Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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In other words, how would you handle historical research in these cases ?
Don't draw a conclusion in either direction and instead accept these texts, either fiction or beautified accounts, as represtative theological poetry and appreciate the cultural art therein.



Eight Bits, I'll respond tomorrow in full, but I am sorry if I offended you somehow. I'm not sure what I did, but I was not intending to annoy or offend you.
 
Don't draw a conclusion in either direction and instead accept these texts, either fiction or beautified accounts, as represtative theological poetry and appreciate the cultural art therein.

Well I'll let Maximara answer for himself but, ok, once you've done that, what can you say about history, if this is the level of evidence you have for so many characters ? Do you blank most of the timeline because we're far from sure these things happened the way we wrote them down as happening ? I mean, what's the standard in history for saying "ok, let's write it down this way." ?
 
Your claim cannot be shown to be true. You are not an Historian. Richard Carrier is.

So is this guy:

Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus by Michael Grant 2004
And this one:

Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
And this one:

Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould

And this guy too:

James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"

And this guy too:

The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".

And I could go on, but you get my point I am sure. Practically all historians accept the existence of Jesus, whether they accept his divinity or not.
 
Well I'll let Maximara answer for himself but, ok, once you've done that, what can you say about history, if this is the level of evidence you have for so many characters ? Do you blank most of the timeline because we're far from sure these things happened the way we wrote them down as happening ? I mean, what's the standard in history for saying "ok, let's write it down this way." ?
I believe this post is a good way to highlight the issue that is starting to get annoying -- why would anyone ever think that because BT is used, history is being "blanked" or tossed aside as several posters have now said?

Perhaps it is because I do not yet fully understand BT and its applications to history and these other posters do.

ETA: I am not saying that you Belz... are annoying. I am using your statement as a launch point.
 
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So is this guy:


And this one:


And this one:



And this guy too:



And this guy too:



And I could go on, but you get my point I am sure. Practically all historians accept the existence of Jesus, whether they accept his divinity or not.

I, for one, appreciate you finally posting actual historians' names. However, all of the quotes you provided just make the claim but there has been no proof or evidence for "the HJ" coming from these people ( at least in this thread which has already been asked for).
 
Don't draw a conclusion in either direction and instead accept these texts, either fiction or beautified accounts, as represtative theological poetry and appreciate the cultural art therein.
What other documents would you need then to demonstrate an HJ or MJ?
 
I would like to summarize the use Bart Ehrman made of a Bayesian argument, or tried to.

The occasion was a debate with William Lane Craig on the Resurrection's historicity:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-t...or-the-resurrection-of-jesus-the-craig-ehrman

Ehrman's view was that a miraculous cause is always the least likely explanation of an observed event. In fact, Ehrman claims that he can, in general, construct an explanation of an event, thoroughly ad hoc, but because it is composed entirely of natural elements, it is more likely than a miraculous explanation, regardless of how far-fetched the construction is.

Note that this is a qualitative claim about probabilities. Nobody's putting a number on anything. Craig's rejoinder is that Ehrman has confused prior and posterior probability: the miraculous may be the least likely before a "miracle" is observed, but it can become the most likely afterwards. Ehrman doesn't effectively rebut.

Can Bayes' Theorem, applied with the Bayesian interpretation of it, help us to understand the controversy, and perhaps to resolve it?

Let us take Ehrman to have conceded that the observables of the resurrection have been observed (an empty tomb mostly). Let us also take Craig to have conceded that Ehrman's construction (a tomb robbery gone bad, basically) is more likely than a miraculous explanation a priori. Finally, let us take both to have conceded that the other's preferred explanation, if it were in fact true, would equally well explain the observed. (Craig and Ehrman differ on some details of that, but we are examining Craig's claim that Ehrman erred in his algebra, so we set those aside here and for the time being.)

Note that we have once again made only qualitative statements. No numbers appear here.

Among its many forms, Bayes' Theorem can be written:

for uncertain hypothesis h and observed event e

p( h | e ) = p( h ) * p( e | h ) / p( e )

In the Bayesian interpretation:

p( h | e ) is a measure of confidence in the truth of h given that e has been observed

p( h ) is the a priori confidence in the truth of the hypothesis h

p( e | h ) is a measure of how well h would explain e if h were in fact true

p( e ) is the a priori plausibility of seeing what was seen

Let us compare two hypotheses: r (Craig's miraculous Resurrection) and c (Ehrman's ad hoc construction)

Note that p( e ) doesn't depend on h, and so it is the same for c as for r.

From what each party conceded, e has been observed, and

p( c ) > p( r ) ... Ehrman's construction is more plausible a priori than Resurrection

p( e | r ) = p( e | c ) ... Either would explain equally well if it happned to be true

So:

let us define k = p( e | r ) / p( e ) = p( e | c ) / p( e ) >> 0 (it's probably a huge number, but all we need is that it is a positive number)

then, substituting into the Bayes' Theorem equations,

p( r | e ) = p( r ) * k

p( c | e ) = p( c ) * k

so, if p( c ) > p( r ), then p( c ) * k > p( r ) * k, or simply p( c | e ) > p( r | e )

Which is what Ehrman claimed, that the ad hoc explanation of something we have observed is more credible than the miraculous explanation of it.

QED.

Now, this makes me a history-denying Bayesian activist, how?
 
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Which is what Ehrman claimed, that the ad hoc explanation of something we have observed is more credible than the miraculous explanation of it.

QED.

Now, this makes me a history-denying Bayesian activist, how?

Ehrman gives us a blinding glimpse of the obvious. The probability of a miraculous resurrection is zero. No one in this thread, as far as I am aware, is arguing otherwise. But that brings me to the larger flaw in using Bayes' Theorem for historical analysis; how do you avoid subjectivity in assigning probabilities? How do you assign "plausibility" numbers to something like Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, which obviously "could have" happened, but "probably" didn't?
 
Indeed. It's the sum total of the evidence they have, however. The question is, what's the conclusion we can derive, in terms of history, from that evidence ? Can we conclude that Jesus was a myth ? Or possible a man ? And, if so, do what degree does that man correspond to the story ? Or do we simply not know, and leave it at that ? And if we take that last one, what does it say about similar historical figures ?

In other words, how would you handle historical research in these cases ?

Again we hit meaning of the term "myth". As Remsburg said back 1909 "While all Freethinkers are agreed that the Christ of the New Testament is a myth they are not, as we have seen, and perhaps never will be, fully agreed as to the nature of this myth. Some believe that he is a historical myth; others that he is a pure myth. Some believe that Jesus, a real person, was the germ of this Christ whom subsequent generations gradually evolved; others contend that the man Jesus, as well as the Christ, is wholly a creation of the human imagination."

The Jesus of the Bible is clearly mythical and even in the realm of historical myth you have the range of the narrative being essentially true to the narrative being essentially false.

Take, for example, the historical myth of Christopher Columbus sailed West to prove the Earth was round. That narrative is both essentially true and essentially false. Christopher Columbus did indeed sail West but it was for the purposes of making money not as a explorer crusading against ignorance as was portrayed for nearly a century.

George Armstrong Custer is another example ranging from the brave soldier manipulated by politicians and a corporation to ride with his men to certain death at the hands of the Native Americans he is trying to help (They Died with Their Boots On (1941)) to the narcissistic egotistical maniac who leads his men to certain doom because he is essentially a military idiot (Little Big Man (1970)) Both are historical myths---while the general details of the event (Custer's death at Little Big Horn) are true the reasons behind the event are fictional.

Terry Jones in the "King" episode of Medieval Lives shows that the views of Richard I, II, and III we have are essentially historical myth versions of the actual rulers

The historical mythical versions have Richard I as a great king who loved England but was called away by the Church, Richard II as a vain, narcissistic, cruel ruler, and Richard III as a mishapen power mad maniac who was the embodiment of evil.

The reality is far different:

As outlined in Terry Jones Medieval Lives Richard I was in reality a war mongering maniac who saw England as a giant piggybank and could have cared less for its people, Richard II was too forgiving for his own good and it likely got him killed, and Richard III created a concept that in an altered form is considered a right by every citizen of the United States--Trial by a Jury of your Peers.

Going back to historical...how historical are we talking here? Just enough to show that there likely was some preacher-philosopher named Jesus in Galilee between c100 BCE - 70 CE who was executed by the local authorities for causing problems? More than that? How much more?
 
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jhunter1163

The probability of a miraculous resurrection is zero. No one in this thread, as far as I am aware, is arguing otherwise.
I wouldn't know about the other people in this thread. In the somewhat broader sample of non-believers whom I've ever talked with, a prevalent view is that if sufficient evidence of God (miracles, ..., dead raising, ...) were produced, then they would believe. In fact, I've met very few people who profess certainty that there is no supernatuiral being. Lots of confidence, sure, but certainty about contingenices is rare and exceptional, in my experience.

Be that as it may, there is nothing in what I posted that requires p( r ) > 0. It does takes some dancing to define p( e | h ) when p( h ) = 0, to avoid division by zero, but nothing terribly strenuous. Ehrman's argument would still go through.

how do you avoid subjectivity in assigning probabilities?
You don't. Why would you expect to, or even want to? An accurate representation represents what's actually there. Confidence and estimate of bearing are inherently subjective.

At best, you will have some situations where there is a high degree of interpersonal agreement, or even something "model based." Woo hoo. Rarely about anything controversial, though. That's what "controversy" means.

How do you assign "plausibility" numbers to something like Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, which obviously "could have" happened, but "probably" didn't?
Actually, as my post illustrates, you can solve some problems with no numbers at all, just the relationships between probabilities. That would be typical of the sort of thing Polya recommended.

Just off hand, can you suggest a problem involving Jesus riding into Jerusalem where you would need scalar numbers? It's not as if I could make book on the question, and so I would need actual prices. Just from what you said, I already have an interval estimate:

p( J | d ) > 0 (Jesus riding, etc. could have happened, given your description)

p( ~ J | d ) > p( J | d ) (What you seem to mean by 'probably' didn't, given your description )

So, p( J | d ) lies in the open interval between 0 and 1/2. Why do I need more precision than that? If I did need more precision, then why wouldn't I also have more information to go on than just d, the casual description you just gave?
 
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Ehrman gives us a blinding glimpse of the obvious. The probability of a miraculous resurrection is zero. No one in this thread, as far as I am aware, is arguing otherwise. But that brings me to the larger flaw in using Bayes' Theorem for historical analysis; how do you avoid subjectivity in assigning probabilities? How do you assign "plausibility" numbers to something like Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, which obviously "could have" happened, but "probably" didn't?

It is clear that you have no idea that there are two opposing arguments:

1. Jesus was most likely a figure of mythology.

2. Jesus was most likely a figure of history.

For you to dismiss the documented mythology of Jesus is beyond absurd.

You seem clueless that it can be shown that virtually everything written about Jesus has virtually ZERO probability or is fictional.

Please read Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" page 202-203. Ehrman argued that the triumphal entry as described in the Gospels was probably made up WITHOUT even using Bayes Theorem.

Bayes Theorem would only numerically quantify the probability.

The probability of the Triumphal entry as described in the NT is next to ZERO if Jesus was the Son of God who walked on the sea, and transfigured before the asses were ridden.

Jesus was King when he rode Asses!! Jesus was the greatest ASS rider in the history of mankind!!!

HJ must have ridden people's asses because the story is embarrassing.

HJ was king when he rode asses.

Bart Ehrman in a contradictory fashion later claimed the heart of the story is historical. See "Did Jesus Exist?" page 203.
 
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Then I'm sorry but you haven't been paying much attention.

OK, then post the links, claiming the evidence has been posted but refusing to link to it is a well known tactic.
 
This seems an entirely reasonable position based on what we have been able to ascertain about the HJ. Too bad the MJ fundies won't accept it.

I don't think we have many MJ fundies in this thread so I'm going to ask you to stop using such a loaded term out of civility.
 
Indeed. It's the sum total of the evidence they have, however. The question is, what's the conclusion we can derive, in terms of history, from that evidence ? Can we conclude that Jesus was a myth ? Or possible a man ? And, if so, do what degree does that man correspond to the story ? Or do we simply not know, and leave it at that ? And if we take that last one, what does it say about similar historical figures ?

In other words, how would you handle historical research in these cases ?

Why do you feel that we have to come to a conclusion?

The only "conclusion" I see is "Insufficient data"


For some reason anyone who concludes that gets stood up and shot as a MJer.
 
Why do you feel that we have to come to a conclusion?

The only "conclusion" I see is "Insufficient data"


For some reason anyone who concludes that gets stood up and shot as a MJer.

The reason for that is because the data is sufficient for the vast majority of scholars of antiquity to conclude that the HJ existed. Arguing otherwise is like arguing that Shakespeare didn't write his plays; an interesting speculation, but one that doesn't really stand up to serious scrutiny.
 
I don't think we have many MJ fundies in this thread so I'm going to ask you to stop using such a loaded term out of civility.

I use the term because those who argue against the existence of the HJ are far less willing to consider contrary evidence than the other side. Their position is quite unskeptical; one could almost say it is dogmatic.
 
The reason for that is because the data is sufficient for the vast majority of scholars of antiquity to conclude that the HJ existed.

Is it or are they doing the same thing anthropologists were doing before Miner came out with his 1956 "Body Ritual among the Nacirema" which showed that the anthropologists were letting their preconception drive everything (even their data collection) to a predestined conclusion.

System theory which gave a mechanism for the Great Moment conceived in the Christ Myths of old viable is only 50 years old. Out of that methodology came Plagues and Peoples by Willian MacNeill which was the first book to look as the complex interaction between population and diease.

Remember in many countries challenging the Bible on any level could get you fined, thrown in jail, or executed as heretic. Even with the coming of the Enlightenment Period (c1650-c1800) it wasn't until the tail end of that that people even suggested the Gospel accounts may not be what they appeared to be and even after that it wouldn't be until 1835 that the idea that the Gospel Jesus may be a historical myth was even entertained.

Even today you can be fired from a United States college for teaching that Adam and Eve is a myth per the example of Steven C. Bitterman of Southwestern Community College in 2007 or forced to retire per the example of John Schneider of Calvin College in 2011.

If the religious powers that be have the power to have a know philosophical myth presented as historical fact if a professor wants to keep his job who you think wants to risk anything by touching the Jesus is a myth third rail?
 
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I use the term because those who argue against the existence of the HJ are far less willing to consider contrary evidence than the other side. Their position is quite unskeptical; one could almost say it is dogmatic.
I know you're not speaking about me, but I have changed my mind on the HJ issue several times regarding evidence for or against [an | the] HJ. I use these HJ threads to try and sharpen my reasoning skills and not for needing an actual corporeal Jesus to have existed. I have had a tendency to vacillate between 'we'll never know' and 'there needn't have been a Jesus to found a church'. Currently I think that it is very reasonable and likely that there was no corporeal Jesus. This is based on many points that converge; there is not one line of reasoning but many. I am open to changing my mind. I'm very uncertain I can say the same for the die-hard HJers.
 
I use the term because those who argue against the existence of the HJ are far less willing to consider contrary evidence than the other side. Their position is quite unskeptical; one could almost say it is dogmatic.


Saying "I don't know" is dogmatic?

If you've got the evidence you argue the evidence if you don't you deride the other posters.

ETA: When a request for civility is met with accusations of dogmatism I think the weakness of your position is evident.
 
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I know you're not speaking about me, but I have changed my mind on the HJ issue several times regarding evidence for or against [an | the] HJ. I use these HJ threads to try and sharpen my reasoning skills and not for needing an actual corporeal Jesus to have existed. I have had a tendency to vacillate between 'we'll never know' and 'there needn't have been a Jesus to found a church'. Currently I think that it is very reasonable and likely that there was no corporeal Jesus. This is based on many points that converge; there is not one line of reasoning but many. I am open to changing my mind. I'm very uncertain I can say the same for the die-hard HJers.

Yes, but the "die-hard HJers" include people who are professional Historians who have studied this stuff all their lives. The "MJers" don't have such expert support.

Don't you think, as a layman, that maybe these Professionals deserve a little respect?

Do you really think they are less capable of objectivity than you, or anyone else?

There seems to be an assumption that if you study Jesus, you believe in Jesus. This is wrong and I wish people would stop insinuating that supporting an HJ means worshipping Christ.
 
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