Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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If these writers did encounter that weird doctrine, they reacted as one would expect:
Tacitus: a most mischievous superstition
Pliny: depraved, excessive superstition.
These comment, I have no doubt, were their responses to the idea of dead people walking about, and similar Christian notions.

Even Christians claimed other Christians were Liars and of the Devil.

The Christians of the Simon Magus cult were hated by other Christian cults.

It is completely illogical to assume all Christians believed the Jesus story when it is DOCUMENTED that there MULTIPLE Christians who did NOT believe the Gospel or that Jesus was born.

See "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus, "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus, "Prescription Against the Heretics" attributed to Tertullian.

Tacitus and Pliny did not even mention Jesus.
 
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max

Dime-novel ghost story level by our standards.
The difficulty I have with Carrier's entertaining fantasy about Roman reaction is Pliny's letter to Sura. Nobody who was anybody saw Jesus after he died. It's just a ghost story, whatever frills, religious baloney and even well-observed psychological and clinical features got painted on, years and deacdes after the fact.

The first we hear about any missing body is in Mark, and his flighty women don't make much effort to find it. Paul tells us the body was on a stake or a cross for a while, and that it was buried or entombed. No more than that. Paul's theory about sowing the dead body and harvesting the pneuma body doesn't exclude a left-over husk.

As late as Acts, nobody offers to take tourists to see the empty tomb. Until 50 days later, the James Gang is either tied up in meetings with the boss, or holed up in the Cenacle. As late as John, Mary Magdalene thinks somebody simply moved the body, so she asks whom she thinks is the gardener about it. (Given that she was in clinical shock at the time, convincingly portrayed by 'John,' maybe it was the gardener).

There's just not a lot here for Roman law enforcement to take an interest in, IMO. I concur with, and defer to Craig as far as much later Roman writer's reactions go.
 
dejudge said:
Even Christians claimed other Christians were Liars and of the Devil.

The Christians of the Simon Magus cult were hated by other Christian cults.

It is completely illogical to assume all Christians believed the Jesus story when it is DOCUMENTED that there MULTIPLE Christians who did NOT believe the Gospel or that Jesus was born.

See "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus, "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus, "Prescription Against the Heretics" attributed to Tertullian.

Tacitus and Pliny did not even mention Jesus.

Again, this is a strange irrelevant response to my post. So what?

Your response is irrelevant to my post.

Your position is a failure of logic and facts.

There were MULTIPLE cults called Christians with Multiple irreconcilable beliefs and myth fables of Gods and Sons of Gods which is documented in many Apologetic writings.

It is just totally unreasonable to assume every Christian cult believed the same Myth Fables especially when there is not even a mention of Jesus.
 
proudfootz

I'm not "anti-Bayesian," just observing that Bayes doesn't cure the specific thing Carrier was quoted as being optimisitc that it might. When there is plenty of evidence, just about all the methods will agree on the same answer. When there is little evidence, opinions mostly reflect "what makes sense" to each individual, based on their background information. Bayes doesn't help much there, since it has no definite theory of belief formation. Bayes works best where it has the most to say: managing evidence so as to approach the correct conclusion by regular change of beliefs.

I think the HJ-MJ-GJ problem is evidence-poor, and likely to stay that way for a long time. Bayes doesn't hurt, but doesn't help much either. IMO - discussions about Bayes, pro and con, resemble religious debates in many ways :).

Definitely very little evidence to go by.

Unless something else turns up we'll have another round of trying to reinterpret the same old stuff for a new generation.
 
Your response is irrelevant to my post.

Your position is a failure of logic and facts.

There were MULTIPLE cults called Christians with Multiple irreconcilable beliefs and myth fables of Gods and Sons of Gods which is documented in many Apologetic writings.

It is just totally unreasonable to assume every Christian cult believed the same Myth Fables especially when there is not even a mention of Jesus.

You're quite correct - it's nonsensical to simply assume as fact a linear development of such a broad-based cultural trend.
 
If these writers did encounter that weird doctrine, they reacted as one would expect:
Tacitus: a most mischievous superstition
Pliny: depraved, excessive superstition.
These comment, I have no doubt, were their responses to the idea of dead people walking about, and similar Christian notions.

It's certainly possible.

Sadly, we'll never know, due to lack of evidence. :(
 
Definitely very little evidence to go by.

Unless something else turns up we'll have another round of trying to reinterpret the same old stuff for a new generation.

The MJ argument has far more mythological evidence than probably all the myth characters in antiquity.

Hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writings have been found describing Jesus of Nazareth as a myth from conception to ascension.

HJers have no contemporary evidence for their argument and are attempting to put forward a most illogical notion that there is little evidence for a Mythological Jesus.

There are hundreds of arguments by Jesus cult Christians that their Jesus never had a human father and was God Creator.

Virtually every Christian writer argued AGAINST an historical Jesus for hundreds of years.

If Jesus of Nazareth never existed in the 1st century then there would NO evidence of his existence and that is exactly what has happened.

It can easily be argued that Jesus was a figure of mythology UNTIL new evidence surfaces.
 
Your statement is a failure of logic and facts. In Galatians it is claimed that Paul preached the Faith that he persecuted.

Galatians 1

"But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed"

There is no statement in the Pauline Corpus that the other Apostles worshiped a man as a God.

This would be the smoking gun that the people Paul persecuted thought Jesus was a god who undertook some mission disguised as a man.

Paul's not very clear where or when this was supposed to have happened.

Maybe it was on another plane - Paul is on record as speaking of various levels of 'heaven'.

This would account for the lack of a ministry and disciples as well. Occam's Razor does the trick!
 
The MJ argument has far more mythological evidence than probably all the myth characters in antiquity.

Hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writings have been found describing Jesus of Nazareth as a myth from conception to ascension.

HJers have no contemporary evidence for their argument and are attempting to put forward a most illogical notion that there is little evidence for a Mythological Jesus.

There are hundreds of arguments by Jesus cult Christians that their Jesus never had a human father and was God Creator.

Virtually every Christian writer argued AGAINST an historical Jesus for hundreds of years.

If Jesus of Nazareth never existed in the 1st century then there would NO evidence of his existence and that is exactly what has happened.

It can easily be argued that Jesus was a figure of mythology UNTIL new evidence surfaces.

Again you zero in on a telling point: it just won't do to dismiss all the mythological material and then turn around and say there's 'no evidence' of mythology.
 
It's certainly possible.

Sadly, we'll never know, due to lack of evidence. :(

Actually it is those who claim an event occured who must present the evidence of the occurence.

It was expected that HJers would NOT present any evidence for their HJ and that is EXACTLY what has happened.

Lack of evidence for an assumed HJ has no negative effect on the MJ argument.

HJers made a conscious decision to argue for an HJ without evidence.

HJers will NEVER know who their assumed HJ was without evidence.
 
Actually it is those who claim an event occured who must present the evidence of the occurence.

It was expected that HJers would NOT present any evidence for their HJ and that is EXACTLY what has happened.

Lack of evidence for an assumed HJ has no negative effect on the MJ argument.

HJers made a conscious decision to argue for an HJ without evidence.

HJers will NEVER know who their assumed HJ was without evidence.

Your argument might carry some weight if you could demonstrate that you had some working knowledge of how History is studied.

We have seen no evidence of that.
 
Actually it is those who claim an event occured who must present the evidence of the occurence.

It was expected that HJers would NOT present any evidence for their HJ and that is EXACTLY what has happened.

Lack of evidence for an assumed HJ has no negative effect on the MJ argument.

HJers made a conscious decision to argue for an HJ without evidence.

HJers will NEVER know who their assumed HJ was without evidence.

Did you miss this post from Stone?

Yeah, let's:

Professional scholarly consensus today comes down on the side of the Paul letters being the earliest extant documentation on Jesus the teacher. A number of Pauline letters, though, are forged, meaning one must be as strict as possible in confining the Pauline letters to those that are most likely authentic. The consensus is that seven of them are. However, one view circumscribes that even further, to four only:

http://books.google.com/books?id=A5... Man and the Myth Paul authentic four&f=false

At this link, you can read up on a certain Morton from the '60s, who analysed the letters and found only these four surviving the "cut": Galatians, Romans, Corinthians 1, Corinthians 2.

Clearly, Morton's methods were strongly criticised by some. I only cite Morton as but one example of a few especially strict voices, merely to shew why it may be best to err on the side of too few authentic sources, rather than too many, for whatever reason. The four Paulines that even Morton accepts as genuine also have the relatively largest preponderance of references (among all the Paulines, genuine, doubtful and forged) to Jesus as a human with a human biography. This is a relatively preponderant characteristic they share with all seven of those Paulines which the dreaded consensus accepts as genuine: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians, and Romans. ...
The four Morton Paulines are typical of arguably the earliest written documentation we have on Jesus the teacher. At the same time, your examples of Tacitus and Antiqs. 20 (the account of James becoming a pulp) are probably the most disinterested. From both sets of documents emerge an historic human figure.

Only with these first as a working foundation does it make any sense to then apply the philological strata that modern academic scholarship has painstakingly assembled for the rest of the data, applied primarily to certain sayings in the Synoptics and in GThomas. Here is where "multiple attestation", as the academics behind the dreaded consensus term it, comes in. But even "multiple attestation" should be applied circumspectly.

For instance, since modern research appears to have achieved consensus that some written details in GMark, for instance, have been simply transcribed directly in GMatthew and GLuke, one can dismiss such details as purely reflective of one source, GMark, and not three. In such instances, "multiple attestation" is not relevant.

But on the other hand, if contexts for other passages/details in GMatthew and/or GLuke and/or both appear independent from GMark, then "multiple attestation" is more relevant, not in proving anything (again, this is dealing with ancient history, remember), but in rendering such details relatively more rather than less likely. A series of shared sayings falls in the latter independent category.

The dreaded consensus has now determined that a nexus of shared characteristics bears out a singularity of voice and style in a small "family" of sayings found in GMatthew, in GLuke -- and even in GThomas, even though the latter may be anywhere from as early as GMark to as late as the early 2nd century. That nexus of shared characteristics comprises, among other things, peculiarly Aramaic structures of speech, a highly colloquial way of framing certain statements, and/or a heavy dependence on the mundane details of living day-to-day in order to make a point.

Taking together the foundation of the least suspect Paulines, the scanty details in Tacitus/Antiqs. 20 and the shared sayings multiply attested in GMatthew, GLuke and GThomas, it is possible to extract an account of an eccentric rabbi who aroused the ire of the Roman authorities and got nailed.

Galatians 1:18:

1 Corinthians 2:8:

1 Corinthians 7:10:

1 Corinthians 9:5:

1 Corinthians 9:14:

1 Corinthians 11:23:

Romans 6:4:

Luke 11:21-2:

Luke 11:33:

Luke 12:2:

Luke 12:10:

Luke 13:18-9:

Luke 13:30:

Luke 19:26:

Josephus: Antiquities, 20 -- "Since Ananus was that kind of person, and because he perceived an opportunity with Festus having died and Albinus not yet arrived, he called a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought James, the brother of Jesus (who is called 'Messiah') along with some others. He accused them of transgressing the law, and handed them over for stoning."

Tacitus: Annals, 15:44 -- "But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."



Now, these are only the basics from which the most likely biographical details can be reconstructed. Far more sophisticated work is then possible, once one has established the basics culled out here. Striking family resemblances are readily detectable between these basic cites and other related material that is also multiply attested -- in the stricter construction of that term. Chiefly, this involves the sayings: The Luke sayings cited here have similarities to additional sayings similarly shared between GMatthew and GLuke and bearing similar linguistic characteristics. Much in the GLuke Sermon On The Plain, for instance (the bulk of Luke, Chapter 6), seems cut from the identical cloth as the cites here, and since portions of it also appear in different contexts in GMatthew, it appears _likely_ (that dreaded word again) that the bulk of the GLuke Sermon On The Plain in Luke's Chapter 6 may be just as fully historical as the cites provided above.

Extrapolations of such a sort are highly useful in determining which aspects of the extant data are more or less likely to be related to all the cites provided above. But that is a complex exercise requiring intimate knowledge of the myriad idioms in Koine Greek, of a level that I cannot possibly pretend to have.
... Rather, it's the consilience of various pieces of data that, together, make Jesus of Nazareth's historicity more likely than not.

...

I will however ... take the risk of suggesting that there are two tiers of conclusions as to the Jesus-the-human-teacher bio: The top tier, based strictly on the cites provided above, concludes that Jesus was a victim of Roman jurisprudence, because he introduced a new kind of superstition of an uncertain nature, geared partly around social redress (see Luke 13:30). He had at least two brothers, one of whom was named James. The second tier takes all of that as a given, and then, extrapolating from further Aramaicisms and other similar stylistic ticks and textual patterns, enfolds the additional notion that Jesus called for a radically uniform even-handed approach to all people, enemies included, a call that didn't sit well with various demographics of all sorts, leaving him vulnerable to the very first trumped-up charge that might come along. ...

Stone

It isn't as simple as pointing to one or two lines in Josephus, there is a lot of work that goes into these things.
 
Your argument might carry some weight if you could demonstrate that you had some working knowledge of how History is studied.

We have seen no evidence of that.

Your HJ argument carries zero weight because you cannot show you have a working knowledge of EVIDENCE.

You seem to think opinion trumps evidence.

You have no idea how history is done.

You discredit your sources and then turn around and use them for the history of your assumed HJ.

You admit Paul was a Liar yet accept Galatians 1.19 as an historical event without any contemporary corroboration and when the Pauline Corpus is riddled with forgeries or false attribution and events that could NOT have happened as described.

The Pauline Corpus is really a PERJURED source written at least 100 years after the time of King Aretas.
 
...
The Pauline Corpus is really a PERJURED source written at least 100 years after the time of King Aretas.

Do you have a source for that opinion of yours? It is definitely not shared by any Scholars that I have heard of.

What evidence do you have that the Pauline corpus was composed in the second century?
 
If these writers did encounter that weird doctrine, they reacted as one would expect:
Tacitus: a most mischievous superstition
Pliny: depraved, excessive superstition.
These comment, I have no doubt, were their responses to the idea of dead people walking about, and similar Christian notions.

Except Greek and Roman religion had beliefs that had somewhat similar elements like Dionysus/Bacchus and there was that story of Asclepius who was killed by a thunderbolt for bringing back someone (in some versions it was Hippolytus son of Theseus) from the dead. Then there was that story of Orpheus descending into the underworld to bring back his dead lover or the story of Heracles who while he was in the underworld doing one of his labors rescued a relative who had had the bright idea of trying to steal Hades' wife.

It's on par with a Baptist saying that Dunker John's beliefs were a most mischievous superstition or depraved, excessive superstition and not explaining themselves.

It is even wonkier when you remember that Pliny gives some details regarding this "depraved, excessive superstition": "They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food."

Either Pliny is leaving out some important details or his moral compass even by 2nd century Roman standards was totally off kilter.
 
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Did you miss this post from Stone?



It isn't as simple as pointing to one or two lines in Josephus, there is a lot of work that goes into these things.

Stone's post is of very little value for the HJ argument.

He only confirms the Pauline Corpus is riddled with forgeries and that Scholars don't really know what Paul wrote, when he wrote and when Paul really lived.

It is absurd, a failure of logic at any level, to assume that writings under the name of Paul are authentic without external corroborative evidence.

By the way, please tell Stone that gLuke is a forgery and riddled with discrepancies, obvious fiction, and events that could NOT have happened.
 
Except Greek and Roman religion had beliefs that had somewhat similar elements like Dionysus/Bacchus and there was that story of Asclepius who was killed by a thunderbolt for bringing back someone (in some versions it was Hippolytus son of Theseus) from the dead. Then there was that story of Orpheus descending into the underworld to bring back his dead lover or the story of Heracles who while he was in the underworld doing one of his labors rescued a relative who had had the bright idea of trying to steal Hades' wife ...

Either Pliny is leaving out some important details or his moral compass even by 2nd century Roman standards was totally off kilter.
if you think Pliny or other typical members of the Roman aristocracy literally believed in the stories of
Dionysus or Orpheus in the days of Trajan, you might have a point. But I'm afraid you're going to have to take that up with Pliny.
 
Stone's post is of very little value for the HJ argument.

He only confirms the Pauline Corpus is riddled with forgeries and that Scholars don't really know what Paul wrote, when he wrote and when Paul really lived.

It is absurd, a failure of logic at any level, to assume that writings under the name of Paul are authentic without external corroborative evidence.

By the way, please tell Stone that gLuke is a forgery and riddled with discrepancies, obvious fiction, and events that could NOT have happened.

Then it is safe to say that you don't understand the concept of textual analysis nor how it is used in Historical studies.

Thanks.

Still waiting for a source for your claim about the Pauline corpus being a second or third century fake.
 
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