Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

[Foster Zygote]

Is it too complicated for you to understand that Adam and Eve in Genesis were not real people?

Is it too complicated for you to understand that Satan the Devil who tempted Jesus at the Jewish Temple was not a real person?

It is too complicated for you to understand that the angel Gabriel was not a real person even though he was the one who told Mary about her conception by the Ghost ?

Is it too complicated for you to understand that Romulus the founder of Rome was not a real person even though it is claimed he had a human mother and a human brother?

Is it too complicated for you to understand that Jesus of Nazareth has NO actual history?

It is an extremely simple matter.

Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the mythology of the Jews, Greeks and Romans.

Jesus was probably the greatest myth story in the history of mankind--even atheists believe he was real when it is documented publicly that he WALKED on the SEA and transfigured like a magnificent fairy.


Long live Myth Jesus!!

Myth Jesus can never die.

The HJ argument cannot resurrect.

You know how you can separate the real Peter Popoff from the mythical Peter Popoff that his faithful followers believe in? Why can't you do that with an historical Jesus and what his followers believed about him?

We know that the Bible contains the mythical stories about Jesus that various groups made up about him. What we are trying to do is look past the Bible to see if we can discern clues as to the identity of any real man (or men) who might have existed prior to the Bible texts. So perpetually regurgitating the magical stories as an objection to the idea that there might have been a real Jesus is going nowhere, and has been going nowhere for as long as you've been here.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your statement is hopelessly contradictory. You reject the NT as history yet accuse me of denigrating the Bible.

Something is radically wrong.

You reject the Pauline claims about the resurrection yet accuse me of denigrating the Bible.

You have failed to understand that people who argue that Jesus was a human being MUST denigrate the Bible.

In the Bible Jesus was God Creator.

You have denigrated the NT because you REJECT the claims about Jesus as God Creator and those made by Paul about the resurrection.

So your back to your false dichotomy of either accepting the Bible in toto, like a Christian fundamentalist, or rejecting it in toto, like some other kind of fundamentalist.

 

[Foster Zygote]

By the way, dejudge, how old are the earliest available manuscripts of Josephus' writings?

How many times will I have to repeat this question?

 

[dejudge]

You really don't get it.

I was addressing your argument that the supernatural claims about Jesus are evidence that he can only be mythical. That argument is shown to be fallacious by the fact that there are people who's historicity you do not dispute, about whom supernatural stories were made up.

No, No, No!! I never said such a thing!! Why can't you repeat what I have posted?

I said :

1. Jesus of Nazareth was described as the Son of a Ghost, God Creator, who walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

2. Jesus of Nazareth has no history outside the Bible and Apologetics.

3. Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the criteria for Mythology---all myth and no actual history.

4. I will consider that Jesus is a figure of mythology until new evidence is found.


My position is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Foster Zygote]

No, No, No!! I never said such a thing!! Why can't you repeat what I have posted?

Yes you did. You repeat it below in your first point.

1. Jesus of Nazareth was described as the Son of a Ghost, God Creator, who walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

This is not evidence that no real person could have been the basis for these magical claims. Magical claims have been made about innumerable real people.

2. Jesus of Nazareth has no history outside the Bible and Apologetics.

Untrue. Josephus mentions the execution of James the brother of Jesus. And even so, as has already been pointed out to you, the lack of contemporary historical records is to be expected for a rural 1st Century preacher who was hardly noticed in his own time.

3. Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the criteria for Mythology---all myth and no actual history.

Which criteria are those?

4. I will consider that Jesus is a figure of mythology until new evidence is found.

Right, you will assume that you know what can't be known. Meanwhile, those of us educated in the critical habit of thought will remain open to multiple possibilities.

My position is perfectly reasonable.

No, your position is based upon ignorance and numerous logical fallacies.

 

[dejudge]

The reason we are certain of Kim Jong-il's historicity is because he was the conspicuously bizarre leader of an entire nation and he just died two years ago, in an age of instantaneous global mass communication. An historical Jesus would have been a nobody outside his local region, living in an age of mass illiteracy in which news could travel no faster than people could walk. If you really think that Kim Jong-il is an example of the sort of contemporaneous life documentation that we should expect to have for a poor, itinerant preacher from a backwater corner of the Empire, then JaysonR is completely correct regarding your gross ignorance of basic anthropology.

You are now exposing your own problems with logic and facts.

You have accepted that Kim Jong il was the conspicuously bizarre leader of an entire nation based on what was communicated to you.

Why do you now misrepresent what Christian writers communicated to us about their Jesus?

Christians of antiquity did not communicate to us that Jesus of Nazareth was a nobody--a poor, itinerant preacher from a backwater corner of the Empire .

They communicated to us for hundreds of years [since the 2nd century] that Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God, born of a Ghost, the Logos --God Creator, who walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

They communicated to us that THOUSANDS of people in Galilee followed Jesus to be healed and get free food.

You repeat what was communicated to us about Kim Jong il but invent your own story of your Jesus.

Why, why, why???

"In an age of instantaneous global mass communication" it is completely unacceptable for you to misrepresent what Christian writers communicated to us.

Jesus was not a nobody he was the Son of God and God Creator.

Why can't you communicate the history of Jesus as it was stated by Christian writers?

Communicate this to the world.


Matthew 1:18 KJV

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together , she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 14:25 KJV

And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

Mark 9:2 KJV

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

John 1:1 KJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV

And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Mark 6:44 KJV

And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.

Luke 5:15 KJV

But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear , and to be healed by him of their infirmities.

 

[Foster Zygote]

You are now exposing your own problems with logic and facts.

You have accepted that Kim Jong il was the conspicuously bizarre leader of an entire nation based on what was communicated to you.

Why do you now misrepresent what Christian writers communicated to us about their Jesus?

I don't think you realize it, but you're saying that if I accept the existence of Kim Jong-il, then I should accept what the DPRK propaganda mill said about him.

 

[dejudge]

This is not evidence that no real person could have been the basis for these magical claims. Magical claims have been made about innumerable real people.

Magical claims have been made about mythological characters.

Real people have history.

Myths have none.

Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the criteria for myth--all myth and no history.

Josephus mentions the execution of James the brother of Jesus. And even so, as has already been pointed out to you, the lack of contemporary historical records is to be expected for a rural 1st Century preacher who was hardly noticed in his own time.

Josephus also mentioned that the Emperor Gaius was called the brother of Jupiter.

Plus, you should know that Remus was the human brother of Romulus, a myth.

Now, please tell me what would be the relationship of Jesus and James when Jesus was conceived by a Ghost of God and Mary and when James was conceived by a man and Mary?

Jesus the son of God and James the son of a man would still be brothers if they had the same mother.

Galatians 4:4 KJV

But when the fulness of the time was come , God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law..

The nature of James is completely irrelevant to Jesus the Son of God and a woman.

 

[Foster Zygote]

By the way, dejudge, how old are the earliest available manuscripts of Josephus' writings?

3X

 

[dejudge]

By the way, dejudge, how old are the earliest available manuscripts of Josephus' writings?

How many times will I have to repeat this question?

Why are you asking me questions about Josephus when you use it to argue for your HJ?

You know that you have no available 1st century writings which mentioned Jesus of Nazareth.

Josephus mentions the execution of James the brother of Jesus......

Tell me, how old are the earliest available manuscripts of Josephus' writings?

4X

 

[Foster Zygote]

Magical claims have been made about mythological characters.

Real people have history.

Myths have none.

So which is Kim Jong-il, real or myth? What about Joseph Smith?

Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the criteria for myth--all myth and no history.

Which criteria are those?

Josephus also mentioned that the Emperor Gaius was called the brother of Jupiter.

Plus, you should know that Remus was the human brother of Romulus, a myth.

Now, please tell me what would be the relationship of Jesus and James when Jesus was conceived by a Ghost of God and Mary and when James was conceived by a man and Mary?

Jesus the son of God and James the son of a man would still be brothers if they had the same mother.

Galatians 4:4 KJV

The nature of James is completely irrelevant to Jesus the Son of God and a woman.

Again, you're going off on a wide tangent. Your claim was that there was no extra-biblical reference to Jesus. But Josephus did mention him obliquely in reference to his brother. This reference, if authentic, suggests that the Jesus movement was gaining enough public recognition by 62 CE that Josephus would have remembered the execution of one of its leaders, who was called James the brother of Jesus.

There is also the interesting reference to Josephus by Origen, who seems to have reference to a lost text stating the James died in the siege of Jerusalem.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Why are you asking me questions about Josephus when you use it to argue for your HJ?

You know that you have no available 1st century writings which mentioned Jesus of Nazareth.



Tell me, how old are the earliest available manuscripts of Josephus' writings?

4X

You claimed that the lack of available Pauline texts dating to the 1st Century was evidence that they were not written in the 1st Century. Yet we have no texts of Josephus' work dating from earlier that about the 13th Century. Applying your logic, we should conclude that Josephus is a myth fabricated in the middle ages.

Do you have any idea just how rare, and delicate, written materials were in the 1st Century Roman Empire?

 

[dejudge]

You claimed that the lack of available Pauline texts dating to the 1st Century was evidence that they were not written in the 1st Century. Yet we have no texts of Josephus' work dating from earlier that about the 13th Century. Applying your logic, we should conclude that Josephus is a myth fabricated in the middle ages.

You claimed Josephus wrote about James the brother of Jesus when you knew in advance of posting that you had no 1st century writing about Jesus of Nazareth.

You reject the writings of Josephus but simultaneously use it to prove James had a brother called the Christ.

Do you have any idea just how rare, and delicate, written materials were in the 1st Century Roman Empire?

What?? You are not really familiar with the abundance of writings in antiquity.


Don't you know that there were libraries with hundreds of papyri rolls in the 1st century?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum_papyri

The Herculaneum papyri are more than 1,800 papyri found in Herculaneum in the 18th century, carbonised by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in AD 79. After various methods of manipulation, a method was found to unroll and to read them.

Don't you know about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Writing was probably the ONLY form of physically recording events in antiquity.

 

[dejudge]

You claimed that the lack of available Pauline texts dating to the 1st Century was evidence that they were not written in the 1st Century. Yet we have no texts of Josephus' work dating from earlier that about the 13th Century. Applying your logic, we should conclude that Josephus is a myth fabricated in the middle ages.

I merely exposed your double standard argument which is void of logic .

You know that it has been deduced by Scholars that the Pauline Corpus contains at least SIX Epistles that are forgeries or falsely attributed to Paul and know that in Acts that there is no corroboration and NO mention of the 13 Epistles yet persist in assuming that there were Pauline writings before c 62 CE.

In Antiquities of the Jews there is internal information to tentatively date it to C 93 CE but there is no internal information in the Pauline Corpus to date any letter before c 62 CE.

Antiquities of the Jews 20

.......I shall put an end to these Antiquities, which are contained in twenty books, and sixty thousand verses. And if God permit me, I will briefly run over this war (29), and to add what befell them further to that very day, the 13th of Domitian, or A.D. 03, is not, that I have observed, taken distinct notice of by any one; nor do we ever again, with what befell us therein to this very day, which is the thirteenth year of the reign of Caesar Domitian, and the fifty-sixth year of my own life.

Antiquities of the Jews was finally composed in the 13th year of Domitian or when Josephus was 56 years old.

There is nothing internally in the Pauline Corpus to date them and there are Christian writings which are internally dated to c 150 CE, the time of Antoninus, that contain nothing of the Pauline Corpus.

 

[dejudge]

I don't think you realize it, but you're saying that if I accept the existence of Kim Jong-il, then I should accept what the DPRK propaganda mill said about him.

I don't think you realize it, but whether or not you accept the propaganda about Kim Jong il he is a documented figure of history.

Surely you don't realize that Jesus was a documented figure of mythology. You must have forgotten that Jesus was born of a Ghost and God Creator in hundreds of manuscripts and apologetic writings whether or not you believe the modern propaganda for which there is no evidence that he was a Zealot, a Cynic, a rabbi, an itinerant preacher or messianic pretender.

 

[Belz...]

No, No, No!! I never said such a thing!!

Yes you did. In fact you do it right here:

1. Jesus of Nazareth was described as the Son of a Ghost, God Creator, who walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

2. Jesus of Nazareth has no history outside the Bible and Apologetics.

3. Jesus of Nazareth perfectly matches the criteria for Mythology---all myth and no actual history.

4. I will consider that Jesus is a figure of mythology until new evidence is found.

My position is perfectly reasonable.

Your conclusion is perfectly reasonable. Your reasoning is absurd.

 

[Belz...]

You are now exposing your own problems with logic and facts.

I don't think you are capable of identifying such problems.

You have accepted that Kim Jong il was the conspicuously bizarre leader of an entire nation based on what was communicated to you.

Why do you now misrepresent what Christian writers communicated to us about their Jesus?

That is one of the most dishonest representations of someone's posts I have ever seen. Your rewording in order to match Jesus to Kim for your own purposes is beyond despicable.

 

[Belz...]

Magical claims have been made about mythological characters.

Real people have history.

You're almost there, but you are unable to make the last connection.

You claimed Josephus wrote about James the brother of Jesus when you knew in advance of posting that you had no 1st century writing about Jesus of Nazareth.

You reject the writings of Josephus but simultaneously use it to prove James had a brother called the Christ.

I see you gleefully ignore Zygote's point about Josephus.

What?? You are not really familiar with the abundance of writings in antiquity.

About everybody ?

 

[Belz...]

I don't think you realize it, but whether or not you accept the propaganda about Kim Jong il he is a documented figure of history.

Yes, despite mythological elements about him. Again, you're almost there.

 

[TimCallahan]

Maximara: Concerning Tacitus' reference to the "Chrestians", I asked a bit earlier what was your basis for arguing that Chrestians wasn't simply a misspelling of Christians. You asserted, IIRC, that the Chrestians were followers of Serapis. Could you elaborate on that for me?

I do seem to recall that Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225) complained of people referring to Christians as Chrestians, though I don't recall where he did this.

ETA: Here it is in Chapter III of Ad Nationes (quoted from the site):

The name Christian, however, so far as its meaning goes, bears the sense of anointing. Even when by a faulty pronunciation you call us "Chrestians" (for you are not certain about even the sound of this noted name), you in fact lisp out the sense of pleasantness and goodness.