Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Originally Posted by TimCallahan
Okay, one last time: How and - most especially - why do YOU see this Christian religion, originating in the second century, going out of its way to identify with a made-up Jewish rabbi / messiah figure?

I never claimed Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. I specifically stated that Jesus was a myth, a monstrous fable, called God Creator who came down from heaven and born of Ghost that walked on the sea for miles..

I know of no Jewish rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth that was documented by non-apologetics to be a Messianic ruler in the time of Pilate.

Look at the hilited area of the post I made, to which you were supposedly responding. Do you see the words "made up"? What I was asking you - and I'll try one more time to get an answer - is this: Assuming, as you assert, that the Christian mthos was created ca. CE 180, apparently as a non-Jewish religion, why did this new cult go out of its way to manufacture Jesus as a messianic figure and why did the practitioners of the cult go out of their way to saddle themselves with the baggage of Jewish associations?
 
Tim - just to be clear; firstly I was not endorsing dejudge's claim of Paul’s letters dating only after 180AD. What I was disputing was that the other poster (was it Craig-B?) was making a false argument in which he was inadvertently assuming he was right to think that the letters definitely did date from c.60AD, when of course he does not actually know that at all ... far less can he know what might really have been written in any letter from c.60AD.

However apart from that - the first problem with any mention of a church at Jerusalem in any of Paul's letters, is that we only have Christian copies of those letters written from around c.200AD and later (mostly, much later iirc).

So we do not actually know if any original writing from Paul at any earlier date of around 60AD, mentioned an existing Jerusalem church building at that earlier time. We actually do not know what Paul may or may not have written at any date around 60AD.

Apart from which - is it certain that anyone writing of a Jerusalem church (either writing in 60AD or long after that date), was definitely referring to a specific stone building? Or could that have been a reference to the group of the most faithful believers in Jerusalem? Or even reference to another building used as their "church" in Jerusalem? For example look at what Paul says in Galatians of his first trip to Jerusalem (see the quote below) - he says “ I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.”, but there he clearly does not mean he tried to destroy a building! … when he says “the church”, he means it was the group of people and their beliefs that he tried to destroy … the “church” he refers to there was the people and their beliefs -


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.+1:13-24&version=NIV
Galatians 1:13-24
New International Version (NIV)

13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
21 Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they praised God because of me.



Of his second trip to Jerusalem 14 years later, iirc Paul only says that he went to the place Jerusalem and took Barnabus and Titus with him -

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+2:1&version=NIV
Galatians 2:1
New International Version (NIV)
Paul Accepted by the Apostles

2 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.


Perhaps Paul’s letters somewhere do talk of him actually being inside the stone building of the church and describing it? But you can tell me if that sort of internal evidence for the existence of the church building itself exists in any of Paul’s letters (albeit, the letters are still copies written centuries after the supposed lifetime of Paul)?.

No, I wasn't referring to a specific building. I was referring to a congregation located in Jerusalem, which would have ceased to exist by CE 70. What I'm saying is that Paul couldn't have gone to visit a congregation of believers in Jerusalem after CE 70, or probably even after CE 66, when the Jewish revolt began. There was no Jerusalem to go to after CE 70, and it's quite possible there was no congregation of Jesus followers after CE 66. If they really believed that he was the messiah they would probably vacated the city once the revolt started.
 
Verily, it came to pass that the bickering in R&P reached the ears of the MOD, and sore inflamed his wrath. And the MOD gathered the four winds unto him, and descended into the thread; in his left hand was the tablet on which was graven the MA, and in his right was the Staff of Smiting. And the MOD spake unto the posters in R&P in a voice like thunder, "Thou hath cast aside MY commandments and art bickering among thyselves, such that none may abide; I shall smite thee and cast thou into Suspendatoria." And there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. And the MOD's heart was softened, and he turned from his wrath; and yet he admonished the posters, "Repent thou of thy bickery ways, lest ye be smitten; for though the MOD's patience is great, it is not eternal." And the posters repented; and the MOD saw that it was good.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
 
That's hilarious. The only assumption I make is that Paul wrote this before the end of his lifetime: Only The Lord didn't come back before Paul died. Did the forgers post 180 put this in to make Paul look like an idiot? No, Paul put it in, because he was an apocalypticist, and that's what he believed.

That makes sense as an assumption, and sounds more likely than not.

No Christian forger in 180 will deliberately remind anyone that Paul is wrong here. No Christian forger will do that to Paul.

However, I couldn't say that with any certainty.
 
Verily, it came to pass that the bickering in R&P reached the ears of the MOD, and sore inflamed his wrath. And the MOD gathered the four winds unto him, and descended into the thread; in his left hand was the tablet on which was graven the MA, and in his right was the Staff of Smiting. And the MOD spake unto the posters in R&P in a voice like thunder, "Thou hath cast aside MY commandments and art bickering among thyselves, such that none may abide; I shall smite thee and cast thou into Suspendatoria." And there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. And the MOD's heart was softened, and he turned from his wrath; and yet he admonished the posters, "Repent thou of thy bickery ways, lest ye be smitten; for though the MOD's patience is great, it is not eternal." And the posters repented; and the MOD saw that it was good.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163

I'm starting to think this job has gone to his head...
 
Verily, it came to pass that the bickering in R&P reached the ears of the MOD, and sore inflamed his wrath. And the MOD gathered the four winds unto him, and descended into the thread; in his left hand was the tablet on which was graven the MA, and in his right was the Staff of Smiting. And the MOD spake unto the posters in R&P in a voice like thunder, "Thou hath cast aside MY commandments and art bickering among thyselves, such that none may abide; I shall smite thee and cast thou into Suspendatoria." And there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. And the MOD's heart was softened, and he turned from his wrath; and yet he admonished the posters, "Repent thou of thy bickery ways, lest ye be smitten; for though the MOD's patience is great, it is not eternal." And the posters repented; and the MOD saw that it was good.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
LOL

Outstanding! :eusa_clap:
 
... What I'm saying is that Paul couldn't have gone to visit a congregation of believers in Jerusalem after CE 70, or probably even after CE 66, when the Jewish revolt began. There was no Jerusalem to go to after CE 70, and it's quite possible there was no congregation of Jesus followers after CE 66. If they really believed that he was the messiah they would probably vacated the city once the revolt started.
We are told precisely that by the fourth century Christian author Eusebius. See wiki entry on the town of Pella.
The city was the site of one of Christianity's earliest churches. According to Eusebius of Caesarea it was a refuge for Jerusalem Christians in the 1st century AD who were fleeing the Jewish–Roman wars.
 
We are told precisely that by the fourth century Christian author Eusebius. See wiki entry on the town of Pella.

Quote:
The city was the site of one of Christianity's earliest churches. According to Eusebius of Caesarea it was a refuge for Jerusalem Christians in the 1st century AD who were fleeing the Jewish–Roman wars.

I think Eusebius got it wrong. Jerusalem would probably be the last place to which you'd want to flee to escape the conflict. While the Romans were preparing to besiege it, a civil war was raging within its walls. The more radical Jewish revolutionaries put those less radical to the death. It would not be a place in which any follower of Jesus would be.
 
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Quote:
The city was the site of one of Christianity's earliest churches. According to Eusebius of Caesarea it was a refuge for Jerusalem Christians in the 1st century AD who were fleeing the Jewish–Roman wars.

I think Eusebius got it wrong. Jerusalem would probably be the last place to which you'd want to flee to escape the conflict.

No. They fled from Jerusalem to Pella. The Church tradition calls it the "Pella flight".

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html

Eusebius (325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
 
... I think Eusebius got it wrong. Jerusalem would probably be the last place to which you'd want to flee to escape the conflict. While the Romans were preparing to besiege it, a civil war was raging within its walls. The more radical Jewish revolutionaries put those less radical to the death. It would not be a place in which any follower of Jesus would be.
You're absolutely right, but like Brainache I think you have misread Eusebius. He says they did indeed leave Jerusalem. They went to Pella. Some historians have doubted the truth of this, however. According to them, it's more probable that they were destroyed or dispersed with other Jews during the war, leaving the field open for the Pauline version of non-Jewish Christianity. The late Hyam Maccoby was of this opinion. See his book on Paul: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, 1986. Eusebius' Pella story would in this view be motivated by a desire to establish continuity between the earlier Jamesian Christianity and its Pauline successor.
 
You're absolutely right, but like Brainache I think you have misread Eusebius. He says they did indeed leave Jerusalem. They went to Pella. Some historians have doubted the truth of this, however. According to them, it's more probable that they were destroyed or dispersed with other Jews during the war, leaving the field open for the Pauline version of non-Jewish Christianity. The late Hyam Maccoby was of this opinion. See his book on Paul: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, 1986. Eusebius' Pella story would in this view be motivated by a desire to establish continuity between the earlier Jamesian Christianity and its Pauline successor.

That seems about right to me. if there were any Jewish Christians left after the war, they would have probably been a minority within Christianity, because the churches set up by Paul were outside Judea.
 
That seems about right to me. if there were any Jewish Christians left after the war, they would have probably been a minority within Christianity, because the churches set up by Paul were outside Judea.

Paul set up no churches outside Judea.

It was the 12 [illiterate] disciples of Jesus that preached the Gospel to the world according to Aristides, Justin Martyr and Arnobius.

Plus, the author of the Muratorian Canon claimed the Pauline Corpus was fabricated After Revelation by John.

Even, Origen and Eusebius claimed Paul was alive after gLuke was composed.

In Justin's Apology, the Pauline Corpus was not known and Justin claimed it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the books of the Prophets that were read in the Churches.

It makes no sense whatsoever that Paul a Pharisee would set up churches starting since c 37-41 "all over" the Roman Empire asking people to worship a dead Teacher as a God and Savior of all mankind.
 
Paul set up no churches outside Judea.

It was the 12 [illiterate] disciples of Jesus that preached the Gospel to the world according to Aristides, Justin Martyr and Arnobius.

Plus, the author of the Muratorian Canon claimed the Pauline Corpus was fabricated After Revelation by John.

Even, Origen and Eusebius claimed Paul was alive after gLuke was composed.

In Justin's Apology, the Pauline Corpus was not known and Justin claimed it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the books of the Prophets that were read in the Churches.

It makes no sense whatsoever that Paul a Pharisee would set up churches starting since c 37-41 "all over" the Roman Empire asking people to worship a dead Teacher as a God and Savior of all mankind.

I don't know how to tell you this dejudge, but these arguments of yours are just useless.

You are wasting your time saying these things, because they are too stupid for anyone else to agree with.

Sorry.
 
I don't know how to tell you this dejudge, but these arguments of yours are just useless.

You are wasting your time saying these things, because they are too stupid for anyone else to agree with.

Sorry.

You have nothing but Youtube.

Please, read Chrysostom Homilies on the Pauline Corpus before you post anything about the Pauline Jesus.

It is documented that the Pauline Jesus was God's Own Son.

The Pauline Jesus was the Son of God and a woman which is similar to the Gospels.

Galatians 4:4 KJV
But when the fulness of the time was come , God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...
 
Oh there's the cute little troll again.
I thought we lost you a page back or so.

Good to know Grouchy hasn't left.

And I see you are still in good form of banter, insult, and elitism just as always; cheers!
:thumbsup:
 
You have nothing but Youtube.

Please, read Chrysostom Homilies on the Pauline Corpus before you post anything about the Pauline Jesus.

It is documented that the Pauline Jesus was God's Own Son.

The Pauline Jesus was the Son of God and a woman which is similar to the Gospels.

Galatians 4:4 KJV

Just because people say these things doesn't mean you have to believe it all you know.

Paul said that, I agree. That doesn't mean it's true.

Is this confusing for you?
 
Look at the hilited area of the post I made, to which you were supposedly responding. Do you see the words "made up"? What I was asking you - and I'll try one more time to get an answer - is this: Assuming, as you assert, that the Christian mthos was created ca. CE 180, apparently as a non-Jewish religion, why did this new cult go out of its way to manufacture Jesus as a messianic figure and why did the practitioners of the cult go out of their way to saddle themselves with the baggage of Jewish associations?

I never said Christian mythos were created c 180 CE? Why can't you repeat what I have posted.

You seem to have no idea that the Jesus story is a compilation of Jewish, Roman and Greek mythology.

It can be easily seen that the fabricators of the Jesus stories used the Septuagint and the writings of Josephus to invent their Jesus of Nazareth.

Now, we have gMark, the earliest Jesus story in the Canon, and it can be easily seen that gMark's story was fabricated to show that the Jews were Evil and caused Jesus the Son of God to be crucified and that not even the very disciples of Jesus really believed he was the Son of God.

In effect, the earliest story of Jesus in the Canon is anti-Jewish propaganda to explain the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE.

Justin's Dialogue
Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him..

Hippolytus Treatise Against the Jews
7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? ........it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father..
 
Just because people say these things doesn't mean you have to believe it all you know.

Paul said that, I agree. That doesn't mean it's true.

Is this confusing for you?

Tell us the truth about Paul. You have nothing but your imagination. You do not have to believe all what you imagine is true.
 
Just because people say these things doesn't mean you have to believe it all you know.

Paul said that, I agree. That doesn't mean it's true.

Is this confusing for you?
SHH, Paul didn't say that silly.

According to 6th century Cassiodorus, 4th century St. Chrysostom wrote that the Pauline texts were forgeries and only about a myth god.

Pay attention or dejudge will need to lay down more smack upon you! Sheesh. :p
 
SHH, Paul didn't say that silly.

According to 6th century Cassiodorus, 4th century St. Chrysostom wrote that the Pauline texts were forgeries and only about a myth god.

Pay attention or dejudge will need to lay down more smack upon you! Sheesh. :p



The ENTIRE Pauline Corpus were written by Fakes if Saul/Paul was a figure of history in Acts of the Apostles.

The author of Acts wrote nothing of Pauline letters up to at least c 62 CE or the time of Festus procurator of Judea.
 
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