false, I did read a good portion of the Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist". And I personally pulled these quotes from the book while reading it.

Judas’s betrayal (p. 328):

There are solid reasons for thinking that Jesus really was betrayed by one of his own followers, Judas Iscariot.
______

pages 173 - 174.

"Jesus certainly existed. My goal in this book, however is not simply to show the evidence for Jesus's existence that has proved compelling to almost every scholar who has ever thought about it, but also to show why those few authors who have thought otherwise are therefore wrong. To do that I need to move beyond the evidence of the historical Jesus to the claim made about his existence by various mythicists. I will not try to refute every single point made by every single author who has taken that stand. That would require an enormous book... Instead I will consider the most important {mythicist} issues... In the chapter that follows I will then consider several of the best-known mythicist proposals for how Jesus came to be created and argue that they too are thoroughly inadequate to establish the mythicist view."
________

page 73 of his book:

"To dismiss the gospels from the historical record is neither fair or scholarly."
__

Page 164:

"And it is important to remember that Jews were saying that Jesus was the crucified messiah in the early 30s. We can date their claims to at least 32 CE, when Paul began persecuting these Jews. In fact, their claims must have originated even earlier. Paul knew Jesus's right-hand man, Peter, and Jesus's brother James. They are evidence that this belief in the crucified messiah goes all the way back to a short time after Jesus's death."
_____

Ehrman says on page 118 that Paul's Thessalonians is usually dated 49 CE.

DOC speaking: So about 19 years after the crucifixion, Paul is writing letters to an already established church. Roman Emperor Nero was torturing Christians in Rome in 64 CE. Other than a Resurrection what could drive this rapid growth and the willingness to die and be tortured.
 
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If that was true, (which I dispute) what are you going to replace HJ with?

Or are you content to just leave a big hole in the Historical narrative and say "We can never know, or even surmise what might have happened"?
Or are you going to invent a whole load of "fake hoax forgers" to fill in the gaps?

What "big hole in the Historical narrative"?

Historians do the "We can never know, or even surmise what might have happened" with Robin Hood and King Arthur so why not with Jesus?

Despite the several centuries gap between Robin Hood and the first ballad there are far less issues with regard to known history then with Jesus but even there there is debate if Robin Hood was a single person or a composite character formed out of several bandits in the region.
 
Jesus of Nazareth is unknown in existing writings from 6 BCE all the way through to the end of the 1st century.

King Arthur is unknown in existing writings of the late 5th and early 6th centuries and doesn't appear any work until 820 and yet he is though to have a person behind him.

Similarly Robin Hood is unknown in existing writings of the 12th century though you do get variants of the name from 1228 on.

Josephus mentions Jesus bar Damneus becoming high priest and we know that "Christ" was a term used to refer to high priests in the OT.
 
Jesus was a very common name and there were would be messiahs from 6 BCE all the way through 70 CE and even some after that. You simply cannot prove there wasn't in the 1st century some obscure preacher named Jesus who talked about over throwing Roman rule, was killed as a result, and then some elaborate myth woven around him to make him larger and more important then he really was.

I think you are mistaking what the skeptics are saying. There would be NO reasonable thinking skeptic who would say that the lack of evidence for HJ is proof that HJ could never have existed.

Indeed, there may well have been a number of obscure preachers around the turn of the first century.

Indeed, one or more of them may have been named Jesus, after all, it was a common enough name.

The problem is, there is no PROOF. There is not a single contemporaneous document or piece of writing or even a third hand account that names him as a real person. All accounts of the alleged life of HJ come from many years after the events of the time.

IMO, the HJ story suffers from similar difficulties to that of the legend of Robin Hood; as single entities, they are fictional characters made up of a mish-mash of individuals who may have lived anywhere over a large area, but who were not written about until many years afterwards.
 
...

The problem is, there is no PROOF. There is not a single contemporaneous document or piece of writing or even a third hand account that names him as a real person. All accounts of the alleged life of HJ come from many years after the events of the time.
....

We are talking about Ancient History, not Mathematics.

There is no PROOF for most people in Ancient History. Most of the people that we know of from that time are just one or two lines in some text written by people who never met them. Unless it happens to be a King or something like that who had coins minted with their head on them or statues made or something.

The methods used by Historians to determine whether or not there was a man behind the myth are the same for Jesus as they are for anyone else. Look them up.

You want to say that means we don't have "Proof", OK then, we also don't have "Proof" for any of the pre-Socratic Greek Philosophers, or Pythagoras, or...

There are lots of people that we consider to have existed who have even less evidence than Jesus.

And no DOC, evidence for Jesus is not evidence for God, any more than evidence for Muhammad is evidence for the Archangel Gabriel and Allah, or evidence of L Ron Hubbard is evidence for Xenu.
 
We are talking about Ancient History, not Mathematics.

There is no PROOF for most people in Ancient History. Most of the people that we know of from that time are just one or two lines in some text written by people who never met them. Unless it happens to be a King or something like that who had coins minted with their head on them or statues made or something.

The methods used by Historians to determine whether or not there was a man behind the myth are the same for Jesus as they are for anyone else. Look them up.

You want to say that means we don't have "Proof", OK then, we also don't have "Proof" for any of the pre-Socratic Greek Philosophers, or Pythagoras, or...

And we get this BS again. The reality is somewhat different:


Pythagoras (c570 BCE – c495 BCE): more famous for founding Pythagoreanism (a way of life rather than religion) which thanks to it secretive nature we know little about there isn't much on him or the movement that he inspired. In fact the Pythagorean theorem is not formally credited to him until the 4th century. However, Milo of Croton a documented six-time Olympic victor (540 BC-520 BCE) was a Pythagorean and is said to have personally saved Pythagoras life with his great strength

Sun Tzu (Sun Wu) (544–496 BCE?): his very existence is debated in scholarly circles despite reference in the Records of the Grand Historian and Spring and Autumn Annals which used earlier official records that haven't survived.

Confucius (Kong Qiu) (551–479 BCE) the Records of the Grand Historian used archives and imperial records as source material (which themselves have not survived). Its author Sima Qian noted the problems with incomplete, fragmentary, and contradictory sources stating in the 18th volume of the 180-volume work "I have set down only what is certain, and in doubtful cases left a blank." Moreover, Kong Qiu was the governor of a town in Lu and ultimately held the positions of Minister of Public Works and then Minister of Crime for the whole Lu state not exactly minor positions one could create a fictitious person to fill.

Leukippos (shadowy nearly legendary figure of early 5th century BCE): very existence doubted by Epicurus (341 – 270 BCE).

Socrates (c469 – 399 BCE): written about by contemporaries Plato, Xenophon (430 – 354 BCE), and Aristophanes (c446 – 386 BCE).

Hippocrates (c460 – c370 BCE): written about by contemporary Plato.

Plato (428 – 347 BCE): written about by contemporaries Aristotle (384 – 322 BC), Xenophon, and Aristophanes.

Alexander the Great (July 20, 356 – June 11, 323 BCE): official historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, generals Ptolemy, Nearchus, and Aristobulus and helmsman Onesicritus where all contemporaries who wrote about Alexander. While their works were eventually lost, later works that used them as source material were not. Then you have mosaics and coins also contemporaneous with Alexander.

Hannibal (247 – 182 BCE): Written about by Silenus, a paid Greek historian who Hannibal brought with him on his journeys to write an account of what took place, and Sosylus of Lacedaemon who wrote seven volumes on the war itself. Never mind the contemporary Carthaginian coins and engraved bronze tablets.

Julius Caesar (July 100 – 15 March 44 BCE): Not only do we have the writing of contemporaries Cato the Younger and Cicero but Julius Caesar' own writings as well (Commentarii de Bello Gallico aka The Gallic Wars and Commentarii de Bello Civili aka The Civil War). Then you have the contemporary coins, statues and monuments.

Apollonius of Tyana (c15 CE - c100 CE): Often refereed to as the "Pagan Christ", fragments of Apollonius' own writings are part of the Harvard University Press edition of The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (1912) ISBN-13: 978-0674990180 as documented in Carrier's Kook article.

Boadicea (d. 60 CE): Tacitus himself would have been a 5-year old boy when she poisoned herself c. 60 CE making him contemporary to her. Furthermore, his father-in-law Gnaeus Julius Agricola served under Gaius Suetonius Paulinus during the revolt. So Tacitus was not only an actual contemporary, but he had access to Gaius Suetonius Paulinus' records and an actual eyewitness.

Muhammad (570 – c. June 8, 632 CE): Unlike the New Testament, the Quran was written during Muhammad's lifetime and there are some that say it was compiled shortly before his death. Moreover there are non-Muslim references by people who would have been contemporary to Muhammad

Now compare those to Jesus

1) The only known possible contemporary is Paul (Romans, 1st Corinthians, 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1st Thessalonians and Philemon) who not only writes some 20 years after the events but seems more intent on the Jesus in his own head than any Jesus who actually preached in Galilee. In fact, even though in his own account Paul meets "James, brother of the Lord" we get no details of Jesus' life, not even references to the famous sermons or miracles.

2) The Gospels are anonymous documents written sometime between 70 CE to 140 CE and there are no references to any of them until the early 2nd century.


As you can see the whole if we deny Jesus we deny most of ancient history claim is total BS and has no more credibility then Holocaust denial or the theory of ancient astronauts.
 
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King Arthur is unknown in existing writings of the late 5th and early 6th centuries and doesn't appear any work until 820 and yet he is though to have a person behind him.

King Arthur is not confirmed to be a figure of history. The thought that there may have been a person behind him has NO value as evidence.

Who do you think was behind King Arthur and what evidence will you present for what you think?

I reject un-evidenced claims.

The existence or non-existence of King Arthur requires a separate and independent inquiry and the results cannot be transferred to Jesus of Nazareth.

maximara said:
Similarly Robin Hood is unknown in existing writings of the 12th century though you do get variants of the name from 1228 on.

Are you arguing that Robin Hood existed? I am not arguing about the existence or non-existence of Robin Hood.

The existence or non-existence of Robin Hood requires a separate an independent inquiry and the result cannot be transferred to Jesus of Nazareth.

People who claim there was a person behind Robin Hood and King Arthur are OBLIGATED to present the actual evidence.

If no evidence is provided then I will REJECT both claims immediately.
 
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I think you are mistaking what the skeptics are saying. There would be NO reasonable thinking skeptic who would say that the lack of evidence for HJ is proof that HJ could never have existed.

Such an argument cannot be sustained. Once it is admitted that there is LACK of evidence for an HJ then it really a waste of time to continue such a hopless argument

No rational person would say that the lack of evidence for an HJ means there was an HJ when Lack of evidence for an HJ is the very same scenario that would be EXPECTED when there was NO historical Jesus.

Lack of evidence for an HJ will ALWAYS be true when HJ was a Myth.

Effectively, the MJ argument is fully supported by the Lack of evidence for an HJ.

It would be virtually impossible to argue for a Myth Jesus if there was KNOWN actual existing evidence for an HJ.
 
The existence or non-existence of King Arthur requires a separate and independent inquiry and the results cannot be transferred to Jesus of Nazareth.

(...)

The existence or non-existence of Robin Hood requires a separate an independent inquiry and the result cannot be transferred to Jesus of Nazareth.

That is historical particularism, a long discounted (some 80 years ago) theory regarding history (Trigger, Bruce (1989) A History of Archaeological Thought. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press)

You are falling into the same trap as many of the HJers in this thread are--using long abandoned methodologies for your argument.

The Great man theory which is the cornerstone of the entire HJ premise effectively died with the coming of system theory in the 1970s. Historical anthropology, also developed in the 1970s, which would be well suited to figuring out Jesus as a historical person is being applied by exactly one historian--Richard Carrier.

The more one looks as the HJ argument the more one see a bunch of Newtonians trying to continue to use their methods for light and magnetism in an Einstein-Mach world.
 
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