Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

[Belz...]

John Frum shoots the highlighted point down in flames.

I'm not sure that _one_ example is the be-all, end-all of the discussion.

 

[dejudge]

It only seems that way to you because your reading comprehension is so poor.

Seeing as I am an atheist who was once a believer, it is obvious to me that there are atheists who were once believers. In fact, there are many atheists on this forum who used to be religious believers of various sorts. You used to be a Christian too, yes?

Your admittance that you were once a believer exposes your earlier claim as illogical.

You own de-conversion contradicts you.

And you seem not to understand that superstitious beliefs evolve, and that when they are abandoned, it is usually because people have moved on to some other superstition.

 

[dejudge]

Nowhere in any post of mine have I implied something even remotely like that. The fact that you've inferred it is more evidence of your dismal reading comprehension. What I am challenging is your ridiculous assertion that you can bring about the decisive collapse of Christianity by telling people that Jesus was a myth because he was "The Son of A God born Of a Ghost" or the like.

Your own de-conversion destroys your fallacy. Once a person realizes that the NT is really a compilation of fiction, forgeries and non-eyewitness accounts then they would de-convert.

We already have solid evidence that all gods are imaginary constructs. We even have a good model for explaining the origin of god beliefs in terms of evolutionary psychology. Yet these facts haven't brought about the collapse of theism, have they?

What?? You already have solid evidence that all gods are imaginary constructs.

You knew that long ago.

Jesus was an imaginary construct. Jesus was God Creator.

 

[dafydd]

Jesus was an imaginary construct. Jesus was God Creator.

How can an imaginary construct be a god creator?

 

[dejudge]

How can an imaginary construct be a god creator?

Foster Zygote has solid evidence--- "all gods are imaginary constructs"?

Zeus was an imaginary construct.

Apollo was an imaginary construct.

The God of the Jews was an imaginary construct.

Jesus the Logos and God Creator was an imaginary construct.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your admittance that you were once a believer exposes your earlier claim as illogical.

No, dejudge, it doesn't. Because I never made that claim. It is only your extremely poor reasoning ability that led you to erroneously conclude that I was saying that Christians never give up their superstitious beliefs, when in reality, I was saying that the idea that Christianity will collapse if you can prove that Jesus never existed is ludicrous.

 

[dejudge]

No, dejudge, it doesn't. Because I never made that claim. It is only your extremely poor reasoning ability that led you to erroneously conclude that I was saying that Christians never give up their superstitious beliefs, when in reality, I was saying that the idea that Christianity will collapse if you can prove that Jesus never existed is ludicrous.

You invent your own ideas. You are incapable of repeating what I write.

I claimed that "Once a person realizes that the NT is really a compilation of fiction, forgeries and non-eyewitness accounts then they would de-convert".

You must have forgotten the posts are recorded.

... Once a person realizes that the NT is really a compilation of fiction, forgeries and non-eyewitness accounts then they would de-convert.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your own de-conversion destroys your fallacy. Once a person realizes that the NT is really a compilation of fiction, forgeries and non-eyewitness accounts then they would de-convert.

Yes. But for someone to realize something, they have to actually acknowledge it.

Please answer this question: If the overwhelming evidence for evolution by natural selection and the actual age of the Earth hasn't caused the collapse of belief in young-Earth-creationism, if people can so indefatigably blind themselves to what they don't want to know, what makes you think that the vast majority of Christians would even acknowledge proof the Jesus never even existed?

What?? You already have solid evidence that all gods are imaginary constructs.

Yes, that's what I said. Unless... Did you mean to put a question mark at the end of that?

You knew that long ago.

Is this the first you've ever heard of reasons for rejecting, not just Christianity specifically, but theistic beliefs generically, other than claiming that jesus never existed?

Jesus was an imaginary construct. Jesus was God Creator.

Well he can't be both. So which is it?

 

[Foster Zygote]

You invent your own ideas. You are incapable of repeating what I write.

I claimed that "Once a person realizes that the NT is really a compilation of fiction, forgeries and non-eyewitness accounts then they would de-convert".

You must have forgotten the posts are recorded.

Your posts are on the record too, dejudge.

The figure of Faith has collasped and there is no history.

You are right that once someone realizes that Christianity is a mythological construct, that Jesus never rose from the dead, he wasn't God, never offered salvation from death, that there is no eternal reward or punishment... then he or she will simply stop believing. But for that to happen, that person has to have that realization. But religions exist thanks to psychological mechanisms that insulate people from realization; from reality. If you really think that by simply exposing the world to your "arguments" that you will usher in the end of Christian belief then you're just kidding yourself. The religious don't believe for rational reasons. When you were a Christian, was your belief based on rationality?

 

[dejudge]

You are right that once someone realizes that Christianity is a mythological construct, that Jesus never rose from the dead, he wasn't God, never offered salvation from death, that there is no eternal reward or punishment... then he or she will simply stop believing.

Why did it take you so long to admit that I am right?

I told you already that your own de-conversion exposed your logical fallacy.

Now, it is for that very reason why HJ is not Plausible.

People of antiquity would have known Paul was a monstrous liar if it is claimed he asked people of the Roman Empire to worship a Crucified Criminal as a God and claimed the Crucified Criminal abolished the Laws of the Jews for Remission of Sins after he was raised from the dead.

The HJ story doesn't make sense.

The HJ story is absurd.

It is far more likely that the entire NT were late forgeries or false attribution starting in the 2nd century or later.

The Jesus story was BELIEVED to be true---Not known to be fiction.

An historical Jesus [a human Jesus] and authentic Pauline writings do not make sense.

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV

And if Christ be not raised , your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Romans 10:9 KJV

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .

 

[maximara]

I'm not sure that _one_ example is the be-all, end-all of the discussion.

John Frum is the one real world example that shows the more moderate Christ Mythers haven't been in tin foil hat land. Richard Dawkins commented that Christianity may have started in a way similar to the John Frum cargo cult.

You have to admit the general parallels are very similar.

Paul's vague description of Jesus is similar to the vague description of John Frum.

Like Jesus, John Frum has an uncertainly as to when he supposedly lived and preached (1910s, 1930s, 1940s?)

Like Jesus, John Frum has directly been connected to a major contemporary figure (Prince Philp is his brother).

Like Jesus, what little historical background stated by the believers that can be checked for the "genuine" John Frum doesn't match real history.

Based on Paul's comments about other Jesues, other gospels, other spirits we may have had other people taking up the name Jesus and preaching their own variant message...as we see with John Frum.


In fact, on Richard carrier's blog the question of why cargo cults with their possibly imagined founders or tendency to latch on real people who likely never even heard of their cult as their founder have not been used was raised:

"Given there seems to be such a ready made set of examples…why are they not used?"

Richard Carrier: "They are. Robert Price has been making the comparison for years, and I will be as well, extensively citing the scholarship, in my book on the subject (On the Historicity of Jesus)."

John Frum shows that the whole Christ Myth idea is possible so why not reference it when it shows a premise is flat out wrong?

 

[Craig B]

People of antiquity would have known Paul was a monstrous liar if it is claimed he asked people of the Roman Empire to worship a Crucified Criminal as a God and claimed the Crucified Criminal abolished the Laws of the Jews for Remission of Sins after he was raised from the dead.

Therefore Paul never wrote anything in the first century, or preached to anyone, or ever travelled to Jerusalem or elsewhere, in your opinion - if he existed at all.

The entire corpus of the NT was invented in the late second and early fourth centuries, you believe, by forgers with the intent of writing complete fiction for the purpose of deceiving people.

 

[pakeha]

I recently read an interesting idea about Samaria and a person known as "the Taheb" (or something). Supposedly the "Messiah Ben Joseph", whose followers were killed by Pilate, many by crucifixion. This being one of the incidents which lead to Pilate being recalled to Rome for being too brutal (!).

If there is a conflation of characters in the Jesus traditions, this guy has to be one candidate IMO.

You know I love white rabbits almost as much as you do, Brainache.
Any sources to throw at me?

...I've got to go about my daily rounds now, but I found this page that goes with the Frontline documentary Apocalypse!. My bookmarks are a bit disorganized right now.

Thanks for the link and thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one whose bookmarks have taken on a life of their own.

...Stripped of all the supernatural stuff everything else in the Gospel account is a nonsensical mess; the geography is a train wreck; the betrayal is non historical garbage and so are both the trials, the handling of the body after the crucifixion is similarly non historical as is the Romans response to reports of Jesus being up and around (Carrier had a field day with that one in one of his lectures)

That's a problem I have with the stripped-down-to-bare-essentials HJ. Once you strip away the jive, what's left is ahistorical, to put it kindly.
Even those core teachings of Stone's. I'd love to know their point of origin. The problem with the core teachings is that depending on how you choose them, it seems to me you come up a different Jesus every time.

maximara, do you have a link for that particular lecture?

 

[Belz...]

Your own de-conversion destroys your fallacy.

You know what's a fallacy ? The first line of each of your posts.

Seriously, you have no idea what constitutes a logical argument.

 

[Belz...]

John Frum is the one real world example that shows the more moderate Christ Mythers haven't been in tin foil hat land.

I don't think anyone said that, but I'm still waiting for you to show that it makes MJ _more_ likely than HJ.

 

[Craig B]

You know I love white rabbits almost as much as you do, Brain-ache
Any sources to throw at me?

The story of Pilate's dismissal is in Josephus, Ant 18, 4, 1.

BUT the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there.

Pilate sent a cavalry unit to intercept them, and violence resulted. The ringleaders were captured and executed, but Josephus doesn't name them, or specify that they were crucified. Pilate was recalled to Rome following this incident, and disappears from recorded history.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Why did it take you so long to admit that I am right?

I told you already that your own de-conversion exposed your logical fallacy.

Dejudge, I'm going to say this as simply as a can because, obviously, I have to: I never said that people never give up their religion. Your pretense that I did is just more of you hearing only what you want to hear.

Now, it is for that very reason why HJ is not Plausible.

People of antiquity would have known Paul was a monstrous liar if it is claimed he asked people of the Roman Empire to worship a Crucified Criminal as a God and claimed the Crucified Criminal abolished the Laws of the Jews for Remission of Sins after he was raised from the dead.

The HJ story doesn't make sense.

The HJ story is absurd.

It is far more likely that the entire NT were late forgeries or false attribution starting in the 2nd century or later.

The Jesus story was BELIEVED to be true---Not known to be fiction.

An historical Jesus [a human Jesus] and authentic Pauline writings do not make sense.

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV

Romans 10:9 KJV

You really didn't think that through at all, did you?

Why is it that people only 40 - 50 years after Jesus died would have seen the stories as absurd, yet people after about, let's say 100 years later (You've never actually given any timeline for you invention of Jesus) would have no trouble swallowing these absurd tales? Why would people in the 1st Century would know Paul to me a "monstrous liar", yet people in the 2nd Century would start swallowing the same story as true when it was told by someone else? By the way, one quibble: Paul never calls Jesus God.


Remember also that Mormonism wasn't based on stories about someone who'd supposedly lived a century earlier. Yet people flocked to follow Joseph Smith in droves. There were some who saw that he was a liar, and there were those who scoffed at Christianity in the 1st Century as well. But the idea that people wouldn't have converted to a religion for the "reasons" that you list above is ludicrous.

 

[pakeha]

The story of Pilate's dismissal is in Josephus, Ant 18, 4, 1. Pilate sent a cavalry unit to intercept them, and violence resulted. The ringleaders were captured and executed, but Josephus doesn't name them, or specify that they were crucified. Pilate was recalled to Rome following this incident, and disappears from recorded history.

Thanks, Craig B.

 

[dafydd]

Foster Zygote has solid evidence--- "all gods are imaginary constructs"?

Zeus was an imaginary construct.

Apollo was an imaginary construct.

The God of the Jews was an imaginary construct.

Jesus the Logos and God Creator was an imaginary construct.

And? I still have no idea what your basic point is. Enlighten me please.

 

[tsig]

You know I love white rabbits almost as much as you do, Brainache.
Any sources to throw at me?




Thanks for the link and thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one whose bookmarks have taken on a life of their own.




That's a problem I have with the stripped-down-to-bare-essentials HJ. Once you strip away the jive, what's left is ahistorical, to put it kindly.
Even those core teachings of Stone's. I'd love to know their point of origin. The problem with the core teachings is that depending on how you choose them, it seems to me you come up a different Jesus every time.

maximara, do you have a link for that particular lecture?

Every single detail in the gospel about the crucifixion is non historical but we are assured that the crucifixion itself is historical.