Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Please read this blog posted by Richard Carrier:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4733


TL: DR version: "Please stop what you are doing. It just makes you look foolish".

It would appear to me that either you have not even read the blog yourself or have quickly forgotten what it states.

The blog is directly applicable to you. You should be Agnostic on the historicity of Jesus.

........historicity agnosticism is far more defensible and makes far more sense for amateurs on the sidelines...

Are you going to abandon your view that Jesus was a Zealot or abandon Carrier's advice?
 
It's something Historians do. I don't do it. I just respect their ability to draw conclusions from the data. That's where I got my Historical Jesus.



You just believed it when these "historians" said they had found something called a “historical Jesus”. But you have absolutely no idea how any historical Jesus was ever obtained from the biblical writing?

You don’t even know what you yourself mean by the things you yourself say on this subject?
 
It would appear to me that either you have not even read the blog yourself or have quickly forgotten what it states.

The blog is directly applicable to you. You should be Agnostic on the historicity of Jesus.



Are you going to abandon your view that Jesus was a Zealot or abandon Carrier's advice?

Quote mining now? Really?
Meanwhile, Fincke explains, “we should either be agnostic on the issue,” as Fincke is, or “defer to historical consensus,”or, “if we really find [e.g.] Carrier’s arguments compelling” then we should “still be cautious and qualified in our declarations, acknowledging that we are agreeing with a minority view (and one that even Carrier seems far from certain about).”...

Just emphasising a few bits you left out.

Do you think being dishonest is helping you?
 
You just believed it when these "historians" said they had found something called a “historical Jesus”. But you have absolutely no idea how any historical Jesus was ever obtained from the biblical writing?

What on earth makes you say that? You appear to be the only one here who doesn't understand how Historians reach their conclusions. Why are you projecting your ignorance on to me?

You don’t even know what you yourself mean by the things you yourself say on this subject?

You don't appear to be reading what I write.
 
Quote mining now? Really?


Just emphasising a few bits you left out.

Do you think being dishonest is helping you?


Are you denying that these words are found in the blog?

...historicity agnosticism is far more defensible and makes far more sense for amateurs on the sidelines

If you are an amateur it makes more sense to be agnostic on the historicity of Jesus.


Now, talking about dishonesty, let me emphasize a few bits you left out.

....Fincke makes a sound case for two basic points: (1) amateurs should not be voicing certitude in a matter still being debated by experts...

You must have forgotten to mention that Academics have not yet reached any consensus but are actively DEBATING the historicity or non-historicity of Jesus
 
Are you denying that these words are found in the blog?

No.


If you are an amateur it makes more sense to be agnostic on the historicity of Jesus.

That is his opinion and he is welcome to it. It is a blog, not something handed down from the mountain by God that I have to accept as the literal Truth.

Personally I don't think "we don't know" works as an Historical answer. So I go with what I think is more likely.

You don't have to agree with me if you don't want to. I won't cry about it.

Now, talking about dishonesty, let me emphasize a few bits you left out.

You must have forgotten to mention that Academics have not yet reached any consensus but are actively DEBATING the historicity or non-historicity of Jesus

OK. But don't forget:
...
He concludes, for example, that until “secular historians…at least become widely divided over” the matter of historicity (emphasis on widely and the minimal benchmark of divided), atheists who are not themselves experts in the field should not be “advocating for one side or the other routinely and prominently.” (There is a growing division, BTW, but it’s not yet wide…

Not many are on Carrier's side. At least not publicly.

So until the experts change their expert opinions, I'm going with the majority view. Which isn't fallacious, any more than accepting what the majority of Economists tell me about the economy is fallacious. I'm no expert there either.
 
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That is his opinion and he is welcome to it. It is a blog, not something handed down from the mountain by God that I have to accept as the literal Truth.

This is the precise difficulty I have with your post. All of sudden you now realize that is just a blog, just an opinion, not from the mountain by God that you don't have to accept as the literal Truth

Well, why must I accept what is written in the blog as the literal truth?
 
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This is the precise difficulty I have with your post. All of sudden you now realize that is just a blog, just an opinion, not from the mountain by God that you don't have to accept as the literal Truth

Well, why must I accept what is written in the blog as the literal truth?

You don't. Just be aware that if you carry on doing what you are doing, as far as Richard Carrier is concerned, you are doing more harm than good.

I thought you might like to be aware of his opinion on this matter.
 
Not many are on Carrier's side. At least not publicly.

So until the experts change their expert opinions, I'm going with the majority view. Which isn't fallacious, any more than accepting what the majority of Economists tell me about the economy is fallacious. I'm no expert there either.

I am having a lot difficulty with your post.

Did you say you are going with "the majority view"?

Jesus the Zealot is a majority view?

I find it extremely strange that you seem not to understand that Historians, the experts, also argue that Jesus was a figure of mythology, that some are Agnostic and some argue that Jesus was an Apocalyptic preacher.

You appear to be upset when others maintain other views which are argued and held by Historians.

I am going with the present available evidence from antiquity.

Jesus was described as the product of a Holy Ghost and was God the Creator

My position will not change until NEW historical evidence surfaces.

Jesus was a figure of mythology based on the abundance of antiquity.

The biography of Romulus matches Jesus.

Romulus was the mythological founder of Rome and Jesus is the mythological founder of the new Roman religion.
 
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I am having a lot difficulty with your post.

Did you say you are going with "the majority view"?

Jesus the Zealot is a majority view?

No. Jesus the Jewish Preacher-man is the majority view. Eisenman's Hypothesis is a subset of that.

I find it extremely strange that you seem not to understand that Historians, the experts, also argue that Jesus was a figure of mythology, that some are Agnostic and some argue that Jesus was an Apocalyptic preacher.

You appear to be upset when others maintain other views which are argued and held by Historians.

I'm upset because people like you think a fringe position which is held by a handful of people at best, constitutes some kind of giant rift in the consensus.

I am going with the present available evidence from antiquity.

...

No you aren't. You are looking at this stuff with the complete ignorance of someone who thinks the Study of History involves taking the Gospel accounts at face-value.

Every post of yours just digs you in a little bit deeper. Call me when you get to the centre of the earth. I saw a documentary once that proved that Atlantis was down there. It had James Mason and Doug McClure in it...
 
No. Jesus the Jewish Preacher-man is the majority view. Eisenman's Hypothesis is a subset of that.

You hold the view of a subset that Jesus was a Zealot.


Brianache said:
You are looking at this stuff with the complete ignorance of someone who thinks the Study of History involves taking the Gospel accounts at face-value.



It is Historians and people like you who take the Bible at face value who argue that Jesus was a LITERAL PHYSICAL human being.

You are attempting to historicise mythology.

I do no such thing. I consider that Jesus is no different to Romulus.

As soon as NT manuscripts and Codices were found which publicly declared Jesus was a product of Ghost and God Creator then I can only accept Jesus as a figure of mythology.

Why do you take Jesus as a literal figure of history?

You think Jesus was literally crucified when the same Gospels state he was born of a Ghost and A virgin, walked on the sea of Galilee, instantly transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

Brianache said:
Every post of yours just digs you in a little bit deeper. Call me when you get to the centre of the earth. I saw a documentary once that proved that Atlantis was down there. It had James Mason and Doug McClure in it...

Actually it is the opposite. I have exposed that there was NEVER any consensus among Academics. Richard Carrier, Bart Erhman, Robert Eiseman and Agnostic Historians have NEVER conceded that there was an historical Jesus--a Zealot.

The very fact we have historians presenting multiple historical Jesus characters, multiple myth Jesus characters [plus the agnostics]is because there was never any historical evidence or data for Jesus of Nazareth in the 1st century.

In effect, the historical Jesus is essentially a myth.
 
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Did researchers assume parts of Plutarch's Romulus was true? Did researchers assume parts of the mythological Gods and Sons of Gods of Greek, Romam,Persian, Egyptian, Jewish mythology was true.

Yes, at one time researchers did exactly that. In fact this idea even has a name: Euhemerism.

"Perhaps the greatest Miner issue is the fact that all claims of evidence must take into account the mind set of the day. Herodotus (c484 – 425 BCE), the father of history, had argued that myths were distorted accounts of real historical events. Euhemerus (4th century - 3rd century BCE) took that idea and kicked it up to the next level suggesting that all myths had some basis in historical fact.

"The work is of immense importance, for Euhemerus proposes that myth is history in disguise, that deities were originally living men and women who were elevated to divine status because of heroic feats when alive."

The statement "Osiris, Attis, Adonis were men. They died as men; they rose as gods." captures this mind set perfectly." (Rationalwiki's Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ article; internal references removed for ease of reading)


Here is an actually example of Euhemerism from Plato:

"Phaedrus: Tell me, Socrates, isn't it from somewhere near this stretch of the Ilisus that people say Boreas carried Orithuia away?

Socrates: So they say.

Phaedrus: Couldn't this be the very spot? The stream is lovely, pure and clear: just right for girls to be playing nearby.

Socrates: No, it is two or three hundred yards farther downstream, where one crosses to get to the district of Arga. I think there is even an altar to Boreas there.

Phaedrus: I hadn't noticed it. But tell me, Socrates, in the name of Zeus, do you really believe that legend is true?

Socrates: Actually, it would not be out of place for me to reject it, as our intellectuals do. I could then tell a clever story: I could claim that a gust of the North Wind blew her over the rocks where she was playing with Pharmaceia; and once she was killed that way people said she had been carried off by Boreas..." (Plato, Phaedr. 229b-d, translation taken from: Plato (1997). Cooper, John Madison; Hutchinson, D.S., eds. Complete works. Hackett Publishing. p. 1808. ISBN 978-0-87220-349-5.)

The wikipedia article on Euhemerism has this:

"Euhemerus argued that Zeus was a mortal king who died on Crete, and that his tomb could still be found there with the inscription bearing his name (Zeus Is Dead: Euhemerus and Crete, S. Spyridakis, The Classical Journal, Vol. 63, No. 8, May, 1968, pp. 337-340.) This claim however did not originate with Euhemerus, as the general sentiment of Crete during the time of Epimenides of Knossos (c. 600 BCE) was that Zeus was buried somewhere in Crete."


Why are people attempting to historicize a blatant mythological character called Jesus is beyond me?

Because that is how history for the majority of it existence worked; all myth are distortions of actual events.

Why don't they historicize Plutarch's Romulus? He was the mythological founder of Rome born of a woman with a human brother who ascended to heaven after his body vanished when he died. On the day Romulus died there was darkness--the day was turned into night.

Plutarch's Romulus and NT Jesus are similar Myths.

Plutarch's Romulus didn't need to be historicized...because that was the go to for history.
 
dejudge

Just to save some time, I'm 60-40 in favor of a historical Jesus. As these things go, forty is a big number for the short end. I take it as a very serious possibility that Jesus was made up. It doesn't follow, however, that I accept every story about evidence that comes down the pike.

You think Jesus was literally crucified when the same Gospels state he was born of a Ghost and A virgin, ...
Only one Gospel, Matthew, says that Mary hadn't had sex with Joseph before Jesus was born, and in the same breath, wrongly asserts that there was a Jewish prophecy to that effect. This leads me to suspect that this reporter has gotten both stories wrong. That is uninformative about whether a poorly identified Jewish woman had a baby, as Paul tells us he thinks is so.

... walked on the sea of Galilee,...
Actually the earliest version of the tale we have, in Mark, is that he was seen walking on water, by tired superstitious men in poor lighting conditions. We know they're superstitious, because they thought waterwalking Jesus was a ghost.

... instantly transfigured ...
Actually, the incident took a while - first there was an uphill hike. Well, no, actually first there was a selection of the audience, three winnowed down from a previously hand-picked twelve companions. I notice some intersection between this group and the men just discussed who saw a ghost on the water when they were tired. Anyway, first the selection, then who knows when they had last eaten, slept or drank, then the uphill hike, and then the three saw and heard things. I think I know how a natural man might have arranged this.

...resurrected...
I take it you mean that the same people who saw his ghost when he was alive saw it again after he died. Then some other people saw it, too, like Paul, who did so while taking a break from visiting the Third Heaven on holiday.

...and ascended in a cloud.
Not in Mark or John, and where it is reported, it is seen by the people we've been discussing, superstitious people, selected according to some undisclosed criterion from a superstitious population, and prone to see things.

That says a lot about them, but doesn't suggest to me that they never existed. It opens the door to the possibility that their Jesus was entirely dreamt or hallucinated by them, hence the 40, but I also get the impression that they may well have been manipulated by somebody, hence the 60.

I could see somebody like that getting killed by the Romans. Crucifixion would work.
 
...

I could see somebody like that getting killed by the Romans. Crucifixion would work.

A very informative post. I like your take on the walking on water and post-resurrection appearances. I hadn't thought of them like that before. Thanks.
 
dejudge Just to save some time, I'm 60-40 in favor of a historical Jesus. As these things go, forty is a big number for the short end. I take it as a very serious possibility that Jesus was made up. It doesn't follow, however, that I accept every story about evidence that comes down the pike.

Well, I am 100-zip in favor of mythology.

Only one Gospel, Matthew, says that Mary hadn't had sex with Joseph before Jesus was born, and in the same breath, wrongly asserts that there was a Jewish prophecy to that effect. This leads me to suspect that this reporter has gotten both stories wrong. That is uninformative about whether a poorly identified Jewish woman had a baby, as Paul tells us he thinks is so.

Which Paul are you referring to? Fake Paul?
1. In gMark Jesus was the Son of God.

2. In gMatthew Jesus was born of a Ghost.

3. In gLuke, Jesus was a product of a Ghost.

4. In gJohn Jesus was God Creator.

5. In the Pauline Corpus, Jesus was the Last Adam and made a Spirit.

6. In Ignatius Jesus was born of a Ghost.

7. In Aristides Jesus was God came down from heaven.

8. In Justin Jesus was born without sexual union.

9. In Irenaeus Jesus was born of a Ghost.

10. In Tertullian, Jesus had God for his father without a human mother.

11. In Origen, Jesus was born of a Ghost.

12. In Hippolytus, Jesus was the Logos, God Creator.

Jesus of Nazareth is 100% pure unadulterated mythology--far purer than Romulus and Remus.
 
...I take it you mean that the same people who saw his ghost when he was alive saw it again after he died. Then some other people saw it, too, like Paul, who did so while taking a break from visiting the Third Heaven on holiday.


Not in Mark or John, and where it is reported, it is seen by the people we've been discussing, superstitious people, selected according to some undisclosed criterion from a superstitious population, and prone to see things.

That says a lot about them, but doesn't suggest to me that they never existed. It opens the door to the possibility that their Jesus was entirely dreamt or hallucinated by them, hence the 40, but I also get the impression that they may well have been manipulated by somebody, hence the 60.

I could see somebody like that getting killed by the Romans. Crucifixion would work.

60/40
conman/myth

A bit cruel, perhaps, but it sounds about right.
 
Your response is extremely amusing.

You find it amusing that you didn't know what "consensus" means ?

I cannot understand why you would want to go on the internet to show that you don't know that consensus also means "unanimity".

It DOESN'T mean "unanimity". There is a consensus, which means the vast majority of experts agree. It doesn't mean ALL of them agree, because if it did, consensus would be impossible even in hard fields like physics.
 
You find it amusing that you didn't know what "consensus" means ?



It DOESN'T mean "unanimity". There is a consensus, which means the vast majority of experts agree. It doesn't mean ALL of them agree, because if it did, consensus would be impossible even in hard fields like physics.

con·sen·sus
noun, often attributive \kən-ˈsen(t)-səs\

: a general agreement about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group
Full Definition of CONSENSUS
1
a : general agreement : unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports … from the border — John Hersey


Consensus can be used to mean simple majority or unanimity. The way it's been thrown around in this thread I took it to mean that all Historians agreed with an HJ because if you didn't agree you weren't an Historian but an evil Myther.
 
Well, I am 100-zip in favor of mythology.

Which just shows that you are not being reasonable about this issue: you are concluding where you have no evidence.

con·sen·sus
noun, often attributive \kən-ˈsen(t)-səs\

: a general agreement about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group
Full Definition of CONSENSUS
1
a : general agreement : unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports … from the border — John Hersey


Consensus can be used to mean simple majority or unanimity. The way it's been thrown around in this thread I took it to mean that all Historians agreed with an HJ because if you didn't agree you weren't an Historian but an evil Myther.

I stand quite corrected. Of all people I didn't expect you to trade your usual wit for an actual definition. However, I'm puzzled at how "general agreement" could possibly mean "everyone agrees". :confused: In addition it means that consensus is an impossible thing to reach in science. It's odd because scientists use the term all the time. You'd think they know what the hell it means.

Anyway I'll retract my earlier bumbling attempt at correction and go with the following: most experts agree.
 
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