Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Well yes, we are all aware of that. So no one seriously dates gMark as early as the mid 60s.

I remember you talking about the TOR as someone from the second century BCE, and asking why you use such an early date for the DSS, when the carbon dating supports a much later time frame, ie: the 1st Century CE.
I don't recall a response.

Your memory fails you; see post #184 in Jesus Story: A peice of History that bugs me :

Based on the coins found with them the Dead Sea Scrolls are c62 BCE ± 72 2σ. (ie a 94% chance of being between 135 BCE and 73 CE; the 2σ means two standard divination as most ± are only at 1σ which is only 68%) while the carbon 14 dates range goes from a low of 408 BCE (Wadi-Daliyeh deed) to a high of 318 CE (4Q258 Comm. Rule, 1st sample)

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Considering the Wadi-Daliyeh deed via Carbon 14 is dated to c408 BCE your current claim of 1st Century CE for the entirety of the DSS is nonsense. Also Edward M. Cook in his "Solving the Mysteries of the Dead Sea Scrolls" points out Carbon 14 for the materials has a ± 100 range or a 200 year range for the dates--"not a very exact result".

Normally such ranges are 1σ or only a 68% chance of being in the range. If we assume Cook is following the de facto standard for a Carbon 14 ranges you would have to double the range (ie 2σ) to get up to 94% but that would be a staggering 400 year range. If he is using the more conservative 2σ range then you still have fromt he 1st century BC to 2nd cantury CE as your range--"not a very exact result".
 
I know the Cargo Cults only by Marvin Harris’ Cows, Pigs, Wars, And Witches. The Riddles of Culture. As far as I remember Harris cogently showed that Cargo Cults were perfectly coherent.

Perhaps the problem is with "coherent". By "coherent" I don't mean "intelligent", or “true”, or "plausible". A myth is coherent if its structure keeps the normal structure of the myths. The deaths of Heracles, Osiris, Atis, Dionysus, etc. were coherent with the mentality and ideologies of the men who believe in them and invented their lives. All they were heroic or idealized deaths appropriates for divine or semi divine entities. The repugnant death of Jesus screeched in this context and also in those of the deaths of Jewish prophets, kings or Messiah. This is the kind of death that a hellenized or Jewish Christian never would have chosen to his divine Master if he had been able to avoid it.

By the 1970s the John Frum movement had more or less settled down to the white literate US serviceman concept (though you still had groups who see him as a black Melanesian or black GI). However if you look at the work done before then John Frum come less and less cohesive and more and more vague.

Guiart, Jean (1952) "John Frum Movement in Tanna" Oceania Vol 22 No 3 pg 165-177

Worsley, Peter (1957). The Trumpet Shall Sound: A Study of 'Cargo' Cults in Melanesia London: MacGibbon & Kee. pp. 153-9.
 
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Brainache


OK. That is completely compatible with the view I presented, and does nothing to render a compostion date of 65 less plausible, the main issue addressed in my post in answer to yours. Kumbaya.

I don't dispute your opinion on this.

I may have misspoke in that I meant that a date earlier than the mid 60s is unlikely.

I don't believe there was a copy of gMark at Qumran.
 
I still waiting for a coherent theory and detailed explanation for who wrote the Creation story, the Flood with Noah, the story of the Tower of Babel and the Talking Donkey.

Do you know who "They" were, why and how they did it?

Anytime you are ready Brainache.....

All we know is that they wrote mythological fables and people believe them.

Why do you believe a Myth character called the Son of the God of the Jews who walked on water and transfigured was really real without a shred of evidence from the 1st century?

Why, Why?

Anytime you are ready Brianache.....

Dejudge, don't pretend to be foolish. You state that the entire NT was an intentional fictional deceitful forged hoax perpetrated in the late second and early fourth centuries, and that none of this material, or any of the figures named therein, had any prior real existence. Who performed this astounding feat; where and why? You have been asked to supply evidence to sustain this fantastic assertion. Please do so.

Indeed.
 
Your memory fails you; see post #184 in Jesus Story: A peice of History that bugs me :

Based on the coins found with them the Dead Sea Scrolls are c62 BCE ± 72 2σ. (ie a 94% chance of being between 135 BCE and 73 CE; the 2σ means two standard divination as most ± are only at 1σ which is only 68%) while the carbon 14 dates range goes from a low of 408 BCE (Wadi-Daliyeh deed) to a high of 318 CE (4Q258 Comm. Rule, 1st sample)

----

Considering the Wadi-Daliyeh deed via Carbon 14 is dated to c408 BCE your current claim of 1st Century CE for the entirety of the DSS is nonsense. Also Edward M. Cook in his "Solving the Mysteries of the Dead Sea Scrolls" points out Carbon 14 for the materials has a ± 100 range or a 200 year range for the dates--"not a very exact result".

Normally such ranges are 1σ or only a 68% chance of being in the range. If we assume Cook is following the de facto standard for a Carbon 14 ranges you would have to double the range (ie 2σ) to get up to 94% but that would be a staggering 400 year range. If he is using the more conservative 2σ range then you still have fromt he 1st century BC to 2nd cantury CE as your range--"not a very exact result".

Yes, but the period (decades) leading up to the Revolt is smack bang in the middle of the carbon dating range. Why is this controversial?

People proposing a 2nd Century BCE Teacher of Righteousness have to stretch the dating beyond the limits. It just doesn't work.

Does the prospect of the DSS being the writings of the James Gang worry you? It worries the Catholics, that's for sure...
 
Dejudge, don't pretend to be foolish. You state that the entire NT was an intentional fictional deceitful forged hoax perpetrated in the late second and early fourth centuries, and that none of this material, or any of the figures named therein, had any prior real existence. Who performed this astounding feat; where and why? You have been asked to supply evidence to sustain this fantastic assertion. Please do so.

What a big lie.

I specifically stated that I can find these NT characters like Pilate the Governor, John the Baptist, Caiaphas the High Priest, King Herod the Great, Tiberius the Emperor, Festus the procurator, Felix the procurator, Cyrenius, the Tetrarch of the Herods in writings attributed to non-apologetic sources.

I can't find Jesus of Nazareth, the disciples and Paul.

I have already supplied the evidence for 2nd century or later writings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri

You will notice that there are NO NT manuscripts that have been recovered and dated to the 1st century pre 70 CE.

The Temple of the Jewish God Fell c 70 CE and manuscripts of the Jesus story and cult are no earlier than the 2nd century.

Please, just go and examine the evidence.

Stop the Lies.
 
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What a big lie.

I specifically stated that I can find these NT characters like Pilate the Governor, John the Baptist, Caiaphas the High Priest, King Herod the Great, Tiberius the Emperor, Festus the procurator, Felix the procurator, Cyrenius, the Tetrarch of the Herods in writings attributed to non-apologetic sources.

I can't find Jesus of Nazareth, the disciples and Paul.

I have already supplied the evidence for 2nd century or later writings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri

You will notice that there are NO NT manuscripts that have been recovered and dated to the 1st century pre 70 CE.

The Temple of the Jewish God Fell c 70 CE and manuscripts of the Jesus story and cult are no earlier than the 2nd century.

Please, just go and examine the evidence.

Stop the Lies.

Still waiting for evidence of "forgery".

Still waiting for: Who, what, when, where and why...

Will you ever give us the answers to these questions?
 
Still waiting for evidence of "forgery".

Still waiting for: Who, what, when, where and why...

Will you ever give us the answers to these questions?

Just go and read Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" page 181-182

Scholars have already deduced that the Gospels, the Pauline Corpus, the General Epistles are riddled with forgeries or falsely attributed writings.
 
Just go and read Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" page 181-182

Scholars have already deduced that the Gospels, the Pauline Corpus, the General Epistles are riddled with forgeries or falsely attributed writings.
So Bart Ehrman concludes that Jesus and Paul never existed and that the entirety of the NT was forged as intentional fiction in the second and fourth centuries? No, so you disagree with him on this point. Ehrman has provided evidence. Please do likewise.
 
This list of ancient texts is evidence for your forgery theory? Can I get some of what you've been smoking?

Presumably, dejudge is making an inference that the NT is forged, based partly on the 3rd century dating of many of the papyri. In other words, there is a lengthy gap from the events described to the manuscripts. However, this seems to be faulty reasoning, since for example, some of Aristotle's works have their earliest manuscript form in the 9th century. Would we therefore infer that they are forged? I doubt it.

Maybe I am leaving out a step in dejudge's reasoning here; I am curious what it is.
 
Yes. This is a very common problem with ancient texts.

You do not take into account the reasons for my interpretation of the text. You simply rejected it because you don't realize where the comma is placed and you don't analyze the meaning of the words. Only the literal content of a text has meaning for you. It is a too literalist interpretation and not particularly refined neither grammatically nor semantically.

You come back with literalism to the next passage. Of course, Paul says that his entire gospel is product of revelation and the Old Testament. You have surely read or heard someone saying some thing as "I owe all my knowledge to my teacher XX". Obviously, this is an expression of courtesy or tribute that mustn't be understood literally.
Paul says "all my doctrine is due to my Master" in the context of a dispute with some authoritative sources, that is to say the apostles. The distinctive feature of an apostle in the Early Christianity was that he had been elected by the Master and his doctrine was directly extracted from the Master. Paul places himself as an apostle just saying that "I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ". This claim doesn't imply some marginal data about how many were the people who were present in the appearances and in what order.

So that's why, even if Paul had wanted to say literally that all his data were given to him by the Christ in person, we must examine this statement and consider if it is reasonable. And it is not. The revelation alleged by Paul logically includes doctrinal content, the called Gospel. But it is hardly thinkable that Pauline ecstasies were devoted to proclaim how many disciples were together, if they were alive or not, and so on. If Paul was intending to say literally that all what he said came from Christ that is simply false.

If we abandon your rigid literalism there is an obvious interpretation of the passage in stake: Paul pulled out his information from some people of the Jewish-Christian Circle in his Jerusalem journey. Or he is pretending that.

And I hope you don't maintain the assertion that we can't interpret the early Christian writings but take them literally. Have you changed of sides?



Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find a crucified Messiah. In the mythicist opinion this was invented by an individual or collective subject whom we call "Christian" or "Christianity". But the references to nails and trees, the unique example, are so contradictories to the actual text of the Psalm 22 that indicate an obvious intent to justify a repugnant event and not an invention from an unconstrained lecture of the Bible.

I repeat, neither in the Hellenized world nor in the Jewish world nobody would have invented, I insist, invented a crucified Messiah starting from previous religious beliefs. This invent, that is to say, this unbelievable idea was more likely a desperate intent to justify the unjustifiable.




OK, well you actually had no answer in the whole of that above reply, except to admit that Paul’s letters do in fact actually say what I had said, and not at all what you had said!

And in your own defence, you can only offer the idea that you should ignore what the letters actually say, because you think you have the gift of reading something else into it by “reading between it’s lines”!

Well, I am just pointing out to you that what it does actually say must take priority over you/anyone deciding they would like to interpret the words as meaning something opposite to what they actually do say.

As far as the crucifixion story is concerned - we have discussed this in detail dozens of times before. And it’s a flagrant waste of sceptics time trying to get us to re-run all those same arguments endlessly over and over again every couple of weeks.

The point about Paul’s belief in the crucifixion, which iirc he says he believes from scripture, and similarly the same statements about the crucifixion found in g-Mark and g-Mathew, is not that you can find any specific single passage in the OT clearly saying that a messiah named Jesus will be crucified by a Roman Ruler. But rather, if you read books like the one by Randel Helms (Gospel Fictions), or indeed almost any properly written and researched sceptic book such as those by Wells, Ellegard, or possibly also Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle), what those biblical writers seem to have been doing is scouring the OT for any passages that they thought might contain a hidden prophetic clue about the promised messiah …

… they were trying to interpret the OT passages in terms of what they had come to expect in the their messiah beliefs. So in the gospels for example, what you find is not complete sentences lifted verbatim from any one book of the OT, although there are some verbatim examples, but more generally what they did was to take part of one sentence in one book and mix it together with parts of other sentences from other books, joining things together to produce something which they thought could be interpreted as finding the true revelation of the messiah …

… but to muddy those waters even further, it is afaik not at all certain that preachers like Paul could even read, or that they would have available original complete written copies of all the books in the OT. Instead they may well have been relying largely on “word-of-mouth” transcription of what they believed to have been written in various parts of the OT. And the same applies to the gospels - the gospels were written by unknown scribes, but the stories behind those gospels may well have originated from illiterate preachers who obtained their beliefs not from reading 300 year old written copies of the OT in ancient Hebrew (at a time when it seems they were probably all speaking, reading and writing in Greek anyway), but from what other earlier preaching authorities had passed on by word-of-mouth teaching about the prophecies of their old testament.


So, getting back to Paul and his belief that the OT had prophesised the crucifixion of a messiah named Jesus - Paul did not have to read any such specific sentence in any one book of the OT. All that Paul had to do, as his letters actually say he did, was to believe that God had given him the power to "reveal" or understand a hidden meaning in what he thought was contained in various vague or obscure sentences across various books of the OT ….

… and as I have said before - you certainly can find passages in the OT which do talk about someone being “hung on a tree”, being “pierced or fastened hand and foot”, being “rejected and persecuted by his own people”, being "raised on the third day", and even apparently a prophecy attributed to Moses c.1000BC saying that his successor would be named “Jesus"!! (i.e. Yehoshua). So it’s really very obvious, and actually undeniable, that Paul may very easily have decided that such passages were in fact referring in prophecy to the promised messiah.
 
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So, getting back to Paul and his belief that the OT had prophesised the crucifixion of a messiah named Jesus - Paul did not have to read any such specific sentence in any one book of the OT. All that Paul had to do, as his letters actually say he did, was to believe that God had given him the power to "reveal" or understand a hidden meaning in what he thought was contained in various vague or obscure sentences across various books of the OT ….

… and as I have said before - you certainly can find passages in the OT which do talk about someone being “hung on a tree”, being “pierced or fastened hand and foot”, being “rejected and persecuted by his own people”, being "raised on the third day", and even apparently a prophecy attributed to Moses c.1000BC saying that his successor would be named “Jesus"!! (i.e. Yehoshua). So it’s really very obvious, and actually undeniable, that Paul may very easily have decided that such passages were in fact referring in prophecy to the promised messiah.

Like this bloke?:
And as for that which He said, "that he who reads may read it speedily"

Interpreted this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the prophets.

"For there shall be yet another vision concerning the appointed time. It shall tell of the end and shall not lie [Hab 2.3a].

Interpreted, this means that the final age shall be prolonged, and shall exceed all that the prophets have said; for the mysteries of God are astounding.

"If it tarries, wait for it, for it shall surely come and shall not be late" [Hab 2.3b].

Interpreted, this concerns the men of truth who keep the Law, whose hands shall not slacken in the service of truth when the final age is prolonged. For all the ages of God reach their appointed end as he determines for them in the mysteries of His wisdom.

["But the righteous shall live by his faith"] [[Hab 2.4b]].

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of Judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness...
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

It all looks a bit familiar...
 
even apparently a prophecy attributed to Moses c.1000BC saying that his successor would be named “Jesus"!! (i.e. Yehoshua). So it’s really very obvious, and actually undeniable, that Paul may very easily have decided that such passages were in fact referring in prophecy to the promised messiah.
Of course it's "actually undeniable" that something "may" be so! However, very many later Jews were named after that Biblical figure. It was an exceptionally common name. "(The god) YHWH saves". But there is no evidence that, say, Psalms 22 refers to a saviour figure at all, let alone one called Yehoshua.

The child born to the mistranslated virgin in Isaiah (a "prophecy" not exploited by Paul) is called not Yehoshua, but either Immanuel - God is with us - or Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz - quick to the plunder - Isaiah 8:1. These names mean the same thing, of course. When YHWH is with you, you plunder your enemies.
 
Of course it's "actually undeniable" that something "may" be so! However, very many later Jews were named after that Biblical figure. It was an exceptionally common name. "(The god) YHWH saves". But there is no evidence that, say, Psalms 22 refers to a saviour figure at all, let alone one called Yehoshua.
The child born to the mistranslated virgin in Isaiah (a "prophecy" not exploited by Paul) is called not Yehoshua, but either Immanuel - God is with us - or Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz - quick to the plunder - Isaiah 8:1. These names mean the same thing, of course. When YHWH is with you, you plunder your enemies.



Well you must have entirely missed the explanation that I just gave in that same post which you are referring to. The explanation is simple and very obvious. Namely ...

... Paul and the Gospel writers did not need to find specific verbatim sentences saying "this happened to Jesus the messiah". Instead what they believed was that the OT contained Gods hidden secret messages about the true nature and meaning of the promised messiah. Such that all that Paul and the gospel authors had to do, was to search all the OT passages for any parts of sentences which they thought were hiding the coded secret revelation of the messiah ... they simply interpreted all sorts of sentences in various OT books as actually applying the messiah.

In at least one case, iirc, there is an OT passage that quite clearly refers to someone other than any messiah, but where the gospel writers nerveless simply decided it was really a prophetic statement about their believed messiah. So they were entirely happy to overlook the mere fact that sentences were far from clear as to what or who they were originally supposed to have been about ... if it fitted their belief (i.e. Paul's belief and the gospel beliefs) about what they hoped to find as Gods hidden OT secret revealing the messiah, then they simply took those sentences and part sentences and preached that they actually told of the true messiah.

Keep in mind here that in the 1st century, preachers like Paul and those who were the source of the gospels, were not by any means as rational, educated, or scientifically aware, cautious or sceptical as even the most uneducated people on the planet today. They were almost certainly highly suggestible in the extreme, to say the very least. And their entire waking lives (and even their sleep too, it seems!) were spent all day every day consumed with fanatical religious beliefs in the supernatural.

And the belief which concerned them above all else, was their certainty that God would send a saving messiah who was foretold in the prophecies and insights of a divinely inspired Old Testament.

Paul believed, as a matter of God-given absolute certainty, that he had been empowered by God with the abilities of revealing from the OT the true messiah "hidden so long", such that all he had to do was to use all his years of "progressing in religion beyond others of his time" (or whatever his actual quote was), and using all his religious learned beliefs, which all came from the OT via earlier preachers who had told him about the contents & meaning of that OT, to search what he knew, or thought he knew, of the frequently obscure and coded sentences throughout the OT, for what was now sure was being revealed to him by power of God such that he would now understand that true hidden OT revelation of the messiah ...

... and of course, there were no end of sentences all throughout the OT which he could very easily decide were really coded or "hidden" revelations of the true messiah message (whatever they otherwise seemed to refer to) ... Paul and the Gospel writers simply took whatever sentences and words they wished, and decided those were in fact certainly prophecies about the true messiah.
 
@ianS

Given the relatively tenuous nature of the similarity between the "prophecies" and certain of the allegedly prophesied events reported in the Gospels, it seems more plausible in these cases that the evangelists and Paul searched the OT for passages that might explain some of the more intractable material they encountered in their sources, than that they looked at these sources and concocted events to match them.

In some cases, the birth story for example, the dependence on prophecy is indeed clear, because mistakes in the reading of the prophecy turn up as "facts" in Jesus' biography. But in other cases that phenomenon is not the most likely explanation.
 
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